Which Atari Should I Buy?

[mikem]

I've got a bit of a retro computer collection going and have decided that I need to add at least one Atari to the pack. My interests are primarily gaming, but I would like something that gives me flexibility to play with the most software and hardware goodies. I'd love to get a Falcon, but that one might need to wait for now (too expensive and incompatible from what I can tell).

 

The TT, Mega STE and 1040STE all look like reasonable candidates. The TT looks like the most interesting, but I'm also concerned about compatibility. From what I can tell, the Mega STE and 1040STE are pretty much the same machine except in different cases, so both should have an equal level of compatibility to software (please correct me if I'm wrong!!). Mega STE seems like a better choice since it has a HD built in, but again it's fairly expensive.

 

I just picked up an Ultrasatan on another forum, so it would be nice if whichever machine I choose is compatible.

 

Which one would you choose and why?

 

Thanks!

[thgill]

For the ST series, I would suggest either a STe or Mega STe.

 

The Mega STe also benefits from having a switchable faster CPU. It can run at the standard ST/STe speed of 8 MHz or be switched to a faster 16MHz.

 

When buying a Mega STe make sure the machine has an internal HD AND the scsi controller card. This is important because many times when someone sells a used MSTe that doesn't have the HD installed, there is a good chance the SCSI card was removed at some point and that SCSI card is very difficult and expensive to find on its own. However if you have an UltraSatan its not a really big deal.

 

 

MSTe machines tend to run quite a bit more money than a regular 520 or 1040 STe machine. Unless you get a really, really early STe, all of them (STe and MSTe) can be upgraded to 4 megabytes of ram using cheap 30 pin simms. Some of the earliest 520/1040 STe machines need SIP memory chips to upgrade them. However you are very unlikely to run into one of these machines. Probably better chance of getting struck by lightning.

 

 

However, if considering a 520 or 1040STe, I would watch out for the revision of the DMA chip. The DMA chip controls a couple different things, however the problem is with hard drives via the ASCI port (thats what external hard drives and things like the UltraSatan plug into). The early STe DMA were known to corrupt data on hard drives and generally advised to be replaced. The chip is soldered in so it would take some hardware skills to replace it.

 

The good DMA chip is marked as:

C398739-001A

 

The bad DMA chip is marked as:

C025913-38 PH23-001A

 

This is a largish chip located on the motherboard under the floppy drive region.

 

 

Here is a pic of a good one:

 

 

 

 

Definitely ask the seller if they know which it has. Doesn't affect the MSTe that I know of.

[anzac]

No MegaSTe´s were affected with the DMA chip AFAIK

 

I remember at the time i had my own STe recently when the bad DMA chip came into question and there was a way to check by the serial number if the machine needed the DMA chip replaced or not without having to open the machine. it was on most magazines at the time, so maybe a web search will give relevant information.

 

Also, this was an issue affecting a small number of machines, early shipments of STes only. more common than the SIP machines, but still pretty rare.

[dark willow]

I've got a bit of a retro computer collection going and have decided that I need to add at least one Atari to the pack. My interests are primarily gaming, but I would like something that gives me flexibility to play with the most software and hardware goodies. I'd love to get a Falcon, but that one might need to wait for now (too expensive and incompatible from what I can tell).

 

The TT, Mega STE and 1040STE all look like reasonable candidates. The TT looks like the most interesting, but I'm also concerned about compatibility. From what I can tell, the Mega STE and 1040STE are pretty much the same machine except in different cases, so both should have an equal level of compatibility to software (please correct me if I'm wrong!!). Mega STE seems like a better choice since it has a HD built in, but again it's fairly expensive.

 

I just picked up an Ultrasatan on another forum, so it would be nice if whichever machine I choose is compatible.

 

Which one would you choose and why?

 

Thanks!

 

If you want to run games, then avoid the TT030. It's a VERY interesting system and a great design, but it won't run most ST series games (neither will the Falcon, though that system does have some games of its own). The stock STe is probably your best bet. They are easily available, cheap and reasonably flexible. You can run STe only games, and use SELTOS to run the really old games that need TOS 1.02.

