jamesk Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Nibble had a monthly contest where people would send in the smallest program possible. I think limited to the keyboard buffer size of the Apple II. Anyone remember what those were called? Some were pretty incredible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 While the exact configuration of the jumper pads x1-x6 is not detailed in the manual. It is shown in the schematic. Those jumper pads are generally not for the end user to play with, they are wired up to the Chip Select lines of the Firmware EPROM. These are here to accommodate different sizes and banking of the EPROM or whether and when it is accessed - in a nutshell. So as an end user, you don't need to worry about them other than that they are looking like this -- http://mirrors.apple...20-%20Front.jpg Here is a link to the Apple SSC documentation. I like the 1981 manual scan, it seems to have a better layout and is easier on the eyes -- http://mirrors.apple...20Card/Manuals/ And here is a readable schematic that shows where the jumpers are by default. Look in the upper left quadrant -- http://mirrors.apple...ard/Schematics/ Don't you guys just love the early documentation and how complete and thorough it was?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) Nibble had a monthly contest where people would send in the smallest program possible. I think limited to the keyboard buffer size of the Apple II. Anyone remember what those were called? Some were pretty incredible. The II, II+, //e never had a keyboard buffer beyond 1 keystroke, unless you changed out the keyboard encoder card with something like the Videx Enhancer. I never did type in many of the Nibble programs. But I sucked up each and every one of the Beagle Brother's 2-Liners! Some of these programs were idiotic and ridiculous, stupid fun in their own right. But some were useful and often demonstrated some technique or trick you could use in your own programs. These 2-Liners were strewn throughout their catalogs and the best ones compiled into TipDisk #1. http://beagle.applea...tip_disk_1.html http://beagle.applea...m/the_catalogs/ http://beagle.applearchives.com/ Edited September 26, 2011 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) These were called one-liners, and it wasn't the keyboard buffer, but the line input character limit of Applesoft. Essentially, you could type a very long line into Applesoft, with operations and statements separated by a colon ":", packing a whole lot of things into one line! I think the limit was close to 256 characters, which is one byte used for the line character counter somewhere in the Apple BASIC interpreter. They were a lot of fun to write, and we used to do them in school. 10 FOR I = 1 TO 1000 20 PRINT I 30 NEXT Ended up being: 10 FOR I = 1 TO 1000 : ? I : NEXT The "?" was shorthand for "PRINT One liners tended to be fast too, just because of how Applesoft worked overall. One could just type it in too, no line number, just type it all in there, then watch it do whatever it was immediately after the return key was pressed. Yes, I see "two-liners" mentioned. Was going there, but now I don't have to. Re: Old docs. Hell yes! Great stuff. I am currently working through "Inside the Apple //e", and it details the machine down to the logic level. Great book. One could learn a lot from stuff like that. Still can. Edited September 26, 2011 by potatohead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuckleCat Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 While the exact configuration of the jumper pads x1-x6 is not detailed in the manual. It is shown in the schematic. Those jumper pads are generally not for the end user to play with, they are wired up to the Chip Select lines of the Firmware EPROM. These are here to accommodate different sizes and banking of the EPROM or whether and when it is accessed - in a nutshell. So as an end user, you don't need to worry about them other than that they are looking like this -- http://mirrors.apple...20-%20Front.jpg Here is a link to the Apple SSC documentation. I like the 1981 manual scan, it seems to have a better layout and is easier on the eyes -- http://mirrors.apple...20Card/Manuals/ And here is a readable schematic that shows where the jumpers are by default. Look in the upper left quadrant -- http://mirrors.apple...ard/Schematics/ Don't you guys just love the early documentation and how complete and thorough it was?? Oh wow! Thanks for finding this stuff. Once I get a working disk controller card and start messing with ADT, I'll mess about with the SSC and see if it's in working order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) Look at the asimov mirror on -- http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ -- here you will find a nearly endless supply stuff for the II series. And don't forget to check out the Comp.Sys.Apple2.Faq, It answers a lot of questions -- http://apple2.info/w...title=Main_Page The real thanks goes to the guys putting this stuff together. All the time spent doing collation activities, scanning, server space, maintenance of the archives and mirrors, the guys building the sites, folks donating materials, documentation, disk images, interview time, folks sharing anecdotes and tips and tricks and troubleshooting advice. Shit man, its really an internet-wide effort spanning thousands of computers and even more thousands of man hours. All so you can run a frakking 1MHz computer from 30 years ago! Edited September 26, 2011 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 None of the pictures in the wiki article are of the same model SSC he has, nor do they have the correct number of solder pads. The comparison is invalid. You're right, the model is slightly different so I'm sure they are unrelated.. Where in the article does it specify the states of the jumper pads? I never mentioned the "stated of the jumper pads"... In fact, I said I don't know why. But it does say: Apple II serial interface card