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Was just playing this game earlier tonight... honestly, hands down, has to be one of my favorite games on the Jaguar. I'm torn... I like this game, Defender 2000, Wolf3D, I-War, downfall+, Tempest 2000, Skyhammer, Elansar, and Battlemorph CD.

 

I feel the same way. A perfect game to pick up a for a few quick rounds and then get back to work. I'm running through AvP again (for the first time in nearly 20 years!) and that's just the opposite. I have to schedule a chunk of time to play it. So I end up playing Impulse X more often, even though AvP is clearly one of the games that defined the system.

 

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So Jaguar Fans show some support for Matthias if this becomes available for sale, we are taking a close look on this if it makes

sense to do a large scale Jaguar project.

 

Are the number of sales interesting enough?

 

Or will this remain a secret? :)

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Are the number of sales interesting enough?

 

Or will this remain a secret? :)

 

I don't think it means anything other than trying to encourage people to buy Matthias excellent game. In an inappropriate way. Matthias' game stands well enough on its own. It's a very fun game.

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The "we are taking a close look in this" sounded serious enough to me.

 

But I think that what you said is a more realistic view :)

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Are the number of sales interesting enough?

 

Or will this remain a secret? :)

 

Well i don´t know the exact number but it was around 100-150, closer to 100.

That`s certainly not incredibly amazing. Of course this is not about making money.

 

"Homebrew" game dev for the most never has been about money, but as lifetime is not unlimited

it makes spending a couple of years (for a large project) for a game with an audience of

150 people hard to justify for yourself.

 

That said, the Jaguar always has a special place in our heart...

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Great game hope more people will discover it, my kids love it and so do I thinking of buying the cd version also! hope you guys will make more games for the Jaguar, If not thank you for this one😊

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Are the number of sales interesting enough?

 

Or will this remain a secret? :)

 

 

You were responding to a post that was from 2012. Just to make it clear though, they produced them already... I think a second run too? Can't remember. If you're interested in the game, they still have a few copies of the game in England that you can buy online: http://sales1632.myzen.co.uk/acatalog/16_32_Webshop_Jaguar_Cartridge_Games_16.html (halfway down the page)

 

I would say, it's definitely worth it. I have it on cartridge and the CD version. It's hands-down, one of the top 5 games I have for the Jaguar. Totally worth, in my opinion, the money you spend on it. Truthfully... if you ever get to the point in your life where you feel like you've spent too much on games and need to sell the stuff off, you'll likely (at least) get all your money back from the game if you sell it on eBay afterwards. But... I doubt you'll sell it since this is one of the more fun games.

 

 

Great game hope more people will discover it, my kids love it and so do I thinking of buying the cd version also! hope you guys will make more games for the Jaguar, If not thank you for this one😊

 

The CD version is definitely cool.. you can make your own levels and stuff. I prefer using the cart version though...

 

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Well i don´t know the exact number but it was around 100-150, closer to 100.

That`s certainly not incredibly amazing. Of course this is not about making money.

 

"Homebrew" game dev for the most never has been about money, but as lifetime is not unlimited

it makes spending a couple of years (for a large project) for a game with an audience of

150 people hard to justify for yourself.

 

That said, the Jaguar always has a special place in our heart...

 

Well that sums it up. It's too bad.. But we'll have to move on. Fact is that while I personally love Impulse X, many didn't buy it because a simplistic style Arkanoid clone or whatever.

 

However something that Duranik would do would most likely have a reception more akin to Out Of This World where 200 copies sold out immediately with more wanted. I like Impulse X but OOTW would be a more appropriate yardstick to judge it by.

 

Anywho let's move on. Duranik we wish you well in your endeavors. Thanks for giving us a really cool demo.

Edited by JagChris

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I second that!

 

 

I guess a better way to put it would be that Impulse X is a great game it's just not a 'killer app'. Like Out Of This World or something Duranik would do like possibly finishing up NATIVE.

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Well that sums it up. It's too bad.. But we'll have to move on. Fact is that while I personally love Impulse X, many didn't buy it because a simplistic style Arkanoid clone or whatever.

 

However something that Duranik would do would most likely have a reception more akin to Out Of This World where 200 copies sold out immediately with more wanted. I like Impulse X but OOTW would be a more appropriate yardstick to judge it by.

 

Anywho let's move on. Duranik we wish you well in your endeavors. Thanks for giving us a really cool demo.

 

 

I thought Impulse-X was awesome (as I've said about 15 times before in this thread). It's definitely a killer App on the Jaguar. It does a really good job of using several capabilities on the Jaguar. I went back to play Arkanoid 1 and 2 after the fact to see how it held up, and those games are total crap compared with Impulse-X. I don't think you realize how old the two Arkanoid games are... but the graphics are piss-poor compared to Impulse-X.

