Lo-tech idea I'm going to try out!

[Gunstar]

These days, everyone seems to be upgrading their 8-bits, especially in the I/O area with HDD's, SD cards, SIO2PC/USB, etc., etc.

Being one who likes to jump on such bandwagons, I have, but, I also like to be different and sometimes go against the grain.

 

So, I've come up with an idea that I am going to start working on, 2 ideas really, one I can start on right away, the other I'll have to find first. So what's the idea(s) you ask? First, I'm going to take a reel-to-reel (or 8-track or both) tape player/recorder and modifiy it to work like an Atari 410/1010 recorder! The second idea is to find an old record recorder/player (yes, those ancient devices that both made and played vinyl records!) Then I'm going to make it work like a 410/1010 recorder and start putting games on reel-to-reel tapes and vinyl records! The first idea is no problem as far as tapes, but it may be difficult to find blank vinyls to record too...

 

What do you all think of my ideas? And I don't need anyone saying it can't be done, it can. So I'm going to do it just to prove it!

Edited October 8, 2011 by Gunstar

[Fox-1 / mnx]

I don't know how seriously I should take it but it doesn't sound anything like a challenge. Most has been done before and it doesn't matter on what media you store the audio. Using a compact cassette, mini-disc, 8-track, mini-disc, compact disc, vinyl, DAT, whatever... it all works as long you're using the right FSK.

 

Finding blank vinyls (lacquer) is no problem either but you'd need a somewhat specialized recorder for it.

 

In the past a friend and me modified 2 data-recorders (one 1010 and a XC12) to take external audio input/output's. Using an FM transmitter and stereo coder (and an ordinary stereo FM radio) we could send data (open "C:") back and forth on the left audio channel while the right channel was open for real audio. (We were in different cities b.t.w.) One can exchange the transmitter and radio with anything that records and plays back audio.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Fox-1 / mnx

[Gunstar]

Not intended to be "a challenge" It should be easy, basically using a 1010 or 410's electronic guts. I'm not doing it for the challenge, I'm doing it just for fun and I think it would be retro-cool to use an old tape or record tech device on my Atari. I didn't think it has been done before, with the devices I mentioned. I vaguely remember something like this being done with a VCR years ago.

 

The reason any of us use all this old Atari tech is for fun anyway, I think it would be fun to do this! I think I've decided to go the 8-track first, becuase I can take my old 8-track recorder out of it's old case which is real close to the size of 810 drive, so I could use an 810 case (actually I have an 820 thermo printer that doesn't work that uses the same case as the 810)

 

Yeah, the specialized recorder is the thing that will be hard. That's why I'll do either reel2reel or 8-track first, becuase i have these devices on-hand, with blank tapes and 8-track cassettes to use.

 

FSK? Sorry I don't recognize that abreviation.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Gunstar

[Fox-1 / mnx]

 

Except for 2 resistors, no real electronics required. You can obey the 2 switches on top if it's for dedicated usage :-)

[Sub(Function(:))]

FSK? Sorry I don't recognize that abreviation.

 

Frequency Shift Key(ing)

 

A method of encoding digital data (1&0) in and analogue form.

 

You uses two frequencies one to represent 0 and another for 1. There is also idle (no frequency)

 

Not sure of the frequencies used on atari but you can check it in De Re Atari.

[Bryan]

There was a magazine article to build the interface you're talking about (I don't remember which magazine, but I built one as a kid). You could hook any tape recorder to the Atari with it.

[Mclaneinc]

While I love the ingenuity of this the words 'WHY' keep popping into my head even though you have explained why

[Fox-1 / mnx]

Because he can.

 

Sounds like a valid reason to me :-)

[Gunstar]

Why climb a mountain? Because it is there...

[Gunstar]

[quote name=Sub(Function()' timestamp='1318153117' post='2385668]

FSK? Sorry I don't recognize that abreviation.

 

Frequency Shift Key(ing)

 

A method of encoding digital data (1&0) in and analogue form.

 

You uses two frequencies one to represent 0 and another for 1. There is also idle (no frequency)

 

Not sure of the frequencies used on atari but you can check it in De Re Atari.