that required cutting and soldering to reconfigure. The user would cut the wire trace between the >< cones at X1 and X3 and solder the <> cones together at X2 and X4 ...and coincidentally, his is modified at X3.... Weird, huh... As I said before, it looks intentional. If it's working, it's probably fine.. Looking at the pics, his card looks to be in pretty good shape... But I could be wrong... Who knows.. Have a good one.. desiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 X3 pad is definitely corroded. It has some of the dull characteristic color which can be seen on several other parts. This is characteristic (assuming the card was in slot 2) of having the system sit, powered off, while the user had a cold drink resting on the lid, or more likely, a box of frozen dinners. The condensation dripped (or wicked) onto the SSC. I've seen this exact pattern before. I say we clean it up with a Q-tip and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gagne Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 There really does need to be a giant site for Apple II info though. Too many small non-comprehensive sites out there Not that I disagree, but I'm wondering what that would look like. There are many individuals working on preserving different aspects of the Apple II in unique ways. Would it be best for them to be coordinated into pouring their efforts into a single repository? If so, there's been some momentum recently into putting those materials into the Internet Archive, though obviously that wouldn't work for commercial ventures like Nibble. Or would a single site that indexes and links to all those separate sites be valuable? The A2-Web used to be such a resource, but I don't think its moderator actively supervises it. -Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuckleCat Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) The condensation dripped (or wicked) onto the SSC. I've seen this exact pattern before. I say we clean it up with a Q-tip and go from there. Today I cleaned the questionable areas, and even checked under the SY chip to make sure there was no corrosion underneath it. Later tonight I'm going to re-skim through the SSC docs and see if there's any sort of diagnostic commands I can send to it to see if it's working ok. (I don't have a cable to try anything yet) I won't be able to order the cables (or the disk controller) until next week at the earliest. =\ Edited September 27, 2011 by HuckleCat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Pac Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I have to add something here myself, if you look in my signature you'll see a link to Enter magazine. It has Apple 2 programs in basic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streck Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) Nibble had a monthly contest where people would send in the smallest program possible. I think limited to the keyboard buffer size of the Apple II. Anyone remember what those were called? Some were pretty incredible. You can find a disk of the Nibble One-Two Line Contest at Asimov: "Nibble Magazine One-Two Line Contest Collection.dsk" in /pub/apple_II/images/magazines/nibble Found it in a random box of disks I got off eBay a few years ago, during an orgy of disk-imaging. Such disk collections don't seem to show up nearly as often now. Edited September 27, 2011 by Streck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmileyDude Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) I'm pretty sure I have a bunch of Nibble and InCider magazines around still. The Nibble magazines go pretty close to the end of their run, as I recall. I would be willing to give them to someone for the price of shipping them and a copy of all of the scans. I don't currently have a scanner, and if I did, I wouldn't have the time to sit and scan all of them. If anyone is interested in getting these, contact me via a PM. Serious offers only -- I don't want to send them off and then never hear back again. Edited October 8, 2011 by SmileyDude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeslife Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) This thread has been made famous by the podcast Open Apple... 10/03 Episode. lol. The hosts of the show missed the specific point of the thread though. I was NOT talking about software or hardware. I am speaking of magazines (A+, Incider) and books. For example, Compute's compilation books are easily located in pdf for every computer EXCEPT Apple II. The good Atari magazines and Commodore magazines are easily found in pdf format.. Where are A+?? Incider??? That was my point in case Gagne & Maginnis are reading this. Show me an apple site that is half as good as these two sites. http://www.atarimani...-books_1_8.html http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/ Until you do, Apple users are deemed "different".. and not in a good way.. Edited October 9, 2011 by dudeslife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Well... wait a minute. I totally get the lack of publications on archive. That's a valid point. But... In terms of software archives, not having it in one easy place isn't that big of a deal. It didn't take long to go and find out where the stuff is, and many companies have released their software for retro purposes gratis, disk images there for the taking. I don't see as much of that on the other machines. In terms of technical how to documentation, absolutely nothing beats the Apple. Seriously. There are books that completely document the machine, and the few gaps they have are filled with open and documented ROM code, etc... Maybe there are a few obstacles for a gamer just wanting to explore the machine. IMHO, that's fair. At times, things can be pricey too. Also fair. With Apples, you've got to watch for a while and strike when it's a good time to buy. Ups and downs. Less of that on other platforms these days, from what I can see. Ataris and C= machines are cheaper... But then again, the CoCo 