 

As far as I'm concerned, it's an AWESOME addition to the Jaguar... in the top 5 for me.

 

I also don't know about people "not" buying it (cartridge)... they totally sold out. There are only a handful of games left in England that are for sale, but in the US, totally sold out.

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I like it too. I really do. But for many people an Arkanoid clone is not a killer app on the Jaguar. The sales of OOTW bear that out in comparison. Especially considering the price difference. OOTW was over twice the price and 200 blew out the door in a brief amount of time. And anything Duranik might do along the lines of Native would sell out 200 copies even faster. A killer app that is exclusive to the Jaguar? IMO No comparison.

 

And the sales numbers confuse me too. I thought it was doing better than was stated by Duranik. It may have been slower out of the gate and some even stated they weren't interested as an Arkanoid clone. Even at $35. But I thought even now it was still chugging along slow but sure in sales. People seem to be always popping up hey where can I get Impulse X!!! every few weeks.

 

Looking at the high score web page I see Sam Bushman has bought a copy this year at least.

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Hello!

 

It's not easy to judge about the sales numbers of Impulse X as the game was released on two media - CD and cartridge. Having a pause of one year between the release of the CD version and the cartridge version doesn't make it easier. Also a lot of people bought both versions, so 1 + 1 isn't 2, it's more like 1.x .

 

Kind regards

Matthias

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Yeah, I got both CD and Cartridge. Actually, I bought two cartridges just in case one failed. Haven't really spent any time with the CD version, but I play the cartridge game at least once every two weeks.

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Well i don´t know the exact number but it was around 100-150, closer to 100.

That`s certainly not incredibly amazing. Of course this is not about making money.

 

"Homebrew" game dev for the most never has been about money, but as lifetime is not unlimited

it makes spending a couple of years (for a large project) for a game with an audience of

150 people hard to justify for yourself.

 

That said, the Jaguar always has a special place in our heart...

 

We have another story of a Jaguar owner passing up on Impulse X because they had 'breakout' and liked it better or somesuch. As much as I personally like Impulse X I must state again that it's not an adequate measuring stick for a unique Jaguar title that Duranik may produce.

 

Out Of This World is a better yardstick. And despite it's rocket sales some still passed on that because 1.) they missed out and 2.) they could get it for $5 elsewhere for nearly every other platform.

 

So that being said, a unique high powered Duranik Jaguar title would be in a sales category all it's own. IMO there is no existing yardstick in the Jaguar community to measure what it's success might be. Out of This World I don't believe is adequate and most definitely and unfortunately not Impulse X.

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Out Of This World is a better yardstick. And despite it's rocket sales some still passed on that because 1.) they missed out and 2.) they could get it for $5 elsewhere for nearly every other platform.

There's a few more things to consider with Another World. It's an iconic game and has a cult following. On other forums I use such as NeoGAF, there were people buying it or wishing they had, when they didn't even own a Jaguar or intend to ever buy one, they just wanted to own the game in a rare format. Any further demand is going to be skewed higher thanks to speculators eyeing an opportunity based on resale prices.

 

The numbers 100 to 150 units are credible and within a safe projection when working out the investment and return. There's a -massive- investment required to put a game on a cart, with a label, in a box with an insert and a manual. Another World, with its 200 sales, was done on a non-profit basis. To make an epic game and present it in an epic format takes epic cash money. Estimate to sell 200 copies and only sell 150, with these kinds of unit production costs, and not only have you spent two years of your life, but a large chunk of your own wallet. If you're going down this route, you have to think things through as a businessman, not an atari fan. You've also got to attempt to project what the state of play will be 2 or 3 years down the line - will there be as many people around buying new Jaguar games as today or 2 or 3 years ago? That's not easy to do, and you have to err on the side of caution or risk a potential financial deficit.

 

But the point made above isn't regarding sales of units, as stated, it's the investment of a couple of years of your life for an audience of 150 or so. This is why many devs choose to put the binaries out as well. You make games to be played, the best way to maximise how much a game is played is to make sure the potential audience is as large as possible. In fact, I would argue that by putting out a game in a physical form only actually limits how much it would be played even further - some people buy them to simply shelve them: collected, catalogued, another box ticked. People might be surprised how many games are resold down the line completely unplayed or how many people buy 2 copies of something - one to play, the other to preserve.

 

But Duranik know all about that, they're atarisceners from way back when, they know the same atari spirit others of us do.

