Whats new in TI-99/4A world?

[marc.hull]

OK guys, looks like some people are upset so I've pulled the link, I thought I was preserving TI99/4A software history in emulated form so I have to ask is there really any commercial interest in emulated TI99 software? Apologies I offended anyone

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........Apparenly there is some interest in the software, otherwise you wouldn't have built a big project around it huh ??? So what did you think you were doing..........Preserving history ??

 

The Gamebase projects are only ever meant as a way of preserving gaming history, the only people interested in them are a very limited audience of those that once owned the original systems and want a taste of the past in emulated form, the project did not make me a single penny of profit or contribution as it was purely done for preservation, furthermore as I have already stated links on this site have now been pulled due to your disatisfaction.

 

 

You are soooooo full of shit OX....... Your intentions were what ???

[marc.hull]

OK guys, looks like some people are upset so I've pulled the link, I thought I was preserving TI99/4A software history in emulated form so I have to ask is there really any commercial interest in emulated TI99 software? Apologies I offended anyone

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........Apparenly there is some interest in the software, otherwise you wouldn't have built a big project around it huh ??? So what did you think you were doing..........Preserving history ??

 

The Gamebase projects are only ever meant as a way of preserving gaming history, the only people interested in them are a very limited audience of those that once owned the original systems and want a taste of the past in emulated form, the project did not make me a single penny of profit or contribution as it was purely done for preservation, furthermore as I have already stated links on this site have now been pulled due to your disatisfaction.

 

How about you study a bit and come up with your own contribution to the cause....... Too much effort ??? Easier to reap growing wheat than plant your own ???

[pjduplooy]

OK guys.

 

As the OP of this post I like some heated conversation about a subject loved by all (the TI). But this has turned into a bit of a flamewar.

 

Just my 2c. As I said I am from South Africa. The problem with that is that there is little or no access to actual TI hardware and/or software down here. The only way of getting info about the TI is on communities like this. In order for me to relive my childhood memories I have to rely on emulation. The cost of getting hardware and software (the exchange rate!!) is prohibitive. I am still looking at getting PC99 and the Cyc DVD. The software is not a problem, but the DVD might get lost in the post (The postal service here is not very reliable, and that is an understatement).

 

So I am very grateful to people that does things like the TI Gamebase. I fully understand that most of the roms and other software are not PD, and that TI is still the copyright holder, but hey, how am I supposed to relive my love for the TI without such contributions?

 

Regards

 

Pieter

[+retroclouds]

I think you should set up a poll, if the majority is for it, then remove the gamebase. If not then just keep it available.

 

[sometimes99er]

How about you study a bit and come up with your own contribution to the cause....... Too much effort ??? Easier to reap growing wheat than plant your own ???

 

Easier to reap growing wheat than plant your own ??? - Hehehe, how about you making your own music instead of ripping and moving loads of professional music with some really bad excuse.

[sometimes99er]

I think you should set up a poll, if the majority is for it, then remove the gamebase. If not then just keep it available.

 

Come to think of it, it's a nice idea. Let's also have polls about your Pitfall and Hull's music collection. And why not one about me, thief or not. Don't know if it settles it once and for all, but a nice thought.

 

Edited January 9, 2012 by sometimes99er

[sometimes99er]

Sure, you can add whatever you like - if you run into any problems just let me know. I plan to start on V2.0 sometime in the future as I still have hundreds of games to add to it.

 

OX....

 

There seems to be a lot of material in your gamebase that isn't PD stuff. How did you get permission to include them in your distro ?

 

yes, i agree with Mark Hull.

 

Nice to have someone agree with Hull.

 

You're not exactly very clear about a good deal of the stuff you have for download on your own site. Do you have permission, does it say PD or what ?

[sometimes99er]

Edited January 9, 2012 by sometimes99er

[jacquesg]

 

Just my 2c. As I said I am from South Africa. The problem with that is that there is little or no access to actual TI hardware and/or software down here. The only way of getting info about the TI is on communities like this. In order for me to relive my childhood memories I have to rely on emulation. The cost of getting hardware and software (the exchange rate!!) is prohibitive. I am still looking at getting PC99 and the Cyc DVD. The software is not a problem, but the DVD might get lost in the post (The postal service here is not very reliable, and that is an understatement).

 

 

Pieter,

 

I believe that Mike Wright is either originally from South Africa or lived there for a while. I am sure that if you contact him he would be able to offer some solution to overcome the postal problem in getting PC99 and The Cyc to you.