3 wasn't. Maybe this varies too. But, on the flip side, the entire machine is accessible without decapping chips and reverse engineering things too. I think that changes the game somewhat, where the hardware is simple, some of the emphasis changes. It does for me. I find the Apple computer still useful in basic ways, where I would really just game on the Atari, or C= machines. Not a slam either. I love my Atari, but it's a game machine, and part of the story there is the software exploration of the chips, people pushing the edge, etc... On the Apple, those things are known, so it's more about actually using the machine still, or exploring old, great software. Not great because it exhibited a new visual trick, though there are some of those, but because it was influential, or is still useful, or there is some intriguing history behind it. For some people, and this is me I hope, it's also about doing hardware stuff. Apples are kind of kick ass there. Card slots with good signals, solid, "in the can" support for serial, 80 columns, built in assembler, all manner of interesting cards, etc... One area I kind of agree with you on is some specific programming books that probably should be in PDF now, aren't. But, the books that are in PDF are pretty damn good. Different? Yeah. I behave considerably different on the Apple, motivations, etc... than I do on the Atari. You know, the CoCo 3 experience is similar to that, though it does have graphics chip tricks and such going on. Kind of a blend of the two really. Maybe that's why I personally have the three machines. I think the biggest difference is the computers were very seriously used to a higher degree than many other 8 bitters were. I notice some of that with the CoCo scene too, where the same effect is in play. Tons of people got Atari machines, me included, to game on and learn some programming, etc... Tons of people got Apple computers to do business and happened to game on them. Schools had labs where the same dynamics were in play. I think that changes things some, just for the kinds of people who got to identify with the machines, that's all. So different, but I have a hard time with "not in a good way". Always ways to get better, but it's just not bad from where I stand. I seriously regret selling my tricked out ][+ in the 90's. Waited a bit too long to undo that mistake, same with the CoCo 3. Both scenes don't have the game oriented activity Atari and C= do, and the demographics show why, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeslife Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) Well... wait a minute. I totally get the lack of publications on archive. That's a valid point. But... In terms of software archives, not having it in one easy place isn't that big of a deal. It didn't take long to go and find out where the stuff is, and many companies have released their software for retro purposes gratis, disk images there for the taking. I don't see as much of that on the other machines. In terms of technical how to documentation, absolutely nothing beats the Apple. Seriously. There are books that completely document the machine, and the few gaps they have are filled with open and documented ROM code, etc... So different, but I have a hard time with "not in a good way". Always ways to get better, but it's just not bad from where I stand. I seriously regret selling my tricked out ][+ in the 90's. Waited a bit too long to undo that mistake, same with the CoCo 3. Both scenes don't have the game oriented activity Atari and C= do, and the demographics show why, IMHO. I am beginning to think you guys are just joking with me... Some of you seem to have trouble grasping the SPECIFIC point I am making. Once again, I am not talking about software, hardware, manuals that came with the computer, or hardware technical refs. Yes, I KNOW, there is a plethora that can easily be found and I would say that Apple users EXCEL in making technical references and eBay hardware available. If you want to offer a counterpoint, find me pdf scans of Compute's Second Book of Apple, Third Book of Apple, Compute's Easy BASIC programs for the Apple, Compute's Kids and the Apple, Compute's Apple Games for Kids, The Apple II BASIC Handbook, Programming the Apple II Computer, BASIC Apple BASIC, Einsteins Begiiners Guide to the Apple II... etc.. etc.. etc.. all of these are easily found for Commoodore and Atari. Find a pdf run of A+ or Incider+ .. like the easily found Compute, Compute's Gazette, Atari Antic, Commodore Magazine, Amiga World, etc..etc..etc.. The other points you made were relevant to preservation, but the not the part that I am specifically interested in. Apple users are seriously lacking when it comes to preservation of books and their top magazines. Edited October 9, 2011 by dudeslife 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatta Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 If you want to offer a counterpoint, find me pdf scans of Compute's Second Book of Apple, Third Book of Apple, Compute's Easy BASIC programs for the Apple, Compute's Kids and the Apple, Compute's Apple Games for Kids, Or Compute's Apple IIgs Machine Language for Beginners. I'd really like to get a scan of that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 The issue some people have with the discussion is that, at first glance, it appears you are saying: "I can't find these specific books, therefor there is no good archiving." There are great C64 book archives, but anyone could find some books that aren't included and say the same thing. (About any system) The opposite is also distracting. Saying, "find these specific titles to prove me wrong" by itself won't prove anything other that those specific titles have been scanned.. (Although it's a sign of the lack of scanning, which is what I believe he was getting at...) In fact, the push for the specific titles is what, I think, made some people miss the point. It's easy to say that there's a lot of good stuff, just not the few