maybe we should learn a thing or two from the retro computers fans!

[retroillucid]

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release.

 

Simply because the publisher is not always authorized to do so

[opcode]

of course they can do what they wan`t, just pointing they could make some money with the "virtual" part of their work

We covered a lot of the same territory last year in a thread I started, in which I attempted to explore digital distribution for homebrew games and to persuade others--unsuccessfully, I think--of the merits of the idea. I'm still formulating my thoughts on the issue, but my conclusion is that, while there are possibilities in that direction (given the right distribution model and the right non-intrusive disincentives against casual piracy), neither homebrew authors/publishers nor users are ready for the idea as yet.

 

For the time being, if you really want it that badly, just buy the cartridge. If for some reason you specifically need a ROM, buy the cartridge and dump it yourself (and don't give the ROM away after you dump it).

 

I just don't think digital distribution can work if we don't have some kind of mechanist to protect us against piracy. Unfortunately the only way I could see that happening is if we had a "flash cartridge" with some sort of protection scheme, where the ROM wouldn’t run if copied or if the special cartridge wasn't used. And honestly I don’t see that happening unless one of the publishers here design and release such a device.

It is a delicate topic no doubt. As Pixelboy mentioned each game requires a ton of money to be published the way it is, with nice boxes and manuals, and then there might be some additional costs, like cartridge PCBs, etc. A project like DKA plus the SGM will most certainly cross the $10K barrier when all is said and done. And that is all a gamble, we never know for sure if we are going to make our money back. Usually we do but sometimes it may takes months, even years. One of my last games, Road Fighter, was a poor seller, I don't think it has ever crossed the 100 copies after all those years, and that means lost money.

On the other hand, and that is the sad reality of things, special hardware offers me some extra level of protection, as long as it doesn’t get emulated by software (emulators) or hardware (flash carts), which means that unfortunately I may be forced to no longer publish details on the internals of any of my hardware.

[NIAD]

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release.

 

Simply because the publisher is not always authorized to do so

YES, I know all to well and will have to keep trolling the MarketPlace and eBay for that illusive CiB Ghost(s) & Zombies! I knew I should have ponied up and got that one on eBay last month.

[retroillucid]

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release.

 

Simply because the publisher is not always authorized to do so

YES, I know all to well and will have to keep trolling the MarketPlace and eBay for that illusive CiB Ghost(s) & Zombies! I knew I should have ponied up and got that one on eBay last month.

 

If you know how many messages I receive(d) about people wanting this one!

I would not mind to make more copies but Youki must give me the OK before, and in the end, I'll respect his decision

[sermajic]

did you look at xbox live arcade lately?

 

they`re not selling any less games because they also offer them as downloads!

 

and we all know its so easy to pirate them with an usb stick if you google a bit, so the drm cart issue logic does not work here

 

but then...

 

...good luck living under that rock...

[bfg.gamepassion]

did you look at xbox live arcade lately?

 

they`re not selling any less games because they also offer them as downloads!

 

and we all know its so easy to pirate them with an usb stick if you google a bit, so the drm cart issue logic does not work here

 

but then...

 

...good luck living under that rock...

 

???!!! They offer their game as DEMO, you must buy it to unlock all the game feature. And i think i can google during 100 years, there is no tools to put the XBLA games on USB stick to pirate them. Don't use false example to impose your opinion.

[potatohead]

I think it's all very simple. There are different scenes, on different hardware platforms. I personally enjoy seeing most of the process in the open, because how the game is built, the development story, code being bantered around, hacks, etc... are all part of the experience, just as the box, cart, etc... is. A secret thing holds little value for me personally. How it was done today matters, so that's where my choices are.

 

So then, if the scene isn't well matched to how any of us desires to see things happen, there are always other hardware platforms, producing in the way we would like to see it done, etc...

 

Nobody is trapped on these things, and I suggest some exploration into both other machines, and or building your own carts, games, etc... is far more rewarding than trying to convince somebody to do things in ways they don't believe will make sense.

 

In the end, the better means and methods will simply trump the lesser ones, and we all are happy over time. I'm not suggesting anybody do anything other than what they feel is right for them. What I am suggesting is where you desire things to be done differently, either step up and do them, or move to a scene better matched to your particular tastes. There are a LOT of choices you know.

 

Where there is drama, it all gets crappy quick. Box the stuff up, and step into another scene that is better aligned to your tastes. I've got one machine archived that way right now, with NO regrets. Hell, I might not ever open it again, and the one thing that got me there was this kind of shit. (Jaguar, if you need to know.)