 

The Mega STe is an interesting system and is reasonably compatible, but you don't see many around - and you will be using SELTOS a lot more to get games going, since they use TOS 2.x rather than the 1.62 stock STEs use. The main advantage of the MSTE is that is has a 16Mhz mode and SCSI support for mass storage, but most games will only run in 8Mhz, and you already have the Ultrasatan for mass storage, so I don't really see the benefit to you in an MSTE. In terms of modern hardware goodies, you can get ethernet, USB and IDE for any Atari through the ROM port with Netusbee and Paksud, and Ultrasatan likewise works on all models, as it uses the ACSI port - just make sure the DMA chip is OK (as has already been mentioned - though I've never had a duff one myself).

[jens]

With an UltraSatan existing I'd say go for a 1040, ideally STe.

Great for playing lots of ST games.

 

I have one STe with a 'bad' DMA chip here, but I had no issues with it when using the machine.

[marcfrick2112]

Wow, I don't have an Atari 16-bit computer yet, but this thread is Very Informative!

 

Gotta get an ST someday....

[mikem]

Thank you everyone for your feedback!! Sounds like it'll be an 1040STe or MSTe. Too bad the TT030 is incompatible... looks like I could pick up one of those babies for much less than an MSTe.

 

I currently have an Amiga 1200 I'm working on, but getting games onto it is a PITA. The nice thing about Atari is that I should be able to easily transfer apps onto it from a PC (at least it seems that way, from what I've read so far...)

 

Thanks!!

Edited November 9, 2011 by mikem

[thgill]

One thing you will find that's pretty nice about the Atari ST series (in comparison to Amiga's) is that they do a pretty good job of switching between NTSC and PAL modes for most games. And there are 60to50Hz apps to force PAL games to run correctly on NTSC machines.

 

However this isn't 100% foolproof as I have ran into a few games and some euro demo's that will not run at the correct speed on an NTSC ST machine. But generally speaking they are pretty good in this respect.

 

 

Also, if you find that you are wanting to play mostly PAL software on an NTSC machine, you can replace your TOS chips with UK PAL TOS chips to force the machine to always boot up in 50Hz mode.

 

 

Or, you could be hardcore like me and just import a PAL STe from the UK. Need to either use a stepup transformer or replace the psu in that case since the built in power supplies aren't auto switching.

Edited November 9, 2011 by thgill

[Charlie_]

The speed of the Mega STe is well worth hunting one down. Lots of games really benefit from the faster cpu and it is hard to go back to a 8mhz system after using a MSTE

[+wood_jl]

However, if considering a 520 or 1040STe, I would watch out for the revision of the DMA chip. The DMA chip controls a couple different things, however the problem is with hard drives via the ASCI port (thats what external hard drives and things like the UltraSatan plug into). The early STe DMA were known to corrupt data on hard drives and generally advised to be replaced. The chip is soldered in so it would take some hardware skills to replace it.

 

The good DMA chip is marked as:

C398739-001A

 

The bad DMA chip is marked as:

C025913-38 PH23-001A

 

Definitely ask the seller if they know which it has. Doesn't affect the MSTe that I know of.

 

To be quite serious, I don't think that asking the seller is going to do any good.

 

In all likelihood, the seller isn't going to know - if we're talking Ebay. Lots of people aren't going to disassemble the computer and remove the RF shield and floppy drive (etc....etc...) to make this determination, and wouldn't even know what they're looking for.

 

On the off-chance that they *actually do* know, they're NOT GOING TO SAY; they'll simply play ignorant.

 

Toward this end, when I bought the 1040STe from you last year (earlier this year? whenever??) I didn't even bother to ask. I, myself, haven't even looked, but I'm assuming the worst. I'm still quite happy with the deal, and as I said - I assumed the worst, and I'm still happy! Very happy! Now, having said that, since I see you're quite informed on the issue - which do I have? HA HA HA!!! As I said, I'm expecting the worst - and I will take it apart and look eventually when I get time.

