What's the appeal of bB programming?

[ComputerSpaceFan]

Can I ask why a lot of home brewers are doing "bB versions" of games? The reason I ask is from what I can tell, this bB kernel won't run on a FlashBack 2 modded to play cartridges and if that's true it means I can't play them. (I got rid of my actual 2600 decades ago but I have a FB2 with cart mod).

 

When it was only a few games like Seaweed Assault and Frantic I was able to live with it, but do home brewers prefer to use this kernel and will we be seeing more and more games made this way? If so, us FB2 folks won't be able to enjoy it so think of us and take pity.

[toiletunes]

If I understood assembly, I would use it instead of basic. I don't.

 

If I ever manage to program anything playable, you have my permission to modify the code so it will work on your system.

[+save2600]

You'll get no pity from anyone here if a Flashback unit is your only/main means of playing Atari!

 

And no, bB programming ain't going away anytime soon.

[Cebus Capucinis]

bB games will only continue to grow and grow as the program gets better and better. With DPC+ and other innovations, it's starting to look even better than some assembly code out there! I think with continued refinement of the program it will become more of a de facto standard in homebrew programming and programs will just keep getting better, better, and better!

[Thomas Jentzsch]

There are two types of homebrewers, those who use Assembler and those who use bB.

 

Many people are using bB because it is much easier to understand and use than doing everything in pure Assembler. So it is very likely that there will be more homebrews done by using bB than by using Assembler.

[+Gemintronic]

bB is newbie friendly. AtariAge is extremely newbie friendly. The developer of Batari BASIC actively debugs and enhances his project. That's EXACTLY what makes it a great choice.

[SlowCoder]

Many people are using bB because it is much easier to understand and use than doing everything in pure Assembler. So it is very likely that there will be more homebrews done by using bB than by using Assembler.

This is me. I'm familiar with BASIC, so Bb structure came easily. I've never done assembly, but maybe some day.

[Impaler_26]

Why don't you buy an original 2600 for playing homebrews? You can get one for just a few bucks so why stick to a modded FB2 ?

Edited December 20, 2011 by Impaler_26

[Tinman]

I remember way back when, when I used to write code for the Atari 800 and also the Commodore 64. Although it was possible to write better programs (and much faster ones) in assembly, doing so was far more difficult than using BASIC, so I and many others used BASIC. I never did really get the hang of assembly.

[trent]

I had a look at bB and decided to do my tinkering in assembly. I think I'd warm up to to bB a bit more if came with source code.

[ComputerSpaceFan]

Why don't you buy an original 2600 for playing homebrews? You can get one for just a few bucks so why stick to a modded FB2 ?

 

Well a few reasons.

 

First of all, 35 year old components have a risk of dying, whereas the FB2 is modern tech.

 

Secondly, although I have seen some original consoles dirt cheap in flea markets, my original console back in the day was a heavy sixer and my fondness for it was such that I would only get a heavy sixer, nothing else. From what I gather, they are harder to find.

 

Thirdly, used 2600's are generally missing power supplies and RF modulators, tricky things to locate nowadays.

 

Finally, my wife's SNES is currently hooked up to the RF connection on the back on the CRT TV I use for retro gaming, it is a heck of a lot more convenient to use the composite connections that came with the FB2 in comparison.

 

I guess I'll just have to live with it then.

[Rex Dart]

You'll only get a heavy sixer, nothing else... yet you've got precisely "else".

Used 2600 tend to be missing power supplies? Where are you looking?

And you ought to hook up the SNES with composite or s-video anyways.

 

Oh well.

[+RevEng]

There are two types of homebrewers, those who use Assembler and those who use bB.

 

And I'm both types.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but it's worth mentioning that bB is modular and supports using as much or as little assembly code as you like. Personally, I like the challenge and results from writing custom kernels, but I prefer to use a higher level language for the rest of the work to speed up the development time.

 

 

...The reason I ask is from what I can tell, this bB kernel won't run on a FlashBack 2 modded to play cartridges and if that's true it means I can't play them. (I got rid of my actual 2600 decades ago but I have a FB2 with cart mod).

 

The root of the problem is your emulator/simulator is buggy, not that some homebrews are written in bB. Assembly games that use sara ram or certain illegal opcodes won't run on your FB2 either.

 

Developers shouldn't compromise on using certain features, just because an emulator exists that can't use them.

 

It's unfortunate that you have limitations that keep you from using a real 2600, but having one is the best way to enjoy 2600 homebrew.

[+save2600]

Wait a sec... Seaweed Assault, Brkanoid, Let it Snow (not) and Bell Hopper ALL work on my modded FB2. In fact, every homebrew I've ever tossed its way works. What games seemingly don't?

 

...and the comment about modern hardware lasting longer is bunk. I guar_an_tee people will be playing their 70's and 80's Atari consoles loooong after this cheap Chinese crap turns to dust.