Edited by sh3-rg
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There's a few more things to consider with Another World. It's an iconic game and has a cult following. On other forums I use such as NeoGAF, there were people buying it or wishing they had, when they didn't even own a Jaguar or intend to ever buy one, they just wanted to own the game in a rare format. Any further demand is going to be skewed higher thanks to speculators eyeing an opportunity based on resale prices.

 

The numbers 100 to 150 units are credible and within a safe projection when working out the investment and return. There's a -massive- investment required to put a game on a cart, with a label, in a box with an insert and a manual. Another World, with its 200 sales, was done on a non-profit basis. To make an epic game and present it in an epic format takes epic cash money. Estimate to sell 200 copies and only sell 150, with these kinds of unit production costs, and not only have you spent two years of your life, but a large chunk of your own wallet. If you're going down this route, you have to think things through as a businessman, not an atari fan. You've also got to attempt to project what the state of play will be 2 or 3 years down the line - will there be as many people around buying new Jaguar games as today or 2 or 3 years ago? That's not easy to do, and you have to err on the side of caution or risk a potential financial deficit.

 

But the point made above isn't regarding sales of units, as stated, it's the investment of a couple of years of your life for an audience of 150 or so. This is why many devs choose to put the binaries out as well. You make games to be played, the best way to maximise how much a game is played is to make sure the potential audience is as large as possible. In fact, I would argue that by putting out a game in a physical form only actually limits how much it would be played even further - some people buy them to simply shelve them: collected, catalogued, another box ticked. People might be surprised how many games are resold down the line completely unplayed or how many people buy 2 copies of something - one to play, the other to preserve.

 

But Duranik know all about that, they're atarisceners from way back when, they know the same atari spirit others of us do.

 

 

You are perfectly right here, currently we are doing a little rerun of our old Lynx game with a box and little plastic casing etc.

It consists of around 5 different parts you need to manage, manufacture etc, this is not a lot and it still took us almost 6 months

to the point were we felt save enough to collect preorders, all of this is of course done in spare time.

Of course nobody wants to have 100 of unsold games and boxes sitting in the basement.

 

 

For a jag game, well we have something on the drawing board for quite some time but it needs a lot of memory and a custom card

design as the current 4 or 6 MB Boards are not enough, Jag CD is not an option.

Custom card - > Expensive - > Risky to design and put money upfront - > Work little to not at all on the project

And no, we won´t do a Kickstarter ;)

Edited by Duranik
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For a jag game, well we have something on the drawing board for quite some time but it needs a lot of memory and a custom card

design as the current 4 or 6 MB Boards are not enough, Jag CD is not an option.

Custom card - > Expensive - > Risky to design and put money upfront - > Work little to not at all on the project

And no, we won´t do a Kickstarter ;)

 

Ahem...

 

Selfishly, glad to hear it.

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But the point made above isn't regarding sales of units, as stated, it's the investment of a couple of years of your life for an audience of 150 or so.

 

 

For a jag game, well we have something on the drawing board for quite some time but it needs a lot of memory and a custom card

design as the current 4 or 6 MB Boards are not enough, Jag CD is not an option.

Custom card - > Expensive - > Risky to design and put money upfront - > Work little to not at all on the project

And no, we won´t do a Kickstarter ;)

 

I'll put my two cents on the table about this.

First of all... hate me if you want, I would prefer Duranik with their proven ability to do AAA games in both presentation and game design to concentrate on other platforms than the Jaguar. I own a Jag, primarily because of the homebrew scene. The point being, I own it for games homebrewers choose to do for Jaguar instead of something else. I would not ask them to do something for Jaguar, but I accept it if that is the platform of their choice. If I had to decide I'd rather see Duranik grace the Lynx, Mega Drive, Mega-CD, Master System, Game Gear, Saturn, Dreamcast, 32X, PS1, PS2 or Game Boy. I just prefer all of those systems personally.

 

That said... I know Duranik have a soft spot for the Jaguar. And I know, as they would do for any other system, what they would deliver would probably be the very top of what is achievable on the hardware. The Jaguar would get the very best it could offer I am sure. And I would like to see it, just not as much as I would like to see the best the other systems could do.

With Duranik's kind of games (unlike Reboot's, which I also love as you all know) what we would get is the much asked for 64-bit POWA showcased. Their production values are second to none in homebrews, and looking at Sturmwind and Alpine Games, they beat 99% of commercial releases too. More so on the Jaguar with its many below average beta versions that were thrown on the market.