 

I like the Mega STe (got one about the same time) but they're too expensive. I could also say the same thing on the STe. For a non-Atari-specialist collector who's looking to pile an Atari ST into the collection, I don't see that going for these "higher end" models is going to net them too much.

 

I think a couple of good points for the original poster would be:

 

(1) There is almost NO (!!!!!!!!!) support for the "e" features in the STe, Mega STe, etc. EVERYBODY here knows this, but they still like to suggest the STe series.

 

(2) For running games, etc - 1MB of RAM is enough. The machine was most popular in the 520ST/1040ST era - before any "e" and the 512K of the 520ST was very common, so the 1MB of the 1040ST is plenty. True, it's easy to upgrade the "e" series with SIMMS (and nearly impossible to upgrade the original machines), but if you get a 1040ST and want to run all (most?) games, etc, you already have what you need, and there's no need.

 

(3) If you did get an STe and it had the "bad" DMA chip, it wouldn't amount to a fart, unless you run a hard disk, or a hard-disk substitute (SD card reader) off the DMA port. You'd never even know you had it, otherwise.

 

I recommend a 1040ST - Not 1040STe - for the casual collector. Reason? (1) Cheap, (2) Run all the software, (3) Cheap, (4) have enough memory.

 

I like the STe, like the Mega STe, have both, and the machine I use the most is a 1040ST. Go figure. I don't have space to have everything set up all the time, and the one I was used to continues to serve.

[thgill]

Now, having said that, since I see you're quite informed on the issue - which do I have? HA HA HA!!! As I said, I'm expecting the worst - and I will take it apart and look eventually when I get time.

 

I am 99% sure it has the good DMA chip in it if I recall correctly. Though its probably worth verifying.

 

 

Also, its still worth asking the seller if they know. I agree if you are buying from eBay its probably a waste of time, but wouldn't hurt to check.

 

 

Since you don't use that STe much, how about selling it back to me...

[Charlie_]

For the most part wood_jl is correct. A good 1040STFM is probably the best for a casual user. It does play everything except a handful of things made for the Ste.

 

However, if you go anywhere beyond just casual, you will want to have a STe simply because the memory is easy to upgrade to 4mb with simms. Then if you have a HDD or or other mass storage device you can take advantage of all the great hdd patches out there. (playing the best ST games from hard disk or other storage solution) Many require 4mb of ram.

 

http://dbug.kicks-ass.net/dbug/patch.asp

[Tempest]

I currently have an Amiga 1200 I'm working on, but getting games onto it is a PITA.

I used a CF card to move games to mine. Get a PCMCIA to CF adapter and you're all set.

 

I have a Mega STE and while it's a nice looking computer, I never use it. It's redundant to have both an Amiga and an ST if you're only doing gaming since there are only a handful of exclusive ST games, and most games are the same or better on the Amiga. If only the STE line had done better. The Atari arcade games, Oids, and Sundog are probably the exclusive games (although Sundog is also available on the Apple II).

 

And no, the Mega STE isn't for sale. At least not for a price anyone would want to pay. I might sell my Mega 4 some day though.

 

Tempest

[Christos]

There aren't many E games but those that are, are really worth the trouble. Also the STE demoscene is very impressive for anyone who might be interested in that and finally, if you plan to get a hard disk then the 4mb's of RAM are really important. That's why we like to suggest the STE.

[+DarkLord]

(1) There is almost NO (!!!!!!!!!) support for the "e" features in the STe, Mega STe, etc. EVERYBODY here knows this, but they still like to suggest the STe series.

 

Sorry, but not "Everybody" does know that.

 

Sure, the STe line didn't get the full support it deserved, but I'll betcha if you

put most Atari users in front of each machine and showed the demo's and

games that do take advantage of the STe, they wouldn't want to go back.

 

Show them the easily upgradeable memory, show them the enhanced joysticks,

show them, StarDust, Obsession, Zero Five, etc,...then get into the demo scene,

where there is some gorgeous eye candy!

