An Idea regarding the XE systems (re: the quality of the motherboard)

[Sub(Function(:))]

My vote would go with SMD, then we have more space for the Mods

 

They are a bit more fiddly to solder but not impossibly so.

[HiassofT]

Ah, well, this topic has already been discussed a thousand times or so by now, but anyways a few comments:

 

If you are really going to do this, go for all SMD except for the custom chips and the connectors. You'll have to redo the power supply and analog (especially video) parts anyways. Throw out all the TTL ICs and the MMU and replace them with some large CPLD and also replace the DRAMs with an SRAM.

 

SMD parts (especially resistors and capacitors) cost next to nothing and it's quite cheap to order a pre-assembled board with all the SMD parts soldered in place (through-hole assembly is very expensive and time-consuming).

 

IMO there is no point in sticking to through-hole technology, if someone wants this: just buy an 800XL (or maybe even a 130XE if you really want that crappy keyboard), this'll be a lot cheaper anyways.

 

so long,

 

Hias

[kogden]

[quote name=Sub(Function()' timestamp='1319444122' post='2394549]

Why bother with an Atari board at all? Why not just stuff a miniature PC motherboard in a case, and make it run Altirra or one of the other Atari 8-bit emulators? If you want additional hardware, just write some software to emulate it. A lot easier...

 

But then I have to buy a Windows Licence.

 

Last I checked there was at least 1 good A8 emulator for Linux. If you have a motherboard with an Intel chipset and CPU, OSX might be an option as well. Cheaper than a Win7 license with a much better interface and access to tons of UNIX/Linux software as well. I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 good DOS A8 emulator as well. FreeDOS is free and several *NIX versions will run DOS binaries as well. Even MS gives away MS-DOS 6.22 I think.

 

Just because you have an x86 CPU doesn't mean you have to put up with a crappy OS with a big bullseye on it and waste money.

 

My family lives a perfectly happy existence with no dedicated Windows systems on our home network. Then again, we've NEVER been dependent on MS operating systems. Ever. Not even my folks when I was a kid. To claim you're "locked" in to using MS products is laziness. There's perfectly viable production-ready options with a huge base of available software. And if you NEED a particular Windows package, WINE and/or VM's are speedy these days even on cheapish hardware.

[sloopy]

[quote name=Sub(Function( )' timestamp='1319444122' post='2394549]

Why bother with an Atari board at all? Why not just stuff a miniature PC motherboard in a case, and make it run Altirra or one of the other Atari 8-bit emulators? If you want additional hardware, just write some software to emulate it. A lot easier...

 

But then I have to buy a Windows Licence.

 

Last I checked there was at least 1 good A8 emulator for Linux. If you have a motherboard with an Intel chipset and CPU, OSX might be an option as well. Cheaper than a Win7 license with a much better interface and access to tons of UNIX/Linux software as well. I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 good DOS A8 emulator as well. FreeDOS is free and several *NIX versions will run DOS binaries as well. Even MS gives away MS-DOS 6.22 I think.

 

Just because you have an x86 CPU doesn't mean you have to put up with a crappy OS with a big bullseye on it and waste money.

 

My family lives a perfectly happy existence with no dedicated Windows systems on our home network. Then again, we've NEVER been dependent on MS operating systems. Ever. Not even my folks when I was a kid. To claim you're "locked" in to using MS products is laziness. There's perfectly viable production-ready options with a huge base of available software. And if you NEED a particular Windows package, WINE and/or VM's are speedy these days even on cheapish hardware.

 

ReactOS... until it is done, the machine to my right will run Windows...

 

and to believe you dont have to run windows on anything, altho possible, isnt always an option for some... if i didnt run windows, i wouldnt have a job...

 

sloopy.

[Sub(Function(:))]

 

Last I checked there was at least 1 good A8 emulator for Linux. If you have a motherboard with an Intel chipset and CPU, OSX might be an option as well. Cheaper than a Win7 license with a much better interface and access to tons of UNIX/Linux software as well. I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 good DOS A8 emulator as well. FreeDOS is free and several *NIX versions will run DOS binaries as well. Even MS gives away MS-DOS 6.22 I think.

 

Just because you have an x86 CPU doesn't mean you have to put up with a crappy OS with a big bullseye on it and waste money.

