What's the deal with Star Castle 2600?

[iesposta]

I would like to see it done monochrome like Suicide Mission.
Then you could have the star field, giant explosions, audio samples...
Spiceware was working on a bitmap playfield. See Eggventure title screen.
I love Suicide Mission, Meteoroids, oh, and flicker!

[jetset]

Are there 32,768 atariage members? If we all pitched in a dollar, we could have it released for the whole community.

 

I would LOVE to play Star Castle for 2600. Maybe some quiet homebrewer is already working on it. I remember someone picking the programmers brain about info on how it was made. Fortress of Narzod would be rad too.

 

There's no way we should even fathom the idea of paying that kind of price. It's his prerogative to charge what he wants for his product, and ours should be that he can jump off a bridge. It's douche-bag stunts like his that really sully the hobby. Do programmers who write modern games even get this kind of payoff?

[iesposta]

Remove

[iesposta]

Are there 32,768 atariage members? If we all pitched in a dollar, we could have it released for the whole community.

 

I would LOVE to play Star Castle for 2600. Maybe some quiet homebrewer is already working on it. I remember someone picking the programmers brain about info on how it was made. Fortress of Narzod would be rad too.

 

There's no way we should even fathom the idea of paying that kind of price. It's his prerogative to charge what he wants for his product, and ours should be that he can jump off a bridge. It's douche-bag stunts like his that really sully the hobby. Do programmers who write modern games even get this kind of payoff?

 

But it is only $131.08 from 250 people and then everyone can have it. Who wants to start a poll?

Seriously though, I agree with jetset. That's why I'm nudging for it to be remade without an 8K restriction.

[PFL]

I don't think the game looks that great TBH. It might be a technical marvel but it really doesn't suit the hardware that well. I'd rather someone put the same chops to work on a port of Galaga or another classic much more suited to the 2600. The Vectrex version is much cheaper, nicer and ubiquitous... Everyone should own a Vectrex anyway - If I was king I'd make it law!

[roland p]

But it is only $131.08 from 250 people and then everyone can have it. Who wants to start a poll?

Seriously though, I agree with jetset. That's why I'm nudging for it to be remade without an 8K restriction.

Nope, The deal was for only one game. Not ownership of the code or replication rights etc. One game for one rich man.

Oops, I was wrong.

Edited December 17, 2011 by roland p

[VectorGamer]

Are there 32,768 atariage members? If we all pitched in a dollar, we could have it released for the whole community.

 

Not worth it. It would feed his narcissism, and justify his behavior. The amount of ill will he generated here at AtariAge negated his accomplishment.

 

I agree. That would probably set a bad precedent.

 

I'd rather pay a $1 to the person that shoves a Yars' Revenge cart up his exhaust pipe.

[+Random Terrain]

I'd rather pay a $1 to the person that shoves a Yars' Revenge cart up his exhaust pipe.

 

You're assuming he doesn't already enjoy that on the down-low.

[VectorGamer]

I'd rather pay a $1 to the person that shoves a Yars' Revenge cart up his exhaust pipe.

 

You're assuming he doesn't already enjoy that on the down-low.

 

How about if we do CIB sideways?

[iesposta]

I'd rather pay a $1 to the person that shoves a Yars' Revenge cart up his exhaust pipe.

 

You're assuming he doesn't already enjoy that on the down-low.

 

How about if we do CIB sideways?

I said Atari 2600 Meteoroids, not give him hemorrhoids!

[AtariLeaf]

Everyone should own a Vectrex anyway - If I was king I'd make it law!

 

I vote you in as king, now where's my Vectrex?

[potatohead]

I don't get the hostility on this.

 

A good quality VCS title takes a long time. This is all about how time is valued. Some people value the entertainment and the accolades, maybe just the interactions. "Cool game dude, I had fun!" Others want some money for it. If you look at what a current pro costs, the price being asked isn't out of line. Maybe that's the point of it.

 

Look at what people paid for a rare! Well, this one is rare. Of course, that's by Scott's choice, but still. Rare.

 

The idea that somebody is crappy somehow for not just putting stuff out there makes no sense to me. Some people think it's a tease. It is, but not in the bad way often expressed. The author wanted to challenge himself on the VCS. Invested time, and did the cool extras, like the LED lighting. (damn cool, and something we should add to the Melody boards)

 

Then it's show 'n tell.

