1450 XLD motherboard build, assorted questions

[Vandal968]

Okay, just posted up one of the first technical docs, here are the PAL chip decoding and equations for the 1400XL boards...

 

http://www.atarimuseum.com/whatsnew/whatsnew.html

 

More to follow.

 

Curt

Awesome. Thanks Curt

 

I just heard back from Brad over at Best. The 1450 mobo's are officially SOLD-OUT as of last night. The aggravating part is that they've been in stock at least 4 years since they are in Catalog 10 which was published in 2007 and were likely available in earlier catalogs as-well. They sold out in just FIVE DAYS after I started this thread. The worst part is that I spoke to Brad on Friday before they were sold out to place an order for another one and some support chips (figured I might as well build BOTH a 1400XL and a 1450XLD) and they sold-out as he was checking stock for me on these other items. GRRRRRR.... But I guess that's what happens when we've got over 1500 page views on a topic like this...

 

It looks like we will be able to get everything we need to complete these builds. I wasn't positive before, but I"m 99% sure now. We can't get the PAL's from BEST, but with the equations that Curt just posted, we can definitely roll our own. Some more things to consider:

 

1. When I asked Brad if he had any more of the 1450 power supplies or plastic case parts he laughed. For a long time.

He did mention that a PC power-supply would work, but that would be way too clunky. So, please keep your eyes open for a 12v/5v supply that might look appropriate and be sure to share the news here. Actually, be sure to share it with me first

 

2. I have been unable to locate a telephone matching transformer with the correct footprint. The lead spacing needs to be .750" x .500", and it is a 600:600 ratio. Best doesn't have them and I went through EVERY matching transformer on Digikey, as well as cross-checking other Atari modems. None match the footprint we need. The good news is that this isn't a show-stopper, any appropriate transformer will work, it just won't look as pretty without the right footprint. If anyone finds a source, please let me know.

 

3. It would be good to know how many people are actually going to build these things. I'd like to get a batch of the modem daughterboard PCB's made, I think that the minimum is 10pcs. It should be $5 or $10 each. Any interest?

 

cheers,

v

[Rybags]

Many external disk enclosures use an external brick 12/5 supply. Although I've got doubts the +12 would be a full 3 Amps. But I reckon you'd only need that amount to run 2 floppy drives and I bet there'd be a fair bit of headroom there too.

Just checked 2 of mine, one's 1.5 and the other is 2 Amps on the +12 V.

[Vandal968]

Many external disk enclosures use an external brick 12/5 supply. Although I've got doubts the +12 would be a full 3 Amps. But I reckon you'd only need that amount to run 2 floppy drives and I bet there'd be a fair bit of headroom there too.

Just checked 2 of mine, one's 1.5 and the other is 2 Amps on the +12 V.

LOL. I've got three of them right next to my desk and I didn't even think of that! Thanks.

 

v

Edited August 22, 2011 by Vandal968

[UNIXcoffee928]

Vandal, stupid question, but what will you use for a case? Carve holes into the 1200xl case?

If I go through with making it a 1450XLD I'll try to machine a case from scratch. I've got a pretty well-equipped machine shop in my garage (manual and cnc mills & lathes) so this should be do-able. The big question is whether I'd be able to work something out for the drives. I've heard that they didn't always work properly. If I can make the mobo work, but not the drives, I'll probably finish it as a 1400XL instead.

 

cheers,

v

 

Since you have the milling gear, it might be a better idea to make an alloy look-alike case, rather than to bother with plastic at all. More expensive, per unit, if you were to sell them, but it would be virtually indestructible, and wouldn't sag with a monitor on top. Just a thought.

[flashjazzcat]

Someone posted a link a while back to pictures of his amazing home-made 1450XLD case being constructed. Unfortunately I can't find it again. Anyone?

[candle]

ask beetle

[flashjazzcat]

ask beetle

Of course - who else?

 

I'll check his posts.

[Vandal968]

Someone posted a link a while back to pictures of his amazing home-made 1450XLD case being constructed. Unfortunately I can't find it again. Anyone?