 

OK, but I don't see any bearing on this fact with my project, I'm only going to be saving and loading programs with it, the Atari will send the right frequencies when writing to the tape/record and play them back.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

the Atari will send the right frequencies when writing to the tape/record and play them back.

 

Not entirely true.

 

The Atari is just sending/reading digital data. They'll become usable frequencies once they passed the FSK. Not that it really matters since you're going to use the guts of a 1010/410 anyways (which includes the FSK), but just for the record.

[Rybags]

Atari sends the FSK but receives pure digital.

 

An interesting thing might be to try this sort of thing with on of the "turbo mode" circuits and a CD player since there'd be much less noise.

 

Alternatively, a circuit that just takes CD audio and amplifies it to the +5V for logic one - in theory a "super turbo mode" would be possible. Have a boot record in a normal(ish) 700 bps, then use a custom SIO that reads the remainder as large blocks at a much higher speed, e.g. 22,050 bps.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

Something like this: http://sites.google.com/site/ataripal/megacd

[Mathy]

Hello guys

 

MegaCD is nice, but my Boot CD's hold more stuff.

 

Mathy

[Bryan]

Atari sends the FSK but receives pure digital.

 

An interesting thing might be to try this sort of thing with on of the "turbo mode" circuits and a CD player since there'd be much less noise.

 

Alternatively, a circuit that just takes CD audio and amplifies it to the +5V for logic one - in theory a "super turbo mode" would be possible. Have a boot record in a normal(ish) 700 bps, then use a custom SIO that reads the remainder as large blocks at a much higher speed, e.g. 22,050 bps.

 

Things like FM and GCR are good for when you have to retrieve data from an AC-coupled source. That way you have enough transitions in the data to easily keep the logic levels discrete.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

MegaCD is nice, but my Boot CD's hold more stuff.

 

which is totally off-topic as this thread is about storing/loading as audio, not data.

[Gunstar]

MegaCD is nice, but my Boot CD's hold more stuff.

 

which is totally off-topic as this thread is about storing/loading as audio, not data.

 

So are all the cd oriented replies! I'm doing TAPE with obsolete tape formats, not UPGRADING to cd! Of course this is just for fun. The whole point is to have ancient device working with my Atari and looking weird and cool at the same time sitting next to my Atari. This isn't about "better" it's about "different."

[Gunstar]

the Atari will send the right frequencies when writing to the tape/record and play them back.

 

Not entirely true.

 

The Atari is just sending/reading digital data. They'll become usable frequencies once they passed the FSK. Not that it really matters since you're going to use the guts of a 1010/410 anyways (which includes the FSK), but just for the record.

 

I understand. And yes, my intent is not building somehing from scratch but using a 1010/410, so to wether the FSK is in the computer or tape device makes no difference. It is something that I never would have considered if you hadn't mentioned it, and wouldn't have mattered anyway. So it's merely worthless trivia to me.

[sack-c0s]

Any thoughts on how to make everything resilient to the hiss and crackle of vinyl?

[UNIXcoffee928]

... So it's merely worthless trivia to me.

 

Wow, that's really rude.

 

Any thoughts on how to make everything resilient to the hiss and crackle of vinyl?

 

This is a common misconception about all records. Records that have been mistreated display these defects (from not being returned to their sleeves after playing, stacked on other unsleeved records or left out to get scratched by other objects, records that have been used with low-quality or over-used needles, records that are carelessly played in a "random access" sort of way, by incorrectly dropping the needle, or letting the needle bounce across the record... these are all ways that people end up with records that pop, hiss, crackle, and skip.)

 

Sooo... ALWAYS put it back in it's sleeve, then put it back in it's cover, & return it to your record case or shelf. ALWAYS buy good Needles.

 

It is a good idea to let a record run sequentially, from start to finish, rather than picking the needle up, and putting it down random-access style.