 

My family lives a perfectly happy existence with no dedicated Windows systems on our home network. Then again, we've NEVER been dependent on MS operating systems. Ever. Not even my folks when I was a kid. To claim you're "locked" in to using MS products is laziness. There's perfectly viable production-ready options with a huge base of available software. And if you NEED a particular Windows package, WINE and/or VM's are speedy these days even on cheapish hardware.

 

I refer you to post #19 (rybags) in this thread.

 

I know there are other emulators than Altirra. No one has claimed any lock in to windows. But Altirra is the state of the art at the moment and it only runs on Windows.

And BTW I would even have to buy a Windows licence it I used a VM solution and wanted to use Altirra.

 

BTW Windows isn't that crappy, IMHO it's just overpriced and the licensing terms suck.

[carmel_andrews]

Perhaps tramiel told shivji (when he was designing the XE) to purposefully use a low quality motherboard so that people (atari users) would bother trying to moddy or upgrade the XE (so basically, to design a computer system that purposefuly could'nt be upgraded or moddified)

 

Or, perhaps you missed the fact that Jack is cheap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if Shivji had piped up about 'Jacks cheap as sh!t' approach when they were both at commodore, the EARLY history of home computing as we know it would have been very different (since shivji apparently headed up the design team on the c64)

 

Interesting that Shivji, like Peddle before him also left commodore and then came back (though Shivji didn't get slated for him leaving commodore like peddle was slated....and no-one forgave peddle)

[HiassofT]

[quote name=Sub(Function( )' timestamp='1319713470' post='2396503]But Altirra is the state of the art at the moment and it only runs on Windows.

FYI: Altirra runs pretty well under Linux using Wine.

 

so long,

 

Hias

[Sub(Function(:))]

FYI: Altirra runs pretty well under Linux using Wine. so long, Hias

 

Thanks, then I may give it a try.

[kogden]

[quote name=Sub(Function( )' timestamp='1319444122' post='2394549]

Why bother with an Atari board at all? Why not just stuff a miniature PC motherboard in a case, and make it run Altirra or one of the other Atari 8-bit emulators? If you want additional hardware, just write some software to emulate it. A lot easier...

 

But then I have to buy a Windows Licence.

 

Last I checked there was at least 1 good A8 emulator for Linux. If you have a motherboard with an Intel chipset and CPU, OSX might be an option as well. Cheaper than a Win7 license with a much better interface and access to tons of UNIX/Linux software as well. I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 good DOS A8 emulator as well. FreeDOS is free and several *NIX versions will run DOS binaries as well. Even MS gives away MS-DOS 6.22 I think.

 

Just because you have an x86 CPU doesn't mean you have to put up with a crappy OS with a big bullseye on it and waste money.

 

My family lives a perfectly happy existence with no dedicated Windows systems on our home network. Then again, we've NEVER been dependent on MS operating systems. Ever. Not even my folks when I was a kid. To claim you're "locked" in to using MS products is laziness. There's perfectly viable production-ready options with a huge base of available software. And if you NEED a particular Windows package, WINE and/or VM's are speedy these days even on cheapish hardware.

 

ReactOS... until it is done, the machine to my right will run Windows...

 

and to believe you dont have to run windows on anything, altho possible, isnt always an option for some... if i didnt run windows, i wouldnt have a job...

 

sloopy.

 

Not really just "possible" anymore. That was 10 years ago. I prefer terms like "easy" and "elegant". Linux supports more hardware than Windows these days by a wide margin out of the box. And for most Windows apps, there are similar Linux apps. There's exceptions which I why I primarily run OpenStep/mach..... I mean..... MacOS X on my studio desktop and laptop (one a generic Core2 $200 PC the other a Macbook). The exceptions for me are Logic Studio for multitrack recording.... Ardour is cool but it ain't Logic. Photoshop.... GIMP is great until you decide you want your work to ever see a printing press.

 

WINE and VM's will allow you to run gotta-have-it Windows apps on other platforms. 3D Windows games however are a mixed bag and can get frustrating. VirtualBox is OK and free, just use an XP serial from a dead machine. Parallels for OSX is absolutely awesome and even has good enough 3D support for Aero and older games. WINE can be a good solution too, it's faster than a VM but has compatibility issues with some things. If you have more than a couple Win32 apps you need, a VM might be a better option. Nice thing about VM's is if your VM gets all infested and infected, your host machine is ok.