titles he's looking for.... However, when I really went looking more in-depth, I agree with dudeslife that there seem to be several sites for other systems that have a much larger collection of scanned material. It almost feels as tho there was an initial scan of numerous documents a long time ago. You can find those on several sites, and there is some great information... But it seems like after that initial push, it stopped. So, while I was skeptical initially, the more I looked the more I agree with the basic idea behind the statement. The Apple 8-bit archivers have been slacking!!! desiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I agree with this, and was confused in exactly the ways you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuckleCat Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Apple 2 users are different because they go on Ebay and think that charging more for a single Disk ][ drive than others selling a computer with multiple drives is a friggin' awesome idea. eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190535207226 eBay Auction -- Item Number: 150607099800 eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190535206608 eBay Auction -- Item Number: 370244996594 or hey! - eBay Auction -- Item Number: 290618100043 eBay Auction -- Item Number: 220869020658 What is up with that? WHAT IS UP WITH THAT. There's a few nontested ones, and another for 10 bucks by some guy who's sure it's broken, but hey, I can buy it now for FIFTY BUCKS. BROKEN. This is me looking at the ebay right now: WTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yeah, was looking for Joysticks to see similar prices. Crap. I've got the works to one that I just got fixed up. Case is crap though. Might just buy a project box and stuff it in there for that kind of money. Apple stuff seems to be impacted by the current Apple Computer and the goings on. If there is some anniversary, or change like Jobs passing, the price on ANYTHING Apple seems to go up and down. What I do is wait it out. Scored my //e with disk for less than one of the drives you've listed. It all worked too. Watch for "computercorps" BTW. They are a great seller, moving stuff at very reasonable prices. Service is good too. Keep looking! Maybe those of us who see something can post here or PM. (I will, if I know what you are looking for, which I do in this case.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax2069 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) Yeah i got my Rom3 IIgs with a 3.5" and 5.25" drive for around $40 a few years ago (not from ebay though). Been looking at Blujay.com and sometimes you can find stuff there for a lot cheaper then you can on ebay. sometimes you can luck out on craigslist. Just to compare with the ebay links above http://www.blujay.co...ywords=Apple+II and then a joystick http://www.blujay.co...ywords=Apple+II most of the times you can find stuff cheaper on blujay then you can on ebay Edited October 10, 2011 by madmax2069 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Well, instead of bitching and complaining about lack of scanning. Le's just git'R'done! I offer my scanning services @ 50 pages per day. in pdf or .jpg - just get the materials to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeslife Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Well, instead of bitching and complaining about lack of scanning. Le's just git'R'done! I offer my scanning services @ 50 pages per day. in pdf or .jpg - just get the materials to me. I sent a PM to SmileyDude to get those Incider's for scanning. Haven't heard back yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeslife Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) The issue some people have with the discussion is that, at first glance, it appears you are saying: "I can't find these specific books, therefor there is no good archiving." There are great C64 book archives, but anyone could find some books that aren't included and say the same thing. (About any system) The opposite is also distracting. Saying, "find these specific titles to prove me wrong" by itself won't prove anything other that those specific titles have been scanned.. (Although it's a sign of the lack of scanning, which is what I believe he was getting at...) In fact, the push for the specific titles is what, I think, made some people miss the point. It's easy to say that there's a lot of good stuff, just not the few titles he's looking for.... However, when I really went looking more in-depth, I agree with dudeslife that there seem to be several sites for other systems that have a much larger collection of scanned material. It almost feels as tho there was an initial scan of numerous documents a long time ago. You can find those on several sites, and there is some great information... But it seems like after that initial push, it stopped. So, while I was skeptical initially, the more I looked the more I agree with the basic idea behind the statement. The Apple 8-bit archivers have been slacking!!! desiv I was giving the specific titles as examples.. basically I want EVERY apple IIe book in pdf format. To get an idea of how bad of a job the apple II community did with preservation, goto Amazon and search for Apple II or Apple IIe. Then compare the results to the paltry amount of pdf scans that exist. It's a really bad situation. Do not mistake this for Apple bashing, but in comparison to the Atari and Commodore communities, Apple has been a big cup of fail in regards to preservation of the written word.. Now we have dealers sitting on books with ridiculous price listing on eBay. These books are just a house fire or dealer's death away from being tossed into a landfill and lost forever. Overdramatic? I don't think so. The books and magazines are every bit as important as the expansion cards everyone seems to want to preserve. Edited October 13, 2011 by dudeslife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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