High Quality NES Clone?

[PeculiarSatyr]

I'd probably drop over $100 on a quality built NES clone with good output (RGB, S-video) and compatibility (most games).

[Rex Dart]

Because there ain't enough buyers to make such a product worth producing.

[StoneAgeGamer]

You would, but would many more? Probably not.

 

I am not saying a high quality clone will never be done, but its not likely. There's a pricing threshold with clones it seems.

 

The Generation NEX did not offer the outputs you want, but the build quality was good, better than any clone I have seen. Unfortunately their NOAC was terrible, but I think its the price that killed it and put Messiah out of business. $60 and you only got one controller. Now lets talk $100+ and its going to be tough to sell enough. Yes if quality was great and compatibility was perfect you may sell a lot to the hardcore crowd, but really in the grand scheme of classic gaming that's a minority.

 

That being said no one has attempted it, maybe that's all it will take. I would carry it day one if someone did. However if I had the cash to produce something like this I wouldn't it would be a huge risk with really very little reward.

[godslabrat]

The Generation NEX did not offer the outputs you want, but the build quality was good, better than any clone I have seen. Unfortunately their NOAC was terrible, but I think its the price that killed it and put Messiah out of business. $60 and you only got one controller. Now lets talk $100+ and its going to be tough to sell enough. Yes if quality was great and compatibility was perfect you may sell a lot to the hardcore crowd, but really in the grand scheme of classic gaming that's a minority.

 

I've always wondered about the NEX, and have thought it must have offered the wrong features at the right price. $60 is more expensive than any current clone, but not by all that much. Only offering one controller (and not making it super-clear that it was the coveted wireless controller) was a mistake. However, the build quality was good. On the other hand, the NOAC was terrible, and they'd advertised it being tested with compatibility in mind (this turned out to be a bald-faced lie). On top of that, it did offer the FC connector, a feature found on very few US clones... probably of no interest to the average user, but very desirable to diehards.

 

Since you've got the best viewpoint to decide what does and doesn't sell in the clone market, do you think the NEX would have been a better seller if it had the same build quality, offered two wired controllers (and never bothered with the wireless ones), no FC port, and FC Mobile II-level compatibility? Or to put it in other terms, do you think most clone buyers make their buying decision based on build quality and/or compatibility?

 

I've made my feelings on the NEX very clear in the past, but that doesn't mean I don't see value in the concept.

[HatefulGravey]

The price of the standard NES is low enough that I see no reason to bother with a clone like this. Even if you want to replace the 72 pin in the machine its cheap and easy, and honestly you can restore the one in the machine with very little effort. Why spend $100 on a clone when you can get an NES for $40 with controllers, spend maybe $10 on a new 72 pin (or nothing and retore the one in the machine) and have the real deal?

 

I assume its just about the out put on the machine. I have seen some very nice things done with the NES in this regard too. There are plans out there for s video and solid AV, and that is as much or more then you need on a system like that.

[Rex Dart]

Why spend $100 on a clone when you can get an NES for $40 with controllers, spend maybe $10 on a new 72 pin (or nothing and retore the one in the machine) and have the real deal?

 

 

Because his proposed clone would include fancy video outputs out-of-the-box... the cart connector wasn't an issue.

[HatefulGravey]

Why spend $100 on a clone when you can get an NES for $40 with controllers, spend maybe $10 on a new 72 pin (or nothing and retore the one in the machine) and have the real deal?

 

 

Because his proposed clone would include fancy video outputs out-of-the-box... the cart connector wasn't an issue.

 

I understand wanting these things out of the box, and that would be handy. The point I was making is you can get most of that from the original hardware with less money. The original hardware already has AV outs, (mono sound but it wasn't really made for sterio anyway and you can split the mono sound for few bucks at radio shack) and I can't see the NES needing RGB or S Video.

 

The reaon I mentioned the connector process was the show that the original hardware can often be made to function like new with little effort. This was mentioned to negate the arguement I often find in these conversations about how little work is needed to get a clone to work as all that hardware and connections are new.

 

I also mentioned the ability to add the wanted video out put as a mod because there is little chance that such a clone wil be made any time soon. If the OP wanted those things bad enough to spend $100 on them maybe they would want them bad enough to do some research and build what they want.

[StoneAgeGamer]

Since you've got the best viewpoint to decide what does and doesn't sell in the clone market, do you think the NEX would have been a better seller if it had the same build quality, offered two wired controllers (and never bothered with the wireless ones), no FC port, and FC Mobile II-level compatibility? Or to put it in other terms, do you think most clone buyers make their buying decision based on build quality and/or compatibility?