[pjduplooy]

jacquesg

 

Thanx for the info.

 

I was in contact with Mike about two years ago, and he was extremely helpful!! Although I didnt buy PC99 and the Cyc then, he was willing to let the money transfer go through paypal.

 

He mentioned that he was in South Africa for a while, but I never asked him if it was for holiday or something else.

 

Pieter

[ti99iuc]

Sure, you can add whatever you like - if you run into any problems just let me know. I plan to start on V2.0 sometime in the future as I still have hundreds of games to add to it.

 

OX....

 

There seems to be a lot of material in your gamebase that isn't PD stuff. How did you get permission to include them in your distro ?

 

yes, i agree with Mark Hull.

 

Nice to have someone agree with Hull.

 

You're not exactly very clear about a good deal of the stuff you have for download on your own site. Do you have permission, does it say PD or what ?

 

Well, maybe it was not clear in what I agree with Mark Hull. :-)

First of all On my site there is all Italian PD Software and not New software is currently for sale such as: Pitfall!

 

 

but for other software I have online actually on my site, I sent an email to the authors, where I found them, and gave their consent to post them on mine site, so, for the Italian User Club.

 

for this reason, I had given permission to OX to download from my site and insert them into its database, but on one condition: that was to be placed in the context of information gamebase "Downloaded from www.ti99iuc.it" But this is not happened ...

and it's not correct, to me, and even for authors who have given their consent directly to me, not to OX.

 

However..... Patience .... I hope that OX will correct this thing in the future version two of the GameBase, and remove the copyrighted software, if someone request it ... in my future website for example, many titles will be listed with their descriptions and screenshots, but will not be downloadable, until I will be given the award from the original authors , where i will found....

 

For Pitfall! among other things, I saw that there is already a floppy disk version downlodable for free from other ti99 known (like GameShelf) so i think that for Retroclouds it's not a problem... I think that maybe I'm making too much problem myself and Maybe we not need so many problems.

Also in whtech there is a lot of software downlodable for free.... and not only software...

how OX Wrote, the important is to create a complete database software to not lose memories or other, and i am also agree with this ...

 

but i think that we must do everything needed to be done, but always respecting the demands of others people.

 

 

and more, Dear SomeTimes99er , there are a lot of your magnific works that i would want to put on my future new site for catalog, assembler demo included ... i hope you will give me your permission

 

Bye

Edited January 8, 2012 by ti99userclub

[jchase1970]

Wow, it's the same old issues that have come up so many times in the TI's history. A few of my things are in the GB and I was never asked for permission, Permission is assumed as I have posted them to this site or other sites. It is up to me to author of said material to send a Cease and Decease Notice to indicate my intent that they not be included.

 

Roms are always iffy to say the least, Atari, Nintendo, and Sega use to actively fight to remove work from the ROM sites on the internet but they don't anymore. The only stuff actively protected are newer works that are still generating income. Now that nowhere means that someone can put all of the old NES ROM on a disk and sell that disk. Cause at that point you are generating income from intellectual property and the owners of said property are due their share and with out an agreed upon arrangement with the owns you have no contract for what you are doing.

 

As far as compiling stuff that is already on the web and putting it in one location to make it easier to get to, as long as no profit is coming from it, there is no problem cause said creator or owners of said work have not actively tried to remove the property from the web. As long as GB includes a contact for the right owners to contact the creator of GB and have the stuff removed if contested then there is no problem.

 

I would be totally against this if he had made GB and said here it is, 50GB of TI stuff, If you want it send me $XX for it. But he didn't. I am sure as long as he removes any work when contacted there will be no problem. It has been, and still is, up to the owners of intellectual property to protect it. If no one comes forward to do that it can be considered abandonware. Again it is no smart to try and make money from abandonware cause any onwer that sees money being made from their work can sue for it and will when as long as that work is still under the copywrite.

 

I'm sure some will disagree and that is fine, But I'm pretty sure everything I said is correct. Only because, as I can tell, he collected stuff already available on the web and compiled it for free and he has contact info available so people can contact him and contest it if they so choose.

[ti99iuc]

I think you should set up a poll, if the majority is for it, then remove the gamebase. If not then just keep it available.

 

i do not think that bynow,actually, the gamebase can be removed from the WWW... and anyway ... why ?

 

Perhaps I missed something, and i wonder myself....

 

- Who is damaged by the existence of gamebase? and why ?