Edited October 27, 2011 by kogden

[sloopy]

[quote name=Sub(Function( )' timestamp='1319444122' post='2394549]

Why bother with an Atari board at all? Why not just stuff a miniature PC motherboard in a case, and make it run Altirra or one of the other Atari 8-bit emulators? If you want additional hardware, just write some software to emulate it. A lot easier...

 

But then I have to buy a Windows Licence.

 

Last I checked there was at least 1 good A8 emulator for Linux. If you have a motherboard with an Intel chipset and CPU, OSX might be an option as well. Cheaper than a Win7 license with a much better interface and access to tons of UNIX/Linux software as well. I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 good DOS A8 emulator as well. FreeDOS is free and several *NIX versions will run DOS binaries as well. Even MS gives away MS-DOS 6.22 I think.

 

Just because you have an x86 CPU doesn't mean you have to put up with a crappy OS with a big bullseye on it and waste money.

 

My family lives a perfectly happy existence with no dedicated Windows systems on our home network. Then again, we've NEVER been dependent on MS operating systems. Ever. Not even my folks when I was a kid. To claim you're "locked" in to using MS products is laziness. There's perfectly viable production-ready options with a huge base of available software. And if you NEED a particular Windows package, WINE and/or VM's are speedy these days even on cheapish hardware.

 

ReactOS... until it is done, the machine to my right will run Windows...

 

and to believe you dont have to run windows on anything, altho possible, isnt always an option for some... if i didnt run windows, i wouldnt have a job...

 

sloopy.

 

Not really just "possible" anymore. That was 10 years ago. I prefer terms like "easy" and "elegant". Linux supports more hardware than Windows these days by a wide margin out of the box. And for most Windows apps, there are similar Linux apps. There's exceptions which I why I primarily run OpenStep/mach..... I mean..... MacOS X on my studio desktop and laptop (one a generic Core2 $200 PC the other a Macbook). The exceptions for me are Logic Studio for multitrack recording.... Ardour is cool but it ain't Logic. Photoshop.... GIMP is great until you decide you want your work to ever see a printing press.

 

WINE and VM's will allow you to run gotta-have-it Windows apps on other platforms. 3D Windows games however are a mixed bag and can get frustrating. VirtualBox is OK and free, just use an XP serial from a dead machine. Parallels for OSX is absolutely awesome and even has good enough 3D support for Aero and older games. WINE can be a good solution too, it's faster than a VM but has compatibility issues with some things. If you have more than a couple Win32 apps you need, a VM might be a better option. Nice thing about VM's is if your VM gets all infested and infected, your host machine is ok.

 

care to come to my work and convert it to full OSX? the owner would love it, since he is a full on Mac nut...

 

you can start by looking for a OSX or even linux program that is equivelent to 'Portfolio Center'.

 

good luck...

 

sloopy.

[kogden]

[quote name=Sub(Function( )' timestamp='1319444122' post='2394549]

Why bother with an Atari board at all? Why not just stuff a miniature PC motherboard in a case, and make it run Altirra or one of the other Atari 8-bit emulators? If you want additional hardware, just write some software to emulate it. A lot easier...

 

But then I have to buy a Windows Licence.

 

Last I checked there was at least 1 good A8 emulator for Linux. If you have a motherboard with an Intel chipset and CPU, OSX might be an option as well. Cheaper than a Win7 license with a much better interface and access to tons of UNIX/Linux software as well. I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 good DOS A8 emulator as well. FreeDOS is free and several *NIX versions will run DOS binaries as well. Even MS gives away MS-DOS 6.22 I think.

 

Just because you have an x86 CPU doesn't mean you have to put up with a crappy OS with a big bullseye on it and waste money.

 

My family lives a perfectly happy existence with no dedicated Windows systems on our home network. Then again, we've NEVER been dependent on MS operating systems. Ever. Not even my folks when I was a kid. To claim you're "locked" in to using MS products is laziness. There's perfectly viable production-ready options with a huge base of available software. And if you NEED a particular Windows package, WINE and/or VM's are speedy these days even on cheapish hardware.

 

ReactOS... until it is done, the machine to my right will run Windows...

 

and to believe you dont have to run windows on anything, altho possible, isnt always an option for some... if i didnt run windows, i wouldnt have a job...

 

sloopy.