Edited December 20, 2011 by save2600

[+RevEng]

Wait a sec... Seaweed Assault, Brkanoid, Let it Snow (not) and Bell Hopper ALL work on my modded FB2. In fact, every homebrew I've ever tossed its way works. What games seemingly don't?

 

...and the comment about modern hardware lasting longer is bunk. I guar_an_tee people will be playing their 70's and 80's Atari consoles loooong after this cheap Chinese crap turns to dust.

 

Totally agreed on the longevity.

 

What revision of FB2 are you using? Maybe a later rev has fixed the issue with SC ram and the illegal opcodes.

[+save2600]

What revision of FB2 are you using? Maybe a later rev has fixed the issue with SC ram and the illegal opcodes.

DOH! It's the revision that has a Pico board (where you utilize original chips) inside the case.

[ComputerSpaceFan]

Wait a sec... Seaweed Assault, Brkanoid, Let it Snow (not) and Bell Hopper ALL work on my modded FB2. In fact, every homebrew I've ever tossed its way works. What games seemingly don't?

 

Bell Hopper and Let It Snow (not) work fine but Seaweed Assault and Frantic just roll the screen, I haven't heard of Brkanoid though, is that in the Homebrew section? I'd be interested in trying that one.

Maybe Seaweed Assult doesn't like my FB2 combined with a Harmony cart (which is what I use).

 

I guess what I was originally asking with this thread was does a giant brick wall exist between bB homebrews and assembler homebrews in which case I'll opt out rather than chase down a heavy sixer. Since the answer is yes an impenetrable divide exists and there's no way to change the programming to include us FB2 users, at least now I have my answer.

 

Thanks to all who answered.

Edited December 20, 2011 by ComputerSpaceFan

[Andrew Davie]

I guess what I was originally asking with this thread was does a giant brick wall exist between bB homebrews and assembler homebrews in which case I'll opt out rather than chase down a heavy sixer. Since the answer is yes an impenetrable divide exists and there's no way to change the programming to include us FB2 users, at least now I have my answer.

 

 

This bugs me. The whole notion of "changing programming" to include FB2 users.

Should we also change our programming so our games run on that other imperfect '2600 emulation (the multiple computer thing)?

IMHO it's the FB2 which should be fixed so that it's truly compatible, not the other way around.

Cheers

A

[+Propane13]

I haven't heard of Brkanoid though, is that in the Homebrew section? I'd be interested in trying that one.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/191490-breakanoid-arcade-action-fun-for-the-atari-2600-preorder-thread/

[+Random Terrain]

What's the appeal of bB programming?

 

I'm not smart enough to make games using only assembly language, so I use batari Basic with Visual batari Basic. I need all of the tools and special kernels I can get my hands on.

[+thegoldenband]

Had to make a small correction to Thomas's post:

 

There are two 10 types of homebrewers, those who use Assembler and those who use bB.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I had a look at bB and decided to do my tinkering in assembly. I think I'd warm up to to bB a bit more if came with source code.

Well, depending on what you mean by "source code," it sort of does. That is, the include files are there for you to inspect and decipher the assembly code.

 

The source code for the *compiler* is another matter-- the source code for the earlier versions of bB was available, but I'm not sure if Fred has posted the source code for the later versions.

[ls650]

First of all, 35 year old components have a risk of dying, whereas the FB2 is modern tech.

I trust my Sunnyvale heavy 6-er to last a lot longer than my FB2. I would be very surprised if my FB2 is still functional in 2045.

[TwentySixHundred]

Why not just use an emulator? Stella is fairly accurate now and is only getting better i have a 2600 console but use emulator.

You can always use an old PC with Svideo out and pug it straight to the CRT.

Yeah its real fun to play on original hardware but i say collect it in mint condition and play emulator.

I find PC is more reliable as you can keep backing it up if your hard drive fails not to mention emulation looks better on LCD/LED TV's.

 

My next project is going to be an emulator box or Arcade machine but not sure what to build first

[SeaGtGruff]

Getting back to the question in the topic's title, I think the appeal of bB programming is that it makes it easier and quicker to produce a working ROM. I probably write more "test" programs than anything else, and I can create a test program with bB in a matter of minutes, whereas a similar program would take much longer to do in assembly. I do also code in assembly, but sometimes I'll code a test using in-line assembly in a bB program rather than creating a pure assembly program where I have to manually add in all the include lines, ORG lines, and so on. You could say I'm taking the lazy way out in that respect, but when you're just writing a quick test program and the results will be the same regardless of whether you do it in pure assembly or as in-line assembly in a bB program, why not take the faster and more convenient approach?

 

Aside from the speed and convenience, what I like about batari Basic is that it's so flexible, since you can create your own custom include files, or mix in-line assembly code with lines of bB code, etc. So you have the convenience of high-level bB coding without having to give up the power of low-level assembly coding!