 

I'm off on Apple, still liking the open VCS, Propeller now, and I don't think I'll look back. Boxed it up when somebody told me I was more the thief than not for simply trying to enjoy the art of it all.

Edited June 24, 2011 by potatohead

[classics]

There are some very interesting and valid points on both sides. I think each publisher needs to weigh the pro's and con's and make a decision that works best for them.

 

DRM is certainly possible. Making a ROM image that could only ever run on the SD cartridge is not difficult.

 

However, I also don't think it's wise to pretend that making sales of ROM images available would not impact sales of real games. It will. If there are still unsold copies of new in the box games sitting around, selling the ROM image will probably have a noticeable impact on the sales of those remaining items.

 

Perhaps selling ROM images is something best reserved for the 'end of life' of a product, when the publisher knows he/she won't ever be making any more real copies.

 

For example, I did so many conversions/ports for the Atari 5200 that at some point along the way, I personally doubled the entire library of games available for the system.

 

Most of those ROM images were released when I did the conversions. I also made relatively cheap reproduction cartridges with labels available at the same time for many of them, usually for under $25 shipped.

 

I don't think many of those games ever sold a single cart. In retrospect, if my goal had been to sell actual cartridges, then I think it would have been unwise to release the ROM images at the same moment as the cartridges.

 

A few of the conversions that I didn't release right away did sell copies though. Not a lot, probably less than 30 each over a period of many years, but a significant difference. I also made absolutely zero effort to sell them, so that may have played a part too.

 

An interesting side note to this is that people were so annoyed by those few titles not being available to download, a well respected moderator here actually obtained one of my old ROM multi-carts, made a rig to dump it and started selling copies of those games in Marketplace. This bears some resemblance to the incident in the CV community last year with ROM images being sold, which is why I mention it.

 

It should also probably be considered that there is a somewhat different dynamic in the 5200 community, as the consoles dedicated fan base is much smaller than the Colecovision.

 

Steve

[GroovyBee]

Do you offer those 47 games in commercial-grade boxes, with commercial-grade manuals?

 

If you have people pay upfront for whatever you are offering (cart, CIB, CIB deluxe package etc.) by using one or more preorder lists to gauge interest how can you have excess inventory? With the market for our favourite machines to code on being so small it makes more sense to me to make carts for the people wanting them (on your list) than to attempt to forecast the market and make 50 or 100 copies of something that may never sell out.

 

As an up to date example in the 7800 world look at the preorder list for Meteor Shower. It has 39 people on it (so far) and the ROM is available in advance for free.

[ozma wars]

why all these polemics ?

as a gamer..as a collector...I would like a lot of things.

But not all homebrewers are the same and I accept their decisions.

Personally I like old carts and old disks to be played on the real things, aka, old consoles and old homecomputers.

NO emulators.

So, for example, I get all the months approx. a dozen of NEW just released games for C64 (no Spectrum please, terrible!) on original new 5 1/4 disks to be played on my 1541 disk driver.

It is true that I can buy 25 new ( and great) games for C64 at the price of 1 new cart for Colecovision...but a pleasure to have a game on his box in new condition, surely worth 40 USD ( but no 45, no 50 )

I accept homebrewers decision and I add that...the day homebrewers will only release games in rom form...will loose a supporter ( may be not the customer, but for sure the supporter..not easy to explain with my bad english, even if customer and supporter, like in my case, are same person ).

have a nice weekend

[Pixelboy]

If you have people pay upfront for whatever you are offering (cart, CIB, CIB deluxe package etc.) by using one or more preorder lists to gauge interest how can you have excess inventory? With the market for our favourite machines to code on being so small it makes more sense to me to make carts for the people wanting them (on your list) than to attempt to forecast the market and make 50 or 100 copies of something that may never sell out.

 

In the case of game boxes, with the german printer company I'm dealing with, I have to order a minimum of 150 copies of each box, regardless of how many I'm actually planning to use. It's pretty expensive, and unused boxes dig a deep hole in one's pocket.

 

For manuals, you probably know how it goes: Have a single manual printed and it costs you something like 20$. Print 100 manuals and each one costs only a few bucks. The more you print, the cheaper it gets. In order to help keep the price of the game down, I'm better off just printing 100 manuals and hope that I'll get rid of them all. The same applies to cartridge label stickers.

 

Carts are a different story: The cost of materials, soldering and assembly is somewhat the same regardless of the number of carts produced. That's how it goes for quantities under 100, anyway.