 

The 150 or so sales of Impulse X, or the 200 of Another World, are imo most likely (and I can of course not guarantee!!!) the lower end of the spectrum for good games. Impulse X suffers from being a Breakout style game as mentioned before, and having little media attention. Another World did imo not meet its sales potential either for lack of PR, and limited runs. Over the years I have just watched what a difference that can make; Zaku sold multiple times as many units as any other Lynx homebrew because of its professional look and some media attention. And I know from experience that even Super Fighter Team's sales of Mega Drive/Genesis games (naturally a more popular system than Jaguar, I know) have been eclipsed BY FAR with Pier Solar, a game that offered even higher production values and even better marketing.

 

The Jaguar has lower potential, but the concept remains the same: The better the production values and the marketing, the more it can sell. I think we have yet to see an equivalent of Zaku on the Jaguar in both production values and PR. And I am sure just like Pier Solar left Beggar Prince etc far behind, so could Zaku be overtaken given enough work in PR.

 

What we have right now, both on Jaguar and Lynx, is homebrews that are primarily bought by people in the Atari community. As sh3-rg stated, there are probably more Another World fans that would have bought, had they known soon enough; but probably sales momentum is now over.

A really great looking game with lots of depth is able to sell beyond the die hard community of the system. Many more people than the ones that hang out on AA or other Atari forums have a Jaguar. The Jag may not be their primary system, but they are retro gamers and collectors. But if a game is spectacular they will be interested.

It will draw a certain amount of press coverage by itself, and if you work on it (or get someone to do it) it will be much more.

 

I think given a fair price, good media attention and a great quality the Jaguar can sell a game in excess of 600 copies. And probably more, 600 is a pretty humble number in my mind.

 

Of course I can not back it up. Just my experience and feeling.

 

Impule X, Another World, Lynxopoly are the kind of games that sell in the 150-200 range. Little media attention, small print runs.

Zaku, Beggar Prince, Wukong etc sold in the 600-1500 range... decent media attention, larger print runs and lower price

Pier Solar sold more than 6000 I believe... good media attention, large print runs. Sturmwind also had good attention and is still in demand, no idea how many it could sell if it was still produced.

 

No Jag game will sell 6000. But 600+? Yeah.

 

 

In the end, it remains a risk, money must be paid in advance to manufacture. I totally understand not wanting (or simply not being able) to pay up-front for a large production run that could lower the single unit cost for customers and assure good availibility in the hype phase. Not trying to talk anyone into that. Just saying, given the willingness and ability to do what is required, I am sure the Jaguar can sell more.

Edited by 108 Stars
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With Duranik's kind of games (unlike Reboot's, which I also love as you all know) what we would get is the much asked for 64-bit POWA showcased.

 

DEL REBOOTEROIDS *.* /Y

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DEL REBOOTEROIDS *.* /Y

I remember Kevin saying something of a February 2014 release... yet I don't even remember my playthrough! Can't have been good if it slipped my mind after just a year! :P

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No Jag game will sell 6000. But 600+? Yeah.

 

 

In the end, it remains a risk, money must be paid in advance to manufacture. I totally understand not wanting (or simply not being able) to pay up-front for a large production run that could lower the single unit cost for customers and assure good availibility in the hype phase. Not trying to talk anyone into that. Just saying, given the willingness and ability to do what is required, I am sure the Jaguar can sell more.

 

I don't believe that for a second. I don't see 600 people out there ready to throw 60 euros a copy for -any- Jaguar game. There isn't a sufficient active fanbase at any one time. You could maybe trickle a number of those over a period of years, but that's a hell of a risk to take and a lot of money tied up over a long period.

 

There are economies of scale, but not to the extent that you assume above. Far better would be to do one safe/manageable/sensible run, complete that, and do another and another if demand existed.

 

Any idea how much of an investment you'd need up front to produce 600 carts games in shell, with label, box, manual and insert? And let's assume these carts are jagtopus-type flashable in 2 minutes and not burning EPROMs and soldering them to boards.

 

If the number you thought of is anywhere under 20,000 euros, you need to think bigger. Then if you only manage to sell 200 and trickle the rest... you haven't even got half your money back for a very long time.

And that's today, in 2015. With a 2-3 year project, how many people are around and interested in buying Jaguar stuff? You have to be sensible and pragmatic approaching this, there's no guessing and heart-ruling-head. There's no novelty factor anymore as there was with Jaguar homebrews in the late 2000s. Anyone can sit and make a game these days, have it pressed or buy a small amount of carts and put it out, the tools are there for even the novice programmer to build either 4MB+ or multi-load CD titles without a great deal of effort away from the actual game creation. Look at Orion - he's put out more games recently than everyone else put together in over a decade of the early days of Jaguar homebrew. More devs, more games, more choice, more happening. Nobody is producing 500+ of anything in one go.