It's here:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/99557-the-1450xld-fake-thread/page__st__50__p__1207216#entry1207216

 

Unbelievably nice workmanship, but a lot of little Atari's lost their lives to make that thing possible. I'm thinking along the lines of machining panels in plastic or aluminum and bonding them together. I got Ben Heck's book since he does some awesome stuff and I was hoping he'd have some good how-to advice, but the book doesn't mention his later and more-impressive cases like the portable Atari 800, just his simpler stuff. Time for a sequel.

 

cheers,

v

[mimo]

That was beetle , can't find the thread right now, but if you find any of beetles posts, the link is in his Sig

[Vandal968]

bob1200XL,

my EE friend says that he has a programmer that will do those PAL chips, it's on an old ISA machine that he is digging out of storage. He said that they would be a lot easier to program if you can dump the PAL's rather than having to do it from the equations. Are you set-up to do that? Could you dump the BIOS while you're at it?

 

These are the chips that we're going to need to program.

 

ID Name Type Photo Atari P/N

U12 PALA1201 (PAL16L8) (MMI 8325) C061919

U7 PALB1201 (PAL16L8) (MMI 8319) C061918

U11 PALC1201 (PAL16R4) (MMI 8319) C061917

 

U6 HANDLER ROM 4K*8 300NS (PROM 2732A-3) C061920

 

Note that the chip types listed for U7 and U11 appear to have been transposed. Based on the photos, U7 & U11 should be the same type of chip (probably PAL16L8) and U12 should be the other type (PAL16R4). Just one of the many, many errors and transpositions in these docs. Atari really was an equal-opportunity employer, they hired a bunch of dyslexics to work in the engineering department

 

cheers,

v

Edited August 22, 2011 by Vandal968

[+bob1200xl]

Yes, I can do that. I prefer to use GALs that emulate those PALs. They use less current and are faster than the originals. But, either way, I can dump them to a file (if the fuses aren't blown). I'm fooling around with a power supply for the 1450 - need some plugs and to verify the wiring. (hate to blow one up!) Once I get it running, I'll make copies and test them.

 

Bob

 

 

 

bob1200XL,

my EE friend says that he has a programmer that will do those PAL chips, it's on an old ISA machine that he is digging out of storage. He said that they would be a lot easier to program if you can dump the PAL's rather than having to do it from the equations. Are you set-up to do that? Could you dump the BIOS while you're at it?

 

These are the chips that we're going to need to program.

 

ID Name Type Photo Atari P/N

U12 PALA1201 (PAL16L8) (MMI 8325) C061919

U7 PALB1201 (PAL16L8) (MMI 8319) C061918

U11 PALC1201 (PAL16R4) (MMI 8319) C061917

 

U6 HANDLER ROM 4K*8 300NS (PROM 2732A-3) C061920

 

Note that the chip types listed for U7 and U11 appear to have been transposed. Based on the photos, U7 & U11 should be the same type of chip (probably PAL16L8) and U12 should be the other type (PAL16R4). Just one of the many, many errors and transpositions in these docs. Atari really was an equal-opportunity employer, they hired a bunch of dyslexics to work in the engineering department

 

cheers,

v

[Vandal968]

Yes, I can do that. I prefer to use GALs that emulate those PALs. They use less current and are faster than the originals. But, either way, I can dump them to a file (if the fuses aren't blown). I'm fooling around with a power supply for the 1450 - need some plugs and to verify the wiring. (hate to blow one up!) Once I get it running, I'll make copies and test them.

 

Bob

Bob,

I just got an unexpected email from Best Electronics. They've found CO61918 and CO61919 ($20ea, ouch), so the only PAL that I'm going to need to make is C061917 (PAL C). It might still be nice to have the dumps available for all three in-case someone needs them later, but if you want to skip dumping those two, you can.

 

cheers,

v

Edited August 24, 2011 by Vandal968

[Vandal968]

One more quick question:

Did Atari ever use, or intend to use, the 1450 mobo in the 1400XL, or was this only meant to go inside the 1450XLD?

 

Since it's very nearly complete, I need to start thinking about cases. I'm tending toward a 1400XL since floppy drives are obsolete and it would be a LOT less work.