 

So here's the thing on that. In the pro world, there is a lot of legal and a seriously intense IP culture. In the home brew / hobby world, it's all about learning, fun, code, etc... And in between we have emulators and all manner of things in the grey area. IMHO, more good than bad, but often abused.

 

Given those things, why the fuss? Retro / hobby / homebrew is huge! Lots to do. If you aren't having fun, then you are doing it wrong. The author is a nice guy. He's got his reasons and they are valid and understandable. IMHO, the crap being tossed about on this thing just looks bad.

[+Random Terrain]

Given those things, why the fuss? Retro / hobby / homebrew is huge! Lots to do. If you aren't having fun, then you are doing it wrong. The author is a nice guy. He's got his reasons and they are valid and understandable. IMHO, the crap being tossed about on this thing just looks bad.

 

As far as I know, except for those who have the time and money to attend an Atari nerd convention where he has the game set up for people to try, he's basically saying "I made this cool game, but you'll never be able to play it. Na-na, na-na, boo-boo, stick your head in doo-doo." If that's fun to him, then he isn't a nice guy. That's the opposite of being a nice guy.

 

And most of the expensive rare games I've heard of are also available to play using an emulator or Harmony cartridge. Collectors who have that OCD/hoarding disease don't seem to be bothered by the availability of a ROM. As long as they can hold, sniff, lick, and rub their wieners on the real thing, that's all they care about.

[maiki]

Reminds me again of the Actionauts still has not been released as a download... but obviously that guy said he would do that after the carts sell out and their price is kinda acceptable (less than 100 dollars).

[potatohead]

Well RT, since you've recently finished your game, what do you think about people making copies of it? As the author, you have the right to call the shots on that you know. Did you write it for the challenge of writing it, or did you write it so that you could get the warm fuzzies from others after having played it?

 

That's the difference. And when it came to tech discussion, it was made very clear that other efforts were encouraged and some desire to compare notes and see where and what could be improved on. It's technical. I'm surprised more people don't see that.

 

Oh well, I'm done on this post.

 

Like I said, it looks bad. And there is a great lesson there. There isn't some entitlement to share and share alike. Optional. Sometimes we just won't get to play one, and that's how it is. Rather than get crappy about that, write one! If you want more sharing in the retro scene, bust your ass and give it away! That's what I did with mine, and others did too. Requiring that however isn't cool. That's the part that looks bad.

 

Here's something to think about. Do you think for a moment the up and coming Boulderdash is going to be a freebie? There is a reason for special version of melody cart, and I'll be willing to bet it has a lot to do with First Star and distribution rights and such. I could be completely wrong too. My point is not to bash on anybody, but to highlight reality on these things. Remember the Stella CD project? Have any idea what it took for Glenn to get that all sorted from an IP perspective? There were limits and expectations surrounding that whole effort, and stuff had to be paid for too.

 

Rather than bitch about what you can't have, you all really should be damn happy for all that you DO have, because a few man-months of legal and a pissed off company or two could run this scene into the ground solid, and where's the fun in that?

 

This entire hobby exists slightly under the radar and at the pleasure of the rights holders and never forget that. Most of the time nobody seems to care about these things, but that's not really the default expectation. If it's made some kind of issue? Count on the result being very unpleasant for everybody. That is another big part of what looks bad. Why? Because it depends on the level of attention. First Star happens to value their properties enough to warrant some consideration, which Andrew Davie gave them. Others could start doing that, with predictable results. Some of us here are active, in the industry and that comes with some expectations, does it not? Damn right it does. Ask around. I have.

 

So there you go. On a mere whim this all could suck huge. Know that.

Edited December 18, 2011 by potatohead

[+Andrew Davie]

Do you think for a moment the up and coming Boulderdash is going to be a freebie? There is a reason for special version of melody cart, and I'll be willing to bet it has a lot to do with First Star and distribution rights and such. I could be completely wrong too.

 

On this issue (reason for choosing Melody), you're completely wrong The extra protection afforded by the Melody cart is a happy coincidence. Simple fact is that the Melody is the only in-production cartridge currently supporting the Boulder Dash bank-switching format, and it was chosen for that reason alone. There was no requirement from FSS for extra protection.

 

First Star happens to value their properties enough to warrant some consideration, which Andrew Davie gave them.