 

Also, let's not forget styrofoam inserts, which I use in all my boxes. Styrofoam manufacturers also have minimum orders. And while costs are not in the same league as boxes and manuals, there are companies out there who will turn down an order of 39 styrofoam pieces, unless you're willing to pay a lot for machine setup fees and whatnot, which drive the per-unit cost through the roof. So again, you're better off ordering a large quantity (500 to 1000 in the cast of styrofoam inserts) to help keep costs down.

 

 

As an up to date example in the 7800 world look at the preorder list for Meteor Shower. It has 39 people on it (so far) and the ROM is available in advance for free.

With the information I've given above, you can see that I wouldn't release a CV game with box and manual if I could only expect to sell 40 copies. I would have to use cheap-ass boxes and manuals, and I'm not willing to compromise on quality in that way. I didn't get into the CV homebrewing "business" (if we can call it that) to go the easy route. I don't have a problem with other homebrewers settling for "bare minimum" products, as a CV collector I'll buy just about anything that's put on real cartridges, but where Team Pixelboy is concerned, I have high standards and I stand by them.

[youki]

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release.

 

Simply because the publisher is not always authorized to do so

YES, I know all to well and will have to keep trolling the MarketPlace and eBay for that illusive CiB Ghost(s) & Zombies! I knew I should have ponied up and got that one on eBay last month.

 

If you know how many messages I receive(d) about people wanting this one!

I would not mind to make more copies but Youki must give me the OK before, and in the end, I'll respect his decision

 

And as you know already, you don't have my OK and won't have.

I plan to rerelease a version of GnZ in the future , but not that one. It will be an enhanced (or remasterised) version. (a little bit like Georges Lucas did with its first Star war trilogy (don't get me wrong i don't compare me with Lucas!!)). So enhanced game, different boxes.

 

It is a way to thanks first people who bougth my really first colecovision program. This game seems to become a real collector.( i never expected that )

 

And J-F, i remind you , when i proposed the game to you , you estimated the sells potential to 20-25 copies.... And finally you produced 40 and then 60. (and i received some complaint about that, because some buy the game just because it was planed to 25...). Since it is sold out , i have also received severel tens of mail asking me where to find that game.

 

So, i think to not disapoint collectors that bought the game for the "rarity" and to answer to the request of others , the best thing is to do a different version. But not now, because i'm working on anothers coleco project, i don't have time for that. So be patient.

 

About ROM distribution in matter of homebrews , i'm against it is not "retro". In 1982 you would never have a coleco game available online!

[opcode]

Do you offer those 47 games in commercial-grade boxes, with commercial-grade manuals?

 

If you have people pay upfront for whatever you are offering (cart, CIB, CIB deluxe package etc.) by using one or more preorder lists to gauge interest how can you have excess inventory? With the market for our favourite machines to code on being so small it makes more sense to me to make carts for the people wanting them (on your list) than to attempt to forecast the market and make 50 or 100 copies of something that may never sell out.

 

As an up to date example in the 7800 world look at the preorder list for Meteor Shower. It has 39 people on it (so far) and the ROM is available in advance for free.

 

GroovyBee,

 

From my experience preorder lists never worked very well. Pixelboy probably would agree with me. We get this huge preorder list, with some 100 names, and then when the game is finally out only 50~70% of those people are going to actually buy the game. I suspect the rate would be better if I took money in advance, but then I never preorder modern games because I need to pay upfront, which I think is just ridiculous.

I know homebrewers and GameStop aren't the same thing, but I never liked the idea of getting money in advance for those things, because so many things can go wrong during the process and the game could end up never being released.

[sermajic]

you can run full games from usb, they are cracked all over the net, email me if you wan`t the links!

 

 

 

did you look at xbox live arcade lately?

 

they`re not selling any less games because they also offer them as downloads!

 

and we all know its so easy to pirate them with an usb stick if you google a bit, so the drm cart issue logic does not work here

 

but then...

 

...good luck living under that rock...

 

???!!! They offer their game as DEMO, you must buy it to unlock all the game feature. And i think i can google during 100 years, there is no tools to put the XBLA games on USB stick to pirate them. Don't use false example to impose your opinion.

[GroovyBee]

From my experience preorder lists never worked very well. Pixelboy probably would agree with me. We get this huge preorder list, with some 100 names, and then when the game is finally out only 50~70% of those people are going to actually buy the game. I suspect the rate would be better if I took money in advance, but then I never preorder modern games because I need to pay upfront, which I think is just ridiculous.