 

If you must start a song this way (DJing, for example), then do it the following way, to avoid putting little micro-scratches in the record:

 

Hold the Needle Cartridge with your Thumb, your First Finger AND your Second Finger. It also helps to rest your forearm, (directly in the middle of your forearm), on a stationary object, to minimize any jiggle or tremor. Put the needle down SLOWLY, with a downward motion that has a consistent velocity, then, upon contact, slightly push down about a half a millimeter, with minimal force, and in one constant motion, realese the needle-cartridge into the middle of the empty area between songs, and let your hand follow back upward at the same speed that you put the needle down with.

 

With practice this can be done quickly & precisely, every time.

 

Always check an unknown record-player to ensure that the Arm's Auto-Return mechanism is functioning properly. A malfunctioning arm can destroy your record as soon as the last song finishes playing.

 

It is a good idea to carefully clean your record needle with rubbing (Alcohol on a Q-Tip) to remove grime build-up. Use the Middle of the forearm trick, to steady your hand, to minimize the occurrence of destroying the needle because of an accidental shaky hand, when doing this. It is VERY important to make sure that your record is not on the Turntable while attempting this maintenance operation.

 

Keep the rubber mat clean & dust free, using Windex, often. Keep the Whole Phonograph Dust & Grime free, with Windex, while you're at it.

 

Sometimes (usually) old, used records that you pick up cheap at a garage sale will pop, hiss, etc. Here's what you do:

 

Clean the Vinyl area (not the paper label) with Windex & a soft cotton rag (old, worn 100% cotton T-Shirt is good). Wipe in a circular motion, following the tracks, from the outside to the inside (by the label). Use a consistent pressure as you do it, and do each side, one side at a time. (Be aware that CDs are not cleaned this way, but, rather, in one straight across motion!)

 

Check the record, by playing it. If there is still scratching, hiss, etc, then this trick will often fix or minimize the issue:

Use Original (Yellow) Pledge furniture wax on a different cotton rag. Apply in the same circular fashion. Many times this little trick will restore a loved record. Check it by playing it. If it's good, record it onto a different form of media, at this point.

 

Now, worst case scenario... hardcore scratches... looks like it was skimmed down a driveway... yet it's got some song on it that you want, but can't get elsewhere, and you don't mind if it's a little scratchy, you just want it listenable... here's what you can do:

 

Clean it with the Windex, then with the Pledge. Dry it thoroughly. Get out your junky secondary turntable, with the needle that wasn't very expensive, for this one, and set it up to record to a tape, or the computer, or whatever. Apply Johnson's Talcum Powder liberally to the beat-up record... cover it completely. Give it a circular wipe around, slap it against your thigh three times to knock off the extra powder (but don't wipe it further at this point). Set up the recorder, hit record, and play it. Chances are very high that you will get one playthrough, and be able to back it up. Keep in mind that this is a last-ditch effort, but it often works... (microscopically, the powder lines the grooves like snow covering mountains, valleys, and ridges. Don't do it with you good needle!)

 

I grew up with records & cassette tapes. I have hundreds upon hundreds of them. I'm sure that an Audiophile or Vinyl Collector would shudder at the thought of the above cleaning/restoration methods... but they work.

 

Other than that, a good BSR or ADC Graphic EQ with Spectrum Analyzer REALLY works wonders for reducing hiss on Phono systems, and it also will let you REALLY enjoy all of the Analog Goodness that can be found in the really round, full low-end, and crisp mid-highs.

 

While I'm a music producer, audio engineer, and musician, I'm a record owner/user, not a rabid "Record Collector", out to say that Vinyl Rules! no matter what the situation, but here is a very interesting thing...

 

Get together the following: An .mp3, a CD, a tape release, a blank CrO2 Tape, and a Vinyl Record of Van Halen's "Diver Down" Album.

 

The record is ferocious, with booming lows, incredible mids, crisp highs, and has all of the air moving power of the first few seconds of "Panama" (off of the 1984 album)... throughout the entire album. Kicks ass. Record it on a CrO2 tape, from the record, it still kicks ass.