 

And in the end, everyone wins. Thomas and I can hold our heads up proudly that this was done properly. Yes, it took a long time with lots of negotiation and concessions. But I don't regret that for an instant. I guess that use of copyrighted material, even if the copyright holder is difficult to determine, is at best a grey area. At worst, it's a moral sink -- particularly if you're looking to earn a huge profit (or any profit, really) from something that effectively someone else owns. In short, whether you agree or disagree, the law is that copyright owners have certain rights as to the reproduction of their work. I would hope that should this cart sell for $32K (in which case I'll leave the hobby out of disgust), that the copyright owner will find out and say something like "hey, I'll have that, thanks!" through a bunch of amiable lawyers.

 

Doing things "the right way" -- partciularly in the case where there are active intellectual properties still protected by their owners -- is just the right thing to do. As far as SC goes, I think this is just screwing all of us.

Cheers

A

[potatohead]

Thanks for clearing it up. Happy to be wrong on that, and really was aiming for a different point anyway. Honestly, that you got it done is great! No worries past that, and no harm intended. And hat tip to FSS for not requiring that. Excellent.

[+Random Terrain]

Well RT, since you've recently finished your game, what do you think about people making copies of it?

 

I have this note below the download link:

 

http://www.atariage....eaweed-assault/

Note: You have permission to use this program with emulators and on a real Atari using a Harmony cartridge or similar device. Please do not include any version of this program in collections and please don't put it on cartridge with or without the intention of selling it. (Don't be a hoser.)

 

 

Thanks to CPUWIZ (and possibly Albert some time in 2012), people can buy an official cartridge if they want one, or they can play it for free using an emulator a Harmony cart. The game is available for people to play. That's what games are made for.

 

 

Related quotes:

 

http://www.randomter...motivation.html

Even though I enjoyed the challenge of programming, ultimately the motivation was the fans, the gamers themselves. I kept asking myself, "Is that guy enjoying the game?" In those early days we got fan mail all the time.

Bob Whitehead (adapted)

 

 

You have to measure your success by the way your audience responds to your games. No matter how small that audience is, it's yours. Your game is part of the lives and the memories of those people in a way that WordPerfect or Lotus 1-2-3 or Windows can never be.

Orson Scott Card

Compute Magazine, October 1992

 

 

I had no special training at all; I am completely self taught. I don't fit the mold of a visual arts designer or a graphic designer. I just had a strong concept about what a game designer is. Someone who designs projects to make people happy. That's a game designer's purpose.

Toru Iwatani

From the book Programmers at Work by Susan Lammers

 

 

To me games have an extremely great and still unrealized potential to influence man. I want to bring joy and excitement to people's lives in my games, while at the same time communicate aspects of this journey of life we are all going through. Games have a larger potential for this than linear movies or any other form of media.

Philip Price from a Halcyon Days interview

 

 

A long, long time ago . . . I can still remember how that music used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance that I could make those people dance and maybe they'd be happy for a while.

Part of the lyrics from the song American Pie by Don McLean

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you write it for the challenge of writing it, or did you write it so that you could get the warm fuzzies from others after having played it?

 

Too many games are made for the challenge of it, without seeming to care that much about players. Although players are important, their reactions should only be taken as feedback you can use to make better games. Player comments shouldn't feed your ego or damage your self-esteem. If your job is to help make players happy, it's kind of hard to do that if nobody can play your game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said, it looks bad. And there is a great lesson there. There isn't some entitlement to share and share alike. Optional. Sometimes we just won't get to play one, and that's how it is. Rather than get crappy about that, write one! If you want more sharing in the retro scene, bust your ass and give it away! That's what I did with mine, and others did too. Requiring that however isn't cool. That's the part that looks bad.

 

It's nice when a ROM is shared, but you seem to be missing what people are irritated about. They aren't complaining because the game isn't free. They are complaining because the guy doesn't want to sell it to players who love the Atari 2600. He only wants to sell it to some insane rich person that doesn't exist. When this imaginary rich person buys the game from him, the imaginary rich person will be free to distribute the game or keep it to himself. In other words, nobody will get to play the game unless the programer shows up at Atari nerd conventions so he can wave the game in people's faces and feed his ego like one of those rich douche bags who get a "look what I have and you don't" boner while he shows off his rare sports car or the polished bones of a human that he hunted and killed on one of those secret island vacations where rich people hunt the most dangerous game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rather than bitch about what you can't have, you all really should be damn happy for all that you DO have, because a few man-months of legal and a pissed off company or two could run this scene into the ground solid, and where's the fun in that?