 

Not really just "possible" anymore. That was 10 years ago. I prefer terms like "easy" and "elegant". Linux supports more hardware than Windows these days by a wide margin out of the box. And for most Windows apps, there are similar Linux apps. There's exceptions which I why I primarily run OpenStep/mach..... I mean..... MacOS X on my studio desktop and laptop (one a generic Core2 $200 PC the other a Macbook). The exceptions for me are Logic Studio for multitrack recording.... Ardour is cool but it ain't Logic. Photoshop.... GIMP is great until you decide you want your work to ever see a printing press.

 

WINE and VM's will allow you to run gotta-have-it Windows apps on other platforms. 3D Windows games however are a mixed bag and can get frustrating. VirtualBox is OK and free, just use an XP serial from a dead machine. Parallels for OSX is absolutely awesome and even has good enough 3D support for Aero and older games. WINE can be a good solution too, it's faster than a VM but has compatibility issues with some things. If you have more than a couple Win32 apps you need, a VM might be a better option. Nice thing about VM's is if your VM gets all infested and infected, your host machine is ok.

 

care to come to my work and convert it to full OSX? the owner would love it, since he is a full on Mac nut...

 

you can start by looking for a OSX or even linux program that is equivelent to 'Portfolio Center'.

 

good luck...

 

sloopy.

 

Last un-Atari-related-rant on this, I promise! I know it's not the place

 

Business environments are a trickier much more expensive matter especially when retraining, data migration, and possible migration issues that need to be worked or coded around are factored in. It's certainly doable however.

 

I can think of a couple solutions but they are big UNIX enterprise apps using either Java or web-based clients. Would be pretty pricey but very doable and quite efficient. I would recommend against large business migration when you're firmly entrenched with a big vendor unless that vendor is absolutely no longer meeting your needs or the costs are no longer justifiable in a business sense. It can be done but it's lengthy and never pretty. Your IT folks would have needed to plan for a sane heterogeneous environment from the start and purchase accordingly to minimize lock-in. MCSE's typically don't. People had similar issues migrating from Netware 6 to Win2003 server in a lot of cases. Though they usually migrated because they had to, not because they wanted to and it wasn't cheap.

 

It's even worse if business processes are designed around limitations or quirks in the software.

 

As far as running necessary work software from home on other platforms either RDP (Terminal Services), WINE or VM's still work well. Even if Windows can't be eliminated realistically for certain backoffice apps in a rapid fashion, Terminal Services or Citrix clients run on everything. You could just dedicate a zippy Windows application server just to serve up that app. Performance is GREAT over a LAN as long as you as you tune the server appropriately for the workload and don't get cheap when speccing out the hardware. Makes securing the software easier as well. This also makes a good stopgap if you're going to take a long time to migrate the data from one big enterprise package to another and set up the new environment.

 

It would really depend on your specific use case and environment what the best migration path would be and how much it would cost. Seriously though, macs make good business desktops for the most part but the cost to migrate everything may negate the TCO advantage. Linux is ok if you're requirements for business desktop software are fairly basic. There's more client software options for OSX, more server options for Linux when it comes to commercial packages.

 

I was a network engineer in a past life and taught IT and database courses for a few years after that.... I could make it happen if you're serious. I could use the work :-) Things are slow right now....self-employment is scary at times. If you were just being sarcastic then :-P hehehe

[sloopy]

[quote name=Sub(Function( )' timestamp='1319444122' post='2394549]

Why bother with an Atari board at all? Why not just stuff a miniature PC motherboard in a case, and make it run Altirra or one of the other Atari 8-bit emulators? If you want additional hardware, just write some software to emulate it. A lot easier...

 

But then I have to buy a Windows Licence.

 

Last I checked there was at least 1 good A8 emulator for Linux. If you have a motherboard with an Intel chipset and CPU, OSX might be an option as well. Cheaper than a Win7 license with a much better interface and access to tons of UNIX/Linux software as well. I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 good DOS A8 emulator as well. FreeDOS is free and several *NIX versions will run DOS binaries as well. Even MS gives away MS-DOS 6.22 I think.

 

Just because you have an x86 CPU doesn't mean you have to put up with a crappy OS with a big bullseye on it and waste money.