 

Now, play the "Official" Normal Bias Tape of the album. Weak. All midrange. Crap. Now play the Official CD release... WEAK, all midrange with annoying over-crisp highs, and no kick. Now play the .mp3 (you'll wish that you hadn't) squished midrange with some buzzy highs. No power, & a HORRIBLE representation of the music. You have not Experienced This Album if you have only heard digital renditions.

 

You see, in many cases, older music was Mixed & Mastered for the medium of the Vinyl Record, with it's sonic/acoustic peculiarities in mind. In many cases, the transition to a digital medium, from the originally mastered recordings is very poor... (for many technical reasons that I won't go into, to keep this from being a book...). It then gets MUCH worse when it is then compressed into an .mp3.

 

Sooo, the moral here, I guess, is... play "Diver Down" on a phonograph, with a BSR EQ, and realize exactly how great the record really is... Oh, & be sure to play it loud enough to kill the neighbor's lawn (SOP for all DLR-era Van Halen, lol.).

[sack-c0s]

hmm - I thought hiss and crackle was inevitable, but skipping was down to carelessness, and CD was a case of 'it isn't perfect, but it won't degrade any further'. I stand corrected.

 

I do have a love-hate relationship with MP3 though - I'm a million miles away from being an audiophile but even I can hear the telltale signs of an MP3 and it bugs me... but then there's the thing of being able to carry a sizeable chunk of my collection in my pocket wherever I go... maybe as storage goes up, compression can come down and a bit of R&D will iron out the imperfections, I dunno....

[Bryan]

FSK can tolerate more noise than writing bit-streams where a lost flux transition is critical.

 

I collect vinyl and I agree that a good, clean pressing can be nearly free of noise. A couple things, though:

 

1. I wouldn't use alcohol to clean a stylus. Get a stylus cleaning solution with an applicator brush. On some styli, alcohol can dissolve the adhesive holding the diamond in place. Also, lowering the stylus (never drag) onto a block of melamine foam (Magic Eraser) is a handy cleaning method.

 

2. If you have a collection of any size, a proper record cleaner is essential. Something like the Spin Clean system ($80) works well, and a vacuum machine works even better ($150+). I personally use a Nitty Gritty 1.5:

 

http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/

http://www.nittygrittyinc.com/1.5_2.5.htm

http://www.vpiindustries.com/static.php?page=HW_165_Cleaning_Machine

 

Many times a noisy record isn't damaged, it's just dirty. Also, getting crud out the grooves (and then putting the record in a new, clean sleeve) will greatly extend stylus life.

[UNIXcoffee928]

hmm - I thought hiss and crackle was inevitable, but skipping was down to carelessness, and CD was a case of 'it isn't perfect, but it won't degrade any further'. I stand corrected.

 

I do have a love-hate relationship with MP3 though - I'm a million miles away from being an audiophile but even I can hear the telltale signs of an MP3 and it bugs me... but then there's the thing of being able to carry a sizeable chunk of my collection in my pocket wherever I go... maybe as storage goes up, compression can come down and a bit of R&D will iron out the imperfections, I dunno....

 

I agree, .mp3s are freakin Convienient! A lot of times they do suck, too! ...But they can be good, if they are EQed properly, and you monitor your levels, to ensure quality, and of course, you use good .mp3 conversion software. New official releases don't suffer much, since they master for both 44.1kHz CD & .mp3 mediums on new releases. On older releases, you are better off making your own .mp3s from your original media, in a lot of cases.

 

What is amazing is the human brain's ability to fill in the missing frequencies from known material, from memory, when listening to compressed music.... Can be a blessing or a curse, though, depending on the listener. For me, sometimes the .mp3s are so blasphemous that I'll turn it off, because it does the song such a disservice.

 

Uggg, I remember all of the propaganda about CDs being the ultimate way to ensure the protection and integrity of your music collection. Lies, lies, lies... I have so many CDs that skip & stick that it is infuriating. 1990s Automotive Multidisk CD Changers often kill CDs, with tons of mini-scratches. I think back on all of the money involved in those players and the CDs themselves, and it REALLY irks me.

 

Here's what will happen, in answer to your question...

 

Spooky music... check...

 

[media='']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiXFm5M44pg[/media]

 

Crystal ball... check...