 

The situation now can go one of 3 ways... bring more people in as more is possible and more is happening. that would be ideal and I'd love to see it. Second possibility is there will be no effect at all and things tick over as they have been recently. Or thirdly, perhaps even less people are interested in Jaguar stuff years down the line for a number of possible reasons:

 

  • The old Atari fans are now nearer 50 than 40 and if they're the type to go and get back into the old stuff, they've likely already been there and done that.
  • Novelty factor wore off - Jaguar homebrews used to feel "special" when it was one every 2 years. Now it seems like it's one every month or two.
  • The 30-somethings who look back to their childhood aren't looking back to Atari days, they're looking back to the playstation/dreamcast era at best.
  • The price barrier for anyone wanting to get into Jaguar just buying the most basic of hardware setups is insane. Maybe it won't be long until a boxed Jaguar costs you the RRP from 1993/4!

 

Anyone planning on releasing a jaguar game in units of 500+ in 2015 or beyond is either going to have to be:

 

  • loaded and doing it for the fun instead of doing a day job (in which case, they can afford to sell them at cost or less and guarantee more impulse purchases and therefore get closer to the 500+ numbers)
  • doing it on CD, in which case all they can build forts and play frisbee with them until they sell out by, say, 2020 or so, because lol CD the costs to produce 100 are very similar to multiple-hundreds - cost is mostly in the set-up, not the following individual unit cost.
  • going to end up behind on their monthly bills and rueing the day they over-optimistically bet the house on larger-scale Jaguar game production

 

As for Lynx game numbers... the units are cheaper, the install base is magnitudes greater (iirc, the worst sales estimate for lynx is 1/2m - more than 4x the amount of Jaguars we know to be out in the wild. Some say 2m - that's 16/17 times the amount of Jaguars sold...). Therefore not comparable.

 

I remember Kevin saying something of a February 2014 release... yet I don't even remember my playthrough! Can't have been good if it slipped my mind after just a year! :P

 

Yeah, well, people probably shouldn't pressure me to stand up and talk shit in front of others when I feel rough and really would rather do pretty much anything but. I'd have had to have gone home and started work on the level designs day and night and done very little else with my life, and stupidly I was pretty much prepared to do that. Then realised that wasn't at all practical and ever so slightly over-optimistic. The 30 levels you played took well over a week of full-time effort and fine-tuning, by hand, typing in lines of data by hand directly into the files. There's a tool to do this now, but still, there's dozens of things I'd rather be doing than sat designing levels for a game that, while very nice, I am sick of the mere mention of. Maybe because I know that once all that is done and all the other stuff is ready, there's a solid month sat putting all the carts together, testing etc. And like I said... dozens of things I'd rather be doing.

 

Good level design isn't trivial, takes an enormous amount of testing and feedback, and can be the most boring shit on earth. I'm not into Atari stuff for the love of level design. This is probably why there are more of certain types of games that others. Once you cross that line from simple, formulaic, generated or procedural level design, you go from a fun, quick project to serious game development requiring an extensive team of good testers who know hoe to give useful, constructive and potentially upsetting feedback (not the kind that say "oh, that's great" put it on a cart!", but the kind who fully understand game, how they work and what makes them fun - as we had with partycle and stratagem in Reservoir Gods. Essential). And that just isn't the kind of material for a few hours here and there as a fun passtime. If 'roids merely featured the kind of level design that says "more of this, faster that, less energy, not as much time" it's have been out and forgotten in 2011. As things stand, it's highly-scripted, massively tunable and in need of months of real hard work to do it justice.

 

Maybe if I break my right arm or something, can't work and can't really type. Maybe.

 

 

 

what we would get is the much asked for 64-bit POWA showcased.

 

Surely you understand the requirements of POWA are fulfilled only in the realms of THREE DIMENSIONS (especially textures and voxels @ sub-25/30fps).

 

Everyone knows the Jaguar's OP can throw around a ton of sprites, scale them, flip them, rmw etc. etc. There's nothing to prove in the 2D realm, surely. If anything, Native proved a lot of skill producing shiny renders and a touch of rmw magic in the lulls can go a long way to looking completely amazing and better than the kinds of things that were seen on the 16-bit machines. But then you need to design the game and levels that live up to it. See above. It's another whole boat-load of effort and custom tools. I have no doubt Duranik can pull it off. I sincerely doubt many more than 200 people would ever get to experience it should it only be released on cartridge.

Edited by sh3-rg
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