 

One other quality that I rarely see mentioned...the STe is newer. I'd bet odds

are that most STe's are in better general shape than their older cousins.

 

HTHs.

[fortycal88]

I just saw a complete Atari ST520 with SC1224 monitor go up on ebay with a starting bid of $19.95. Would be an awesome unit to own as there were so many good games for it. Unfortunatley I dont have the room for it.

[+DarkLord]

That's a great price. Shipping will be a bear on the SC1224. Be curious to see

what it finally goes for.

[+wood_jl]

(1) There is almost NO (!!!!!!!!!) support for the "e" features in the STe, Mega STe, etc. EVERYBODY here knows this, but they still like to suggest the STe series.

 

Sorry, but not "Everybody" does know that.

 

Well, perhaps then it is all the more necessary for me to have said that.

 

Sure, the STe line didn't get the full support it deserved, but I'll betcha if you

put most Atari users in front of each machine and showed the demo's and

games that do take advantage of the STe, they wouldn't want to go back.

I'm not knocking the STe (I did get one and a Mega STe) but I am *really* into the ST again. I wanted these machines because I wanted to see what I had missed out on, and I have a personal history with the ST from the original launch 520ST up until I bailed - about the time the STe was coming out. There hadn't been an Atari dealer in Anchorage for YEARS, by that time.

 

The STe is cool, but rather than say "didn't get the full support" I still say "very little support." To make a comparison to the Amiga computers - how much support did the "AGA" 1200 (etc) machines get? Not many. Mere handful of games.

 

Show them the easily upgradeable memory, show them the enhanced joysticks,

show them, StarDust, Obsession, Zero Five, etc,...then get into the demo scene,

where there is some gorgeous eye candy!

That's why I was saying with 1MB (1040STf) - ****FOR CASUAL USER***** that's enough for gaming. The games that have been modded to work on HD, like on the page that Official Ninja quoted a few posts above......

 

http://dbug.kicks-as.../dbug/patch.asp

 

......has many patched games listed to need more than 1MB, but this is not the case when playing the original floppies, or using the fabulous HxC SD card floppy emulator. Besides, if you were to play these off hard disk and then needed the extra RAM, of course the STe is the machine you'd want - for popping in the SIMMS - but then you'd likely find you have a machine with the bad DMA chip, plus the expense of the hard drive, Ultrasatan device, etc. All of this is probably waaaaaay beyond the scope of what a CASUAL experimenter/gamer/collector wants to get into.

 

Those are some cool games you mention, but once again, just a handful. The bulk of the ST gaming experience can be had with a ST/STm/STf/STfm? I could be wrong, but do you really disagree with that statement? If so, perhaps I stand corrected, as I tip my hat to your greater knowledge and experience with these machines. It just seems that a 1040STf goes a long, long way in "bang for the buck" and simplicity.

 

One other quality that I rarely see mentioned...the STe is newer. I'd bet odds

are that most STe's are in better general shape than their older cousins.

I have run across some very, very nice older machines. The trouble is that the STe was so much less-popular (at least in the U.S.) that they're just kind of rare. That means high price. That's a huge component of the point I was making. $100 to $200 for STe - if you even find one listed. If you do, you won't have many to choose from, condition-wise. You'll just have to bid on it if you want it, against others. Meanwhile, there are always a few-to-several STfm (or whatever) listed, and you can be choosy and get a nice one, for cheap!!!

 

 

STe - if you can even find one listed (frequently can not) - never goes for cheap like that.

 

I just think that it's not necessary to send a prospective new **CASUAL CASUAL CASUAL** (not "severe" enthusiasts, like "us") new ST user on a wild goose chase for an EXPENSIVE, ELUSIVE machine, when they can get a dirt-cheap 1040ST and have mostly the same experience. But as I said, I could be wrong.

 

Nice debate, however. I like seeing discussion about these machines.

[+remowilliams]

if you plan to get a hard disk then the 4mb's of RAM are really important. That's why we like to suggest the STE.