 

I agree that a percentage of people drop out when it comes to payment time with a preorder. I'd say the drop out rate for 7800 games is probably up to 25% (depends on the title). However, if you make the number of games to fill the exact number of people who pay then you don't have inventory left. Having said that, I do make more carts than I need just in case they don't work on the purchaser's machine for whatever reason and I need to swap them out.

 

I'm not saying that handing out ROMs for free before a cart run works for everybody. I'm just saying that if you offer a multi-tier release e.g. cart on its own (least expensive) through to deluxe e.g. cart, instructions, box and maybe other goodies (most expensive) then there is a price point for everybody.

[sermajic]

what if you want the "retro" thing in a shelf

and the convenience of a file on your sd cart on your console?

 

don`t you think there`s a market there too?

 

 

About ROM distribution in matter of homebrews , i'm against it is not "retro". In 1982 you would never have a coleco game available online!

[sermajic]

why all these polemics ?

as a gamer..as a collector...I would like a lot of things.

But not all homebrewers are the same and I accept their decisions.

Personally I like old carts and old disks to be played on the real things, aka, old consoles and old homecomputers.

NO emulators.

So, for example, I get all the months approx. a dozen of NEW just released games for C64 (no Spectrum please, terrible!) on original new 5 1/4 disks to be played on my 1541 disk driver.

It is true that I can buy 25 new ( and great) games for C64 at the price of 1 new cart for Colecovision...but a pleasure to have a game on his box in new condition, surely worth 40 USD ( but no 45, no 50 )

I accept homebrewers decision and I add that...the day homebrewers will only release games in rom form...will loose a supporter ( may be not the customer, but for sure the supporter..not easy to explain with my bad english, even if customer and supporter, like in my case, are same person ).

have a nice weekend

 

 

in no way is this a polemic,

just thoughts

 

am i less a gamer than you if i prefer my c64 games on real hardwarde,BUT

with ide64 and not the trouble of old 5 1/4 disks?

[sermajic]

There are some very interesting and valid points on both sides. I think each publisher needs to weigh the pro's and con's and make a decision that works best for them.

 

DRM is certainly possible. Making a ROM image that could only ever run on the SD cartridge is not difficult.

 

However, I also don't think it's wise to pretend that making sales of ROM images available would not impact sales of real games. It will. If there are still unsold copies of new in the box games sitting around, selling the ROM image will probably have a noticeable impact on the sales of those remaining items.

 

Perhaps selling ROM images is something best reserved for the 'end of life' of a product, when the publisher knows he/she won't ever be making any more real copies.

 

For example, I did so many conversions/ports for the Atari 5200 that at some point along the way, I personally doubled the entire library of games available for the system.

 

Most of those ROM images were released when I did the conversions. I also made relatively cheap reproduction cartridges with labels available at the same time for many of them, usually for under $25 shipped.

 

I don't think many of those games ever sold a single cart. In retrospect, if my goal had been to sell actual cartridges, then I think it would have been unwise to release the ROM images at the same moment as the cartridges.

 

A few of the conversions that I didn't release right away did sell copies though. Not a lot, probably less than 30 each over a period of many years, but a significant difference. I also made absolutely zero effort to sell them, so that may have played a part too.

 

An interesting side note to this is that people were so annoyed by those few titles not being available to download, a well respected moderator here actually obtained one of my old ROM multi-carts, made a rig to dump it and started selling copies of those games in Marketplace. This bears some resemblance to the incident in the CV community last year with ROM images being sold, which is why I mention it.

 

It should also probably be considered that there is a somewhat different dynamic in the 5200 community, as the consoles dedicated fan base is much smaller than the Colecovision.

 

Steve

 

 

i partially agree,

though you games will always be available online eventually,

it`s just a matter of time before someone puts it out

 

so why not taking some money off it before that happens?

[opcode]

you can run full games from usb, they are cracked all over the net, email me if you wan`t the links!

 

Are you implying that you use illegally copied games on your XBOX? And you come here to ask us to release our ROMs?

[sermajic]

you can run full games from usb, they are cracked all over the net, email me if you wan`t the links!

 

Are you implying that you use illegally copied games on your XBOX? And you come here to ask us to release our ROMs?

 

 

 

of course not!

just implying that we all know they are out

[sermajic]

why all these polemics ?

as a gamer..as a collector...I would like a lot of things.

But not all homebrewers are the same and I accept their decisions.

Personally I like old carts and old disks to be played on the real things, aka, old consoles and old homecomputers.

NO emulators.