 

I'm thinking about cnc machining a new rear panel insert out of abs, and bonding it into place to replace the cutouts on a 1200XL case. That should be relatively simple to do and very authentic looking. Doing a whole XLD case from scratch would be a bear and I don't think that I've got any hope of pulling together an authentic drive controller.

 

v

[+kheller2]

The 1450 board can sit just fine in a 1200XL case. As you mentioned, the rear panel would need to be cut and the cart side plastic cut as well. I have a 1450 in a 1200XL case (where someone hacked the heck out of the rear) and an official side cart plastic that was molded for the 1400/1450 board layout... there seems to be just a hair bit of an alignment issue getting that plastic into a 1200XL case w/o forcing the board slightly -- but I chalk that up to the poor nature in which the 1200XL case was hacked.

 

When building the rear panel insert, remember that the 1450 has jacks that aren't all on the flat surface of a 1200XL case; some are on the curved end pieces left & right. You'll also need to cut some of the vents on the bottom for the PBI to stick out. You can see what I'm talking about in these pics: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/106884-1400xl-internals/page__view__findpost__p__1294965

Edited August 24, 2011 by kheller2

[+bob1200xl]

OK - will do.

 

Get a case ready. Got some parts for the project - almost complete!

 

Bob

 

 

 

Yes, I can do that. I prefer to use GALs that emulate those PALs. They use less current and are faster than the originals. But, either way, I can dump them to a file (if the fuses aren't blown). I'm fooling around with a power supply for the 1450 - need some plugs and to verify the wiring. (hate to blow one up!) Once I get it running, I'll make copies and test them.

 

Bob

Bob,

I just got an unexpected email from Best Electronics. They've found CO61918 and CO61919 ($20ea, ouch), so the only PAL that I'm going to need to make is C061917 (PAL C). It might still be nice to have the dumps available for all three in-case someone needs them later, but if you want to skip dumping those two, you can.

 

cheers,

v

[Vandal968]

OK - will do.

 

Get a case ready. Got some parts for the project - almost complete!

 

Bob

I'm about to start on the case. Your motherboard looks good, I think you're still missing a few parts though A few things that you might want to know ahead of time:

 

1. U9 & U10 are available from Mouser (526-NTE75451B), Digikey doesn't stock them.

2. Don't use a modern DB9 for the joysticks. Modern connectors seem to use 0.035" dia pins whereas the old-school pins were 0.040" this is why most of my joysticks won't work on my Flashback 2, the female ends have gotten stretched out. Best sells the original connectors, I ordered a couple spares and will mic them when they arrive. If they are 0.040" as expected, I'm doing surgery on my FB2.

3. Best also has the TMS99532 modem chip. Unfortunately they shipped another order to me yesterday and I just figured this out today. I've decided to do the same daughtercard arrangement that you have, since I can only be sure of the motherboard configuration with that setup. Need to learn Eagle I guess, at least it's a simple board.

 

I need to figure out where to get those weird-ass bottom entry sockets for the daughtercard. In red

 

cheers,

v

Edited August 24, 2011 by Vandal968

[Curt Vendel]

Okay, good news, I found the PCB films for the 1450XL motherboard, its a 4 layer board. If anyone knows of a board maker that can handle films vs gerber files, let me know...

 

Now, what I also have are the mechanical drawings for the 1400/1450XL systems, so if anyone out there wants to generate the IGS files, then we could look to have some low volume aluminum tooling made and we could make a new run of 1450XL's (not XLD's)

 

 

Just a heads up...

[Curt Vendel]

Well, we could make a new run of 1450XL bottoms and the 1400/1450XL cartridge/port side panel, then the 1200XL tops could be used.

 

 

The 1450 board can sit just fine in a 1200XL case. As you mentioned, the rear panel would need to be cut and the cart side plastic cut as well. I have a 1450 in a 1200XL case (where someone hacked the heck out of the rear) and an official side cart plastic that was molded for the 1400/1450 board layout... there seems to be just a hair bit of an alignment issue getting that plastic into a 1200XL case w/o forcing the board slightly -- but I chalk that up to the poor nature in which the 1200XL case was hacked.