 

Honestly I wish I could answer this, but the problem is that there has yet to be an example of such a system to really gauge how it would sell. There has yet to be a clone that got virtually everything right. Every single clone I have dealt with has had some significant flaw. Design, build quality, terrible controllers, lack of outputs, the list goes on.

 

The price of the standard NES is low enough that I see no reason to bother with a clone like this. Even if you want to replace the 72 pin in the machine its cheap and easy, and honestly you can restore the one in the machine with very little effort. Why spend $100 on a clone when you can get an NES for $40 with controllers, spend maybe $10 on a new 72 pin (or nothing and retore the one in the machine) and have the real deal?

 

I assume its just about the out put on the machine. I have seen some very nice things done with the NES in this regard too. There are plans out there for s video and solid AV, and that is as much or more then you need on a system like that.

 

I would agree with you on a personal level, however if this were the case almost all products (excluding food) would rarely be bought new. However we know people are willing to pay (in many cases) quite a bit more for something new. If no one ever bought anything new then no one would be able to buy anything used.

 

Remember we are assuming this $100+ clone is high quality, perfect compatibility, and offers outputs that are not available on the NES without modification. Although how well it would sell is questionable, because this is such a niche market. I would not fault anyone who bought this over a used NES and in some cases I may even suggest it.

[Ace_1]

I do have a theory as to why Famiclones nowadays aren't as good as they can be: none of the clone manufacturers seem to develop their NOACs in-house. They seem to purchase NOACs from various companies and slap them onto a small motherboard without really questioning how good they are. This is the reason why we still have NOAC-based clones with reversed sound channel duties on the square waves. Those NOACs are made by UMC(this company made chipsets for 386 and 486 motherboards), and UMC's discrete 2A03 clone from back when Famiclones had full motherboards already had reversed sound channel duties, so what we've got here is essentially poorly reverse-engineered technology from the late '80s/early '90s. I believe UMC themselves came up with the NOAC, although instead of it being a glop-top chip, it was a surface-mount ASIC. Even Famiclones with correct sound channel duties have other sound issues, which are the following:

 

1) What appears to be filtering on the square waves(play Rad Racer on an NES then play it on a RetroBit RES, RetroDuo or FC Twin and you'll know what I mean)

2) DPCM is screwed up and barely audible

3) White noise is too loud

 

I still have not figured out which company makes NOACs with correct sound channel duties and screwed-up DPCM, but one thing's for sure: they weren't made by UMC. From what I've read, back when full motherboard Famiclones were being produced, clones of the 2A03 and 2C02 were made by not just UMC, but also Hitachi and Toshiba. I don't know if those are any different than UMC's parts. I'd like to get my hands on Hitachi and Toshiba 2A03s and 2C02s so I can see whether those are used on the more accurate NOACs.

 

This stuff is also true of other console clones. Case and point: the RetroN3. I found a fake MegaDrive 2 which uses the exact same GOAC(TCT-6801) as the RetroN3. I don't know if the video and audio are the same, though, as Geniclones(and real Genesis systems, for that matter) all have different A/V circuitry.

 

The same is true with Super NES clones as well. Look at modern-day Super NES clones(aside from the non-Yobo-jeweled FC Twin), they all use the same three TCT chips for the CPU, twin PPUs and SPC700-based sound hardware. This is why there are very little differences between Super NES clones. The differences all boil down to the audio circuity used, the video encoder used and the strength of the video signal itself.

[PeculiarSatyr]

Why spend $100 on a clone when you can get an NES for $40 with controllers, spend maybe $10 on a new 72 pin (or nothing and retore the one in the machine) and have the real deal?

 

 

Because his proposed clone would include fancy video outputs out-of-the-box... the cart connector wasn't an issue.

 

I also mentioned the ability to add the wanted video out put as a mod because there is little chance that such a clone wil be made any time soon. If the OP wanted those things bad enough to spend $100 on them maybe they would want them bad enough to do some research and build what they want.

 

I unfortunately lack the skills to do mods much simpler than a NES RGB mod. Also, the required parts for a RGB NES or famicom mod seem to be pretty expensive. Getting my hands on a playchoice-10 PPU seems like it will be difficult enough by itself and will probably run over $80. On top of that the cost of a NES2 or AV Famicom as well as the cost of commisioning a skilled modder to do that work....We are talking a few hundred dollars easily from what I understand?