- Why no one has ever said anything about gamebase before now?

the Texas Instruments actually gain still on TI-99 software or Paper or other ?

the Texas Instruments is officially against gamebase ?

 

i believe that if someone have copyright on a TI99 product can officially express their motivations and request a modification to what is online, without problems...

at today, (like most of you already know) i build an online database for ti99, not only by games but with documents in all languages, programs and most other...

I'm spending a lot of MY money to do this, I'm buying a lot of TI-99's material and over the money I spend too much of my time...

i will put for free all the material on my site and that's just for sake of TI-99/4A ! ...not for money!

I know ... it's only my sacrifice... but I do it with passion ... for this i could named like criminal?

 

 

 

- Some People Gains on TI-99's Software ? ...if yes... WHY ?

TI99 is a very nice machine but it remain, bynow, a computer for hobbyist and amateur

TI99 is a computer of over 30yo !

and why i must pay a lot of money for Cyc DVD ? part of that dvd price is for a Texas Instruments Tax ?

 

 

I Paid $179 for the SID player Card from Mark Hull... have the SID into the ti99 is always been a my dream... and now i realized it ... thankyou Marc Hull.

I realized PitFall! Manual for the first Batch Cartridges, but i never earned on the sale.... i resold 5 copy of this manual at the same price i spent for printing it... someone i gift it to some people that helped me...

 

for me TI-99, today is for friends... and all i do is for free... and if i do something for free is a nice thing for all the TI-99 Community... i wrong ?

 

:-)

Edited January 8, 2012 by ti99userclub

[marc.hull]

Here is the situation as far as I see it OX.

 

#1) I never told anybody to pull anything. My worse than strong words were due to that load mouthed Karsen getting under my skin. I apologize for what I said to you in haste and that I never got to get this message out.

 

#2) My original peeve was that you took my works and included them without permission. I'm sure you got the OK from Mike to include his EMU in your package as well as a green light from the MESS people. The focus of the whole project (games) should merit the same don't you think ?

 

My history makes me a bit gun shy about people copying and disiminating my work without permission. And the fact that you have only been involved here for about a year (about the same length of your gamebase project) makes it APPEAR that your motives may lay somewhere else than preservation of TI stuff. I may be off base here but that is the appearance to me.

 

At any rate.... things got carried away last night and I am sorry for my part of it.

 

Hull

[Tursi]

As far as compiling stuff that is already on the web and putting it in one location to make it easier to get to, as long as no profit is coming from it, there is no problem cause said creator or owners of said work have not actively tried to remove the property from the web.

 

Ignoring the rest of the discussion, this statement is untrue. Under US Copyright law only the creator of the work has the right to determine distribution. If the owner posts their work to a public site, then they may have granted that site permission, but this does not grant any other user or site permission to redistribute the work.

 

This very common assertion is a confusion with TRADEMARK law. Trademarks MUST be actively used and protected, or they are lost. A trademark is a recognizable name, character, or symbol associated with a business and/or product. COPYRIGHT protects the product, TRADEMARK protects the name. Copyright is automatically asserted and has to be EXPLICITLY released (or wait 120 years for automatic, which doesn't apply to any computer software yet). Trademark has to be explicitly asserted, actively used, and defended to remain valid.

 

Other countries may vary.

 

The US Copyright code is very easy to read, anyone interested should skip all the sites and people that try to interpret it for you (including me) and read the actual code: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

 

102 is the simple definition, 103 covers compilations, 106 describes the exclusive rights of the copyright holder, 107 describes fair use. For the casual reader, that will give a general background.

[OX.]

Here is the situation as far as I see it OX.

 

#1) I never told anybody to pull anything. My worse than strong words were due to that load mouthed Karsen getting under my skin. I apologize for what I said to you in haste and that I never got to get this message out.

 

#2) My original peeve was that you took my works and included them without permission. I'm sure you got the OK from Mike to include his EMU in your package as well as a green light from the MESS people. The focus of the whole project (games) should merit the same don't you think ?

 

My history makes me a bit gun shy about people copying and disiminating my work without permission. And the fact that you have only been involved here for about a year (about the same length of your gamebase project) makes it APPEAR that your motives may lay somewhere else than preservation of TI stuff. I may be off base here but that is the appearance to me.

 

At any rate.... things got carried away last night and I am sorry for my part of it.

 

Hull

 

Apology accepted Marc, I apologise for the lack of credits and permission in the release (got carried away with the xmas release).