 

[media='']

[/media]

 

The RAM & Storage will eventually become so much higher, within 10 years, that people will scoff at the numbers we have now, and wonder how people lived with .mp3 compression in this decade. At some point, down the line, in the next 5 years, someone will realize that .wav files can be encapsulated in a Digital Rights Management-friendly containing file-lock, with a bit-level randomized data security scheme applied to the wav... this will coincide with storage getting bigger & cheaper.

 

A "Breakthrough" device will be announced, with 10x the storage available today, and everything will be re-issued through a service similar to itunes. A PIN will enable the .wav file for playback by the registered owner.

 

This will be the big thing for a while, then 5 years later, the storage will be bigger, and they will re-issue the songs at a higher sampling rate. At this point it will be the Musicians, not the Record Companies that are getting mad... because, after a few iterations of this storage-increase/sampling-rate-increase type of progress, eventually the releases will be getting closer and closer to the level of perfection of the actual release, and the way that piracy has always been, and will obviously continue to be, people will crack the DRM PIN scheme, and re-distribute the music freely at the same sampling rate as the Media that the Artist has recorded. Remixes by third parties and sample-theft will prevail. Eventually the Record Companies will get mad again too, but not as mad as they've been.

 

This will likely cause innovations to occur in studio technologies, and eventually, the sampling bit-rates for studio gear will double, quadruple, etc. getting higher & higher, to still maintain an 'edge' of 'quality'. All old samples will be obsolete. High bit-rate sample libraries will be produced & sold, etc. it will effect many different areas of business throughout the music industry.

 

This sample-rate increase trend has been going on in recording for a while now... eventually it will reach the consumer level, through the Trickle-Down Effect.

 

Ironically, digital audio sound reproduction is akin to a logarithm, though. It gets closer & closer, but will, by definition, will never achieve the quality level of Analog. You can keep chopping & chopping something into smaller & smaller samples, and every time you do, the quality will get better than it was before... but no matter how many times you chop it, it will never be as "Perfect" as an analog representation.

 

Things have been going in this BUY DIGITAL direction now, since at least 1983, so there's no escaping it. In every case that I can think of there has been an Analog product that worked perfectly acceptably, but was shunned in favor of a Digital product. It then takes 10s of years for the Digital product to mature & develop sufficiently to come anywhere close to where the analog product was, twenty years prior. It would be amusing, if it didn't suck so much.

 

Anyway, 10-15 years from now, people will laugh at .mp3s the same way they laugh at 8-Tracks & Victrola Consoles, as obscure, antique curiosities that 'Grandma' rattles on about.

Edited October 10, 2011 by UNIXcoffee928

[UNIXcoffee928]

FSK can tolerate more noise than writing bit-streams where a lost flux transition is critical.

 

I collect vinyl and I agree that a good, clean pressing can be nearly free of noise. A couple things, though:

 

1. I wouldn't use alcohol to clean a stylus. Get a stylus cleaning solution with an applicator brush. On some styli, alcohol can dissolve the adhesive holding the diamond in place. Also, lowering the stylus (never drag) onto a block of melamine foam (Magic Eraser) is a handy cleaning method.

 

2. If you have a collection of any size, a proper record cleaner is essential. Something like the Spin Clean system ($80) works well, and a vacuum machine works even better ($150+). I personally use a Nitty Gritty 1.5:

 

http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/

http://www.nittygrit...com/1.5_2.5.htm

http://www.vpiindust...leaning_Machine

 

Many times a noisy record isn't damaged, it's just dirty. Also, getting crud out the grooves (and then putting the record in a new, clean sleeve) will greatly extend stylus life.

 

Thanks for the info!

[Bryan]

You're welcome.

 

If you skip 6 minutes into this video, you get an idea of the crap that gets stuck to vinyl:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yFLGZHAdqE

 

In today's world, vinyl's regarded as a bit of a pain but there's a lot of stuff out there that sounds better on vinyl than any other format. Plus, messing with different turntables, cartridges, and phono preamps allows for a lot customization of the sound.