So, for example, I get all the months approx. a dozen of NEW just released games for C64 (no Spectrum please, terrible!) on original new 5 1/4 disks to be played on my 1541 disk driver.

It is true that I can buy 25 new ( and great) games for C64 at the price of 1 new cart for Colecovision...but a pleasure to have a game on his box in new condition, surely worth 40 USD ( but no 45, no 50 )

I accept homebrewers decision and I add that...the day homebrewers will only release games in rom form...will loose a supporter ( may be not the customer, but for sure the supporter..not easy to explain with my bad english, even if customer and supporter, like in my case, are same person ).

have a nice weekend

 

 

in no way is this a polemic,

just thoughts

 

am i less a gamer than you if i prefer my c64 games on real hardwarde,BUT

with ide64 and not the trouble of old 5 1/4 disks?

 

40us$ ,but no way 45 us$?

really don`t know what you mean...

 

and despite the c64 was my first computer , i now cherish the speccy,

open up a bit...

Edited June 24, 2011 by sermajic

[bfg.gamepassion]

you can run full games from usb, they are cracked all over the net, email me if you wan`t the links!

 

 

 

did you look at xbox live arcade lately?

 

they`re not selling any less games because they also offer them as downloads!

 

and we all know its so easy to pirate them with an usb stick if you google a bit, so the drm cart issue logic does not work here

 

but then...

 

...good luck living under that rock...

 

???!!! They offer their game as DEMO, you must buy it to unlock all the game feature. And i think i can google during 100 years, there is no tools to put the XBLA games on USB stick to pirate them. Don't use false example to impose your opinion.

 

I'm not interested in pirated game ... I have already more than 800 games in my collection from Atari 2600 to XBOX 360 and not enough life remaining to finish them all. And with the ColecoVision i pass more time developing game than playing (And my head is full of idea for tons of new games original/adaptation !!).

 

BUT ... i'm interested about your link, because i'm sure it is impossible to play game on USB with a 360 without modding the console. And i'm sure it's impossible to play XBLA games even with a modified console.

 

Edit : And i hope it's impossible, because Microsoft allow "Homebrew" developpement on the XBOX360 for a minimal fee ... (99$ a year).

http://create.msdn.com/en-US/home/about/how_it_works

Edited June 24, 2011 by bfg.gamepassion

[+Yurkie]

With the ColecoVision, there are very few Hardcore fans. Posting roms would cheapen the whole ColecoVision scene to the point that there would be almost no interested whatsoever.

 

Anytime you give things away, you make it seem less desirable. Of course everybody wants "something for nothing" but once you they have it, they disappear and wait for the next hand out.

 

I personally resent the OP coming into the CV forums and starting this shit, this thread and all like it should not be "locked" they should be "deleted", and a warning that if another is started they will be permanently banned from AtariAge.

[sermajic]

you can run full games from usb, they are cracked all over the net, email me if you wan`t the links!

 

 

 

did you look at xbox live arcade lately?

 

they`re not selling any less games because they also offer them as downloads!

 

and we all know its so easy to pirate them with an usb stick if you google a bit, so the drm cart issue logic does not work here

 

but then...

 

...good luck living under that rock...

 

???!!! They offer their game as DEMO, you must buy it to unlock all the game feature. And i think i can google during 100 years, there is no tools to put the XBLA games on USB stick to pirate them. Don't use false example to impose your opinion.

 

I'm not interested in pirated game ... I have already more than 800 games in my collection from Atari 2600 to XBOX 360 and not enough life remaining to finish them all. And with the ColecoVision i pass more time developing game than playing (And my head is full of idea for tons of new games original/adaptation !!).

 

BUT ... i'm interested about your link, because i'm sure it is impossible to play game on USB with a 360 without modding the console. And i'm sure it's impossible to play XBLA games even with a modified console.

 

 

oh!!! 800 games...

 

you don`t need to mod the console,

and just knowing how to do it does not mean you are or will be a pirate!

 

i could easily dump carts,

again it can be googled in seconds

does that mean i will do it?

 

of course not

 

pd:about the 360,

google is your friend...

check at taringa

its all over there

[GroovyBee]

With the ColecoVision, there are very few Hardcore fans. Posting roms would cheapen the whole ColecoVision scene to the point that there would be almost no interested whatsoever.

 

Anytime you give things away, you make it seem less desirable. Of course everybody wants "something for nothing" but once you they have it, they disappear and wait for the next hand out.

 

I don't agree. The 7800 scene is probably the same size (if not smaller) than the CV scene and people still go nuts for new 7800 releases on cart even when the ROM is freely available.