[DickNixonArisen]

I dunno, it's not that hard. What's a clean original NES deck w/cords and one controller/one game worth, 30$? 40 at most? It has perfect compatibility!

 

 

I actually like my NEX a lot. I have a yobo, the NEX, and way too many toaster NES's... I end up playing the NEX frequently. Also, the package I bought had two wired controllers and NO wireless ones; the wireless ones were sold separately for nearly as much as the system was. I paid 20 retail for the NEX; I think it started at sixty. The folks in the store tried their damndest to convince me that it had a SNES port; they did not believe in famicoms in the way that most modern men do not believe in fairies. I actually went back to the store with the system, a fami cart, and a SNES cart. I like having the fami slot plenty; I use a Gyromite-based adaptor (hereafter known as a "gyrodapter") on my toasters, but why not have a nice and easy slot in the top? it works well.

 

Seating a cart in the NEX can be a minor hassle. Looks and size-wise, i'd rate it highly.

 

I haven't noticed sound issues, but I'm very much not an audiophile. Compatibility, for me, has never been an issue. I own 300-400 something NES games, and the only one I even like that doesn't play on clones seems to be paperboy. I can live with that.

[Hatta]

It was only recently that we got a high quality emulator(nestopia) for the NES. I would expect a hardware project to be a lot harder to pull off.

[Reaperman]

I'm not sure that high quality clones have to cost much more.

 

all of the 'on a chip' systems get updated quite frequently--exactly how much more would it cost suggest that on the next chip revision that it output rgb and s-video on the chip? It deals with them internally, so probably not much. They might even *save* money by outputting to a standard playstation connector instead of RCA. (I have a gba tv-out that does that)

 

Hell, really zazz it up. Windowed case, Remote control, and sound reactive, multi-color led underglow increases the cost by almost nothing. Why not go nuts?--cheap sega clones have been popping up with internal flashcarts, I'm guessing that even *that* isn't an expensive upgrade.

 

It only starts to get really expensive when you add an internal fog machine and programmable laser show.

 

But if they make a clone that really works, and has nothing left to improve on it, how are they going to get us to buy the 2012 model when it comes out?

Edited July 11, 2011 by Reaperman

[StoneAgeGamer]

I'm not sure that high quality clones have to cost much more.

 

all of the 'on a chip' systems get updated quite frequently--exactly how much more would it cost suggest that on the next one that it output rgb and s-video on the chip? It deals with them internally, so probably not much. They might even *save* money by outputting to a standard playstation connector instead of RCA. (I have a gba tv-out that does that)

 

Hell, really zazz it up. Windowed case, Remote control, and sound reactive, multi-color led underglow increases the cost by almost nothing. Why not go nuts?--cheap sega clones have been popping up with internal flashcarts, I'm guessing that even *that* isn't an expensive upgrade.

 

But if they make a clone that really works, and has nothing left to improve on it, how are they going to get us to buy the 2012 model when it comes out?

 

Little things you wouldn't think would change the cost much do and many of them are upfront costs. Just changing the mold costs a lot of money. Also look at the plastic used with most of those clones, its not very good and usually painted and not actual colored plastic. Just using nicer plastic will raise costs. Adding something else that adds another step to the production process costs money. Every little bit quickly adds up.

 

The last thing to consider is how many of these clones are actually sold. I don't think its as many as we think because even with the popularity of retro gaming, its still a niche market. Lower production runs also add to costs exponentially.

 

Honestly I used to think the same way, but looking into possible productions costs for my own projects I have realized how expensive it can really get when you start upping quality, its not a gradually ramp up. Its a sharp curve up.

[Reaperman]

Honestly I used to think the same way, but looking into possible productions costs for my own projects I have realized how expensive it can really get when you start upping quality, its not a gradually ramp up. Its a sharp curve up.

I do hear that, and can see where costs might really go up--not on everything, I still see some cheap improvements. On one hand, I want revolutionary change in clone quality immediately, but the steady pace of 'while we are redesigning it anyway' improvements have really come a long way. Anybody with an FC Mobile II and a Super-joy-cutie-honeydew-player-1600 from 5-10 years ago can see a huge difference.

 

If I were a multi-millionaire, I think I'd start on the path back to living in a cardboard box by making rack-mounted clone systems.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Reaperman

[NightSprinter]

Very insightful, SAG. I can't even imagine what the costs to make actual reproductions of the chips (to avoid the glop-top) would even become..