 

When building the rear panel insert, remember that the 1450 has jacks that aren't all on the flat surface of a 1200XL case; some are on the curved end pieces left & right. You'll also need to cut some of the vents on the bottom for the PBI to stick out. You can see what I'm talking about in these pics: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/106884-1400xl-internals/page__view__findpost__p__1294965

[svenski]

This sounds amazing, where do I sign up for a 1400XL?

[+kheller2]

Well, we could make a new run of 1450XL bottoms and the 1400/1450XL cartridge/port side panel, then the 1200XL tops could be used.

 

 

That would probably be easiest. Although, from a practical usefulness point of view, I'd rather have a custom bottom to house a 130xe and jack in the 1200xl top and keyboard. As long as I'm dreaming, let's cut the right side open to slide a 1050 mech into it. The thought of a 1400xl looking case with built in floppy on the side, 128k etc is very enticing.

[Vandal968]

Okay, good news, I found the PCB films for the 1450XL motherboard, its a 4 layer board. If anyone knows of a board maker that can handle films vs gerber files, let me know...

 

Now, what I also have are the mechanical drawings for the 1400/1450XL systems, so if anyone out there wants to generate the IGS files, then we could look to have some low volume aluminum tooling made and we could make a new run of 1450XL's (not XLD's)

 

 

Just a heads up...

Curt,

What's a 1450XL? I'm only familiar with the 1400XL and 1450XLD, was this board appropriate for all three, or was it intended for only the 1450? I can generate the IGES files, how do you want to get the drawings to me? Can you scan them? Or do we need to snail-mail paper copies? Since the openings in the rear of the top cover were also different, I was thinking about molding a panel that could be used to modify a 1200XL top cover.

 

cheers,

v

[Bryan]

I think he means leave out the drive bays.

[Curt Vendel]

Starting to sound like an Atari version of the Apple //C

 

 

Well, we could make a new run of 1450XL bottoms and the 1400/1450XL cartridge/port side panel, then the 1200XL tops could be used.

 

 

That would probably be easiest. Although, from a practical usefulness point of view, I'd rather have a custom bottom to house a 130xe and jack in the 1200xl top and keyboard. As long as I'm dreaming, let's cut the right side open to slide a 1050 mech into it. The thought of a 1400xl looking case with built in floppy on the side, 128k etc is very enticing.

[Curt Vendel]

The 1450XL is the board you're seeing in pic's on this thread and the one sold by BEST (or was), they were going to have a disk drive daughterboard plug ontop of them and that would make them a XLD (or XL/D) so since these don't have the disk controller built onto them like the TONG 1450XLD, they are most properly called 1450XL's

 

 

Curt

 

Okay, good news, I found the PCB films for the 1450XL motherboard, its a 4 layer board. If anyone knows of a board maker that can handle films vs gerber files, let me know...

 

Now, what I also have are the mechanical drawings for the 1400/1450XL systems, so if anyone out there wants to generate the IGS files, then we could look to have some low volume aluminum tooling made and we could make a new run of 1450XL's (not XLD's)

 

 

Just a heads up...

Curt,

What's a 1450XL? I'm only familiar with the 1400XL and 1450XLD, was this board appropriate for all three, or was it intended for only the 1450? I can generate the IGES files, how do you want to get the drawings to me? Can you scan them? Or do we need to snail-mail paper copies? Since the openings in the rear of the top cover were also different, I was thinking about molding a panel that could be used to modify a 1200XL top cover.

 

cheers,

v

[+bob1200xl]

Oh,,, you mean the 1200XLD?

 

You can't get a 1050 mech in there, but the 3.5 was 'Made For It"

 

Bob

 

Well, we could make a new run of 1450XL bottoms and the 1400/1450XL cartridge/port side panel, then the 1200XL tops could be used.

 

 

That would probably be easiest. Although, from a practical usefulness point of view, I'd rather have a custom bottom to house a 130xe and jack in the 1200xl top and keyboard. As long as I'm dreaming, let's cut the right side open to slide a 1050 mech into it. The thought of a 1400xl looking case with built in floppy on the side, 128k etc is very enticing.