It's true I'm pretty recent on here and pretty much only came about because I had played with the idea of doing a gamebase for a long time as a way of preserving a peice of gaming history, I was suprised when no one had attempted a TI99 gamebase before as quite a lot of the main systems from the 80's and 90's had already been done (C64, Atari 800 etc.) it was only until started getting into TI99 that found out why it had'nt been attempted before - at the time the only viable emulator for the task was MESS, not an ideal choice for running from a front end but works non the less, the along came Mike with disk support for Classic99 (and countless other requests I made that Mike implemented) and suddenly there was a more viable option. The other thing was the TI's different loading systems, meaning you can't just "throw" an image file at an emulator and just load it along with other things I picked up like loading basic progs that used every last inch of memory, mini mem progs etc. these were all things I had to create loading systems for by creating the correct .ini file for the emulator (take a look at the GEMUS scripts for Classic99 and MESS).

After a year of trawling through a lot of software I had never seen before I've got quite attached to the system and the knowledge that you guys have got on here I believe is the cream of the TI world, a small community but one that certainly does'nt deserve to fizzle out over time, some things that struck me as I trawled the net for TI99 info is the average age of a TI user is quite old, guys 40+, 50's, 60's and even 70's (I'm just a nipper of 43) and was taken aback at the amount of TI users and programmers from various user groups and software houses that are not with us anymore which made the project that bit more important.

 

Anyway, enough of the project history, I suppose I had better ask is it ok to keep the entries for you work in the Gamebase?

 

the entries that are your work Marc are :-

 

.Lunar Rescue

.Mad Marvins Great Escape (Preview)

.Never-Lander

.Sidplay 99

.Space Trap

 

If it's ok to keep them in I could add entries in the game info section like :-

 

Eg, "sidplay-99" -

 

"Only works with sid-enabled versions of Classic99.

 

For true playback a sid card can be purchased from Marc's website for use with original TI99/4a Hardware.

 

Regards to Marc Hull, check out the website for latest developments - http://www.dsapsc.com".

 

 

Also a note to Cyrus - I need to get on your sites download section and do something similar to above with your entries accredited to your website.

 

I hope people enjoy Gamebase TI99, it was a long time in the making for me and .mad. and there's still a pile of stuff to get through for Version 2, these things are a labour of love and neither of us make any money out of it.

 

OX.

[sometimes99er]

Wow, it's the same old issues that have come up so many times in the TI's history. A few of my things are in the GB and I was never asked for permission, Permission is assumed as I have posted them to this site or other sites. It is up to me to author of said material to send a Cease and Decease Notice to indicate my intent that they not be included.

 

So let me get this right.

 

I can copy what I want, alter it as I please, say I credited original author somewhere and distribute, and even with some my property notice if I find fit. Then when some original author discovers it, and sends this "cease and decease note", then I just remove it.

 

I guess I'll never understand people getting upset about copyrights when they're breaking them big time themselves. These out of proportion double standards just made me sick. I guess it's something like, you're only a thief if you get caught.

 

Edited January 11, 2012 by sometimes99er

[ti99iuc]

Sorry... this thing is not clear for me...

 

why i should be a thief ? but... thief of what ?

 

I intend to be a thief who steals anything that is not his, but treats it as if it were.

 

excuse me sometimes... just for understanding it, becouse i will do Database on line... so i think that it could be similar at the OX's Problems...

 

well... if i put online a program where i can't found the original owner, or the original owner do not answer at mine emails and the program is an old program of 30 years old....

 

so i take that program, put it on my site (AS IS, with the name of the original programmer and all i do not change anything of the original program.... )... i could be a thief ?

 

For Example, Ernie could be a thief becouse have online the books ? (http://pergrem.com/tibooks/)

 

i would want just understand good this point.

 

Thankyou.

Edited January 8, 2012 by ti99userclub

[sometimes99er]

As far as compiling stuff that is already on the web and putting it in one location to make it easier to get to, as long as no profit is coming from it, there is no problem cause said creator or owners of said work have not actively tried to remove the property from the web.

 

Ignoring the rest of the discussion, this statement is untrue. Under US Copyright law only the creator of the work has the right to determine distribution. If the owner posts their work to a public site, then they may have granted that site permission, but this does not grant any other user or site permission to redistribute the work.