 

This entire hobby exists slightly under the radar and at the pleasure of the rights holders and never forget that. Most of the time nobody seems to care about these things, but that's not really the default expectation. If it's made some kind of issue? Count on the result being very unpleasant for everybody. That is another big part of what looks bad. Why? Because it depends on the level of attention. First Star happens to value their properties enough to warrant some consideration, which Andrew Davie gave them. Others could start doing that, with predictable results. Some of us here are active, in the industry and that comes with some expectations, does it not? Damn right it does. Ask around. I have.

 

So there you go. On a mere whim this all could suck huge. Know that.

 

We've always known this and it has nothing to do with some guy making a game that no one can play. He made a big deal about it, then basically told everyone to go screw themselves.

 

Rather than bitching about anything you don't like or agree with, why don't you stop doing or thinking about anything frivolous, move to Africa and do nothing but feed the poor? If we are going to have interests beyond survival, people have a right to share their opinions on whatever subject they want. In this case, the subject is a guy who stepped into the Atari 2600 spotlight, whipped out his willy and pissed all over the audience.

[Hydro Thunder]

And, I don't have a need to be extremely, pointlessly mean to anyone here and this is certainly going to sound like it...

But from reading all of the main thread on Star Castle, and the amount of praise thrown the guy's way for his previous works (which were ports of arcade games to the Lynx, if I understood correctly), and the hunger and greed with which he ate up the praise, I've got to say....

 

I respect the craft of porting games, but he's got nothing on those who create original games. _Nothing_. Seaweed Assault? Fifty gazillion times better than this port of Star Castle. As are a whole ton of the games available right now in the Homebrew section of the AtariAge store. Sure, he did something that HSW _said_ couldn't be done _in the day_, before he went on to make the amazing Yar's Revenge. But maybe he partially said that because he wanted to make something new, on some level, maybe he had ideas for Yar's. In any case, what he did with Yar's Revenge was way beyond what this guy thinks he's done with Star Castle, and he doesn't get it. At All. He truly thinks he's bested Howard Scott Warshaw, and it's so disgustingly asinine, I don't know if I'd pay $1 for his Star Castle port with LED lights on the cart etc, the more I think on it.

 

So please, cut the chatter about raising the intensely absurd amount of $ for this guy's port of Star Castle. If he ever decides to sell it straight up like any other homebrew author would do, fine. But as it is, this self-declared king of all programming deserves exactly the amount of $ he's getting for his work currently. And even less does he deserve any praise for porting Road Blasters to the Lynx, or whatever supposed masterpieces he thinks he's achieved.

[Keatah]

Personally, for me, I think a homebrew author can charge up to around $100 before I get pissed and stop and rethink the price.

[PFL]

Everyone should own a Vectrex anyway - If I was king I'd make it law!

 

I vote you in as king, now where's my Vectrex?

 

It's in the post! Now, I'll be around after Christmas to pick up my taxes - since it's the first year I'll only take 10% of annual income. Thanks, Your Royal Vecrtexness.

 

 

 

To labour this topic a little further; HSW never said it couldn't be done. He actually said it couldn't be done well - that it would really bad... who's to say that this new version of Star Castle isn't bad? Who's actually played it to verify it's fun and playability?? Just my tuppence worth.

[Zach]

Maybe if I ever find the time to master every homebrew that actually has been released, then I might care about this version of Star Castle.

[cd-w]

Save your money - it turns out not to be very difficult to write a basic star castle kernel.

 

Chris

 

EDIT: Note that it is not currently playable in any way, but if there is enough demand I may take it further.

[Foxsolo2000]

You know a simple way to stop hoarding and the constant bitching that goes on from avid players denied the ability to play these hidden gems, Albert could create a play zone like Rom has on Atarimania where you can play the game online but not be able to download it. That way the rom can be played and assessed whilst remaining in private hands and so being unable to being illegally copied and sold on. Tempest could do it on his site as he is well trusted and has had access to many hoarded treasures which only himself has played so he is reliable and safe. Its just an idea but it seems the best (and only) way to solve the age old argument and keep everyone satisfied

[VectorGamer]

but if there is enough demand I may take it further.

 

I demand you take it further!!!