 

Exactly. If all someone wants to do is play on actual floppies (or a simulator like HxC) then an ST is fine. If they want to do anything more advanced like use a HD, or HD patched games you need more memory. That means STE, or face an utterly disastrous/impossible memory upgrade situation...

 

The 'new casual guy' may only need one, but it's always worth it to point out the other.

[+DarkLord]

I guess I'll amend what I said a bit here...

 

In no way do I mean to imply that anyone won't have a good time with a 1 meg STfm. Not at all. I'm just saying that if you get the chance, and have a choice though, do yourself a favor and get the STe.

 

As far as casual goes...if they are that that casual about it, why wouldn't they just use an emulator and not even fool with ST hardware at all?

 

Just a thought.

[+wood_jl]

I'll add to the discussion (oh no!!) again shortly, but I hope you guys (darklord, remo williams, and others) think that I am trivial of your expertise. I'm not, and, as I said, it's a matter of opinion, and although I state mine,I clearly could be wrong, don't care if I am (My ego is worthless) and I fully acknowledge my ignorance, but I feel a debate should be EXACTLY THAT and I absolutely concede you raise excellent points. I hope you guys don't hate me, because I was merely expressing an opinion and it could be wrong - just an opinion. As I said, I think it's healthy to even be discussing these much-neglected, excellent machines!!! Take care!

[+DarkLord]

Oh by all means, keep posting and giving us your opinion. This is a free and open forum and its

always good to see different views. Just because someone's view is different doesn't mean its wrong

either.

 

You and I have talked...discussed...before. I always welcome good healthy conversation. Many times

a difference of opinion is nothing more than semantics and splitting hairs.

 

So keep posting my friend!

[jens]

I think that in times in which floppies go crappy hard disks (which tend to go crappy as well at some point in time, but have great replacements just as the SatanDisk) are quite nice a thing.

Many people have problems about exchanging data with their more modern machines, so it's nice to be able to store your files on your older machine and use MSA to shove files to a working floppy or directly play your games from a hard drive.

 

I really second the fact that an STe is a nicer machine for running demoscene stuff which imo is absolutely worth looking at!

 

Another point for an STe would be the advanced TOS. It has at least 1.06 (also called 1.6, not to be confused with 1.62), which has faster disk routines than anything before 1.04 (also called 1.4), the Rainbow TOS. An STf may have anything from 1.00 to 1.04, so chances are that one gets an original (1.00) or Blitter (1.02 / 1.2) TOS. I don't expect to find an original DiskTOS on any machine anymore, but who knows...

 

I also like networked STs, and with a NIC (or nullmodem cable), STing, FTP-Serv and at least two floppies, or maybe that HxC floppy drive emulator, or ideally a hard drive you can shove loads of games onto your machine (two floppies are the worst of those possibilities, just to point that out). Ok, I have networked about everything which sits here, and I know many Atari enthusiasts that did likewise. ATM I'm downloading my personal mirror of the umich.edu archives, which contain quite a number of games and tons of other stuff. Also mirrored some famous ftp sites beforehand. Loads of fodder for our beloved STs.

 

For the Atari ST newcomer these possibilities are nice to know and although I'd suggest to get an STe as well, due to its potential to produce a bigger cake, I see a point in getting a plain 1040 ST first to just taste that cake.

[+wood_jl]

Ok, you guys have convinced me.

 

I just bought another 1040STe off Ebay. As a spare, and also the possibility one (of the two) will have the "good" DMA chip.

 

Foot tastes pretty good. But you have to admit, they're just not listed very often, which is why I snagged the one today, that looks pretty good. The fact that they're somewhat rare could put off a new, prospective enthusiast.

 

I like Remo's point about the originals (ST prior to "e") , relative to memory upgrades: horrendous FAIL. Why couldn't they have made the 520ST upgradable, at least to 1MB, like they did the Amiga 500?

 

I think this means you guys won the argument. 1040STe, it is, then. HA HA HA!

Edited November 12, 2011 by wood_jl

[Christos]

I think stfm's are easily upgradeable to 1mb. 2.5 with a daughterboard is also easy, solderless i mean, but who can find it?