 

This very common assertion is a confusion with TRADEMARK law. Trademarks MUST be actively used and protected, or they are lost. A trademark is a recognizable name, character, or symbol associated with a business and/or product. COPYRIGHT protects the product, TRADEMARK protects the name. Copyright is automatically asserted and has to be EXPLICITLY released (or wait 120 years for automatic, which doesn't apply to any computer software yet). Trademark has to be explicitly asserted, actively used, and defended to remain valid.

 

Other countries may vary.

 

The US Copyright code is very easy to read, anyone interested should skip all the sites and people that try to interpret it for you (including me) and read the actual code: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

 

102 is the simple definition, 103 covers compilations, 106 describes the exclusive rights of the copyright holder, 107 describes fair use. For the casual reader, that will give a general background.

 

Okay, so distribution of music, that does not have copyrights explicitly released or is 120 years old, is what ? Wrong ?

[sometimes99er]

so i take that program, put it on my site (AS IS, with the name of the original programmer and all i do not change anything of the original program.... )... i could be a thief ?

 

For Example, Ernie could be a thief becouse have online the books ?

 

I'm no expert or lawyer.

 

I guess you're technically only a thief, if you pleaded guilty or have been convicted in a court of law. Though later evidence may then prove otherwise. I guess you have not pleaded guilty or been convicted, and nor have I, yet a handful of people have called me a thief - for reproducing a single screenshot.

[+InsaneMultitasker]

Odd or perhaps ironic that a thread titled "What's new in the TI-99/4A" world" turns into a discussion about old software and copyright arguments akin to 'flame wars' of old found in the Y*hoo groups. Few winners, if any, will come of this.

[Tursi]

As usual, Tim.

 

FWIW, and IMO, the one who started that part apologized, would probably be best to just let the rest go. Injured parties should communicate directly with the offender and the rest don't need to be involved. :/

 

There's a whole lot of hurt feelings and I appreciate that, but there's never going to be a decision of right vs wrong in a forum thread, and all the harm noted that hasn't been apologized for was a hell of a long time ago, and punishments long served.

[ti99iuc]

Edited January 8, 2012 by ti99userclub

[sometimes99er]

Sure, you can add whatever you like - if you run into any problems just let me know. I plan to start on V2.0 sometime in the future as I still have hundreds of games to add to it.

 

OX....

 

There seems to be a lot of material in your gamebase that isn't PD stuff. How did you get permission to include them in your distro ?

 

So this had best been ignored, so people could go about their business, like distributing copyrighted music and screenshots ...

[Tursi]

well... if i put online a program where i can't found the original owner, or the original owner do not answer at mine emails and the program is an old program of 30 years old....

 

so i take that program, put it on my site (AS IS, with the name of the original programmer and all i do not change anything of the original program.... )... i could be a thief ?

 

At one point, I knew where in the code this was covered. You CAN make a claim that you attempted to contact the authors (or at least, you could several years ago when I read the whole thing - I can't find it now.) You have to do more than just send emails to an old address, though. You have to make "reasonable effort" to find and contact the copyright owner. You have to DOCUMENT that reasonable effort. And the definition of "reasonable" is going to be decided in a court of law, if it comes to that. But if you do all that, and can not locate the copyright holder, then you can assume public domain. But you do so at your own risk, since it is not completely clear that your search was comprehensive. You can still be held accountable.

 

Basically, at the lowest level, the answer is still no, you are not allowed to, but if your motives are good (ie: archival) and you can prove you /really/ tried to find someone who could legally give you permission, you /might/ get away with it even if contested.

 

Remember that 30 years is /nothing/ to US Copyright. The term is 70 years after the death of the author, or 120 years after first publication if it was a work for hire. 30 years isn't even close to halfway there.

 

I'll also note I have no interest in the debate over whether it's RIGHT or WRONG. This is just my interpretation of the law. I'm not a lawyer but as a content provider I feel it's in my interest to have a passing understanding of it, and it amazes me how such a seemingly simple concept gets so twisted.

 

One thing I DO have an opinion on is the common "well, if they contact me I will take it down, and that's ok". That really is a silly standpoint. Sure, it's easy for you, but put yourself in the author's position. First, you didn't tell them you were posting it, so they have no idea that people are getting their work through you in the first place. Second, if you aren't the only person doing it, it can be a substantial time burden on the creator to have to find everyone and contact them, possibly proving who they are every time, dealing with attitude and resistance from some ("it's old! why do you care?"). It's not fair to put that burden on the creator, and that's why the burden for obtaining permission is on the shoulders of the person who wishes to distribute.