 

My family lives a perfectly happy existence with no dedicated Windows systems on our home network. Then again, we've NEVER been dependent on MS operating systems. Ever. Not even my folks when I was a kid. To claim you're "locked" in to using MS products is laziness. There's perfectly viable production-ready options with a huge base of available software. And if you NEED a particular Windows package, WINE and/or VM's are speedy these days even on cheapish hardware.

 

ReactOS... until it is done, the machine to my right will run Windows...

 

and to believe you dont have to run windows on anything, altho possible, isnt always an option for some... if i didnt run windows, i wouldnt have a job...

 

sloopy.

 

Not really just "possible" anymore. That was 10 years ago. I prefer terms like "easy" and "elegant". Linux supports more hardware than Windows these days by a wide margin out of the box. And for most Windows apps, there are similar Linux apps. There's exceptions which I why I primarily run OpenStep/mach..... I mean..... MacOS X on my studio desktop and laptop (one a generic Core2 $200 PC the other a Macbook). The exceptions for me are Logic Studio for multitrack recording.... Ardour is cool but it ain't Logic. Photoshop.... GIMP is great until you decide you want your work to ever see a printing press.

 

WINE and VM's will allow you to run gotta-have-it Windows apps on other platforms. 3D Windows games however are a mixed bag and can get frustrating. VirtualBox is OK and free, just use an XP serial from a dead machine. Parallels for OSX is absolutely awesome and even has good enough 3D support for Aero and older games. WINE can be a good solution too, it's faster than a VM but has compatibility issues with some things. If you have more than a couple Win32 apps you need, a VM might be a better option. Nice thing about VM's is if your VM gets all infested and infected, your host machine is ok.

 

care to come to my work and convert it to full OSX? the owner would love it, since he is a full on Mac nut...

 

you can start by looking for a OSX or even linux program that is equivelent to 'Portfolio Center'.

 

good luck...

 

sloopy.

 

Last un-Atari-related-rant on this, I promise! I know it's not the place

 

Business environments are a trickier much more expensive matter especially when retraining, data migration, and possible migration issues that need to be worked or coded around are factored in. It's certainly doable however.

 

I can think of a couple solutions but they are big UNIX enterprise apps using either Java or web-based clients. Would be pretty pricey but very doable and quite efficient. I would recommend against large business migration when you're firmly entrenched with a big vendor unless that vendor is absolutely no longer meeting your needs or the costs are no longer justifiable in a business sense. It can be done but it's lengthy and never pretty. Your IT folks would have needed to plan for a sane heterogeneous environment from the start and purchase accordingly to minimize lock-in. MCSE's typically don't. People had similar issues migrating from Netware 6 to Win2003 server in a lot of cases. Though they usually migrated because they had to, not because they wanted to and it wasn't cheap.

 

It's even worse if business processes are designed around limitations or quirks in the software.

 

As far as running necessary work software from home on other platforms either RDP (Terminal Services), WINE or VM's still work well. Even if Windows can't be eliminated realistically for certain backoffice apps in a rapid fashion, Terminal Services or Citrix clients run on everything. You could just dedicate a zippy Windows application server just to serve up that app. Performance is GREAT over a LAN as long as you as you tune the server appropriately for the workload and don't get cheap when speccing out the hardware. Makes securing the software easier as well. This also makes a good stopgap if you're going to take a long time to migrate the data from one big enterprise package to another and set up the new environment.

 

It would really depend on your specific use case and environment what the best migration path would be and how much it would cost. Seriously though, macs make good business desktops for the most part but the cost to migrate everything may negate the TCO advantage. Linux is ok if you're requirements for business desktop software are fairly basic. There's more client software options for OSX, more server options for Linux when it comes to commercial packages.

 

I was a network engineer in a past life and taught IT and database courses for a few years after that.... I could make it happen if you're serious. I could use the work :-) Things are slow right now....self-employment is scary at times. If you were just being sarcastic then :-P hehehe

 

the comment was only partially serious... schwab performance technology wont let you have a lisc for the data we need without a lisc for the software... well its all once lisc actually, with 3 diff keys...

 

we run two servers at work, both run linux DOM0's with Windows 2008 VM's, one for RDP (all employees do their work in RDP), and one for SQL (backend for portfolio center)... we didnt really need to upgrade for any other reason then portfolio center doesnt support windows 2003 anymore (yes this program is so important to the company we completely updated our server room for it...)

 

and i am the entire IT dept ;')

 

sloopy.