I Made the Switch from CRT to LCD

[Keatah]

CRT's make the PC look slow. Whether it actually slows one down I don't know, depends on the refresh rate I suppose.

 

CRT's make a little hissing sound, really high pitch. And you can walk into a room and say with absolute certainty whether one is on or off. This is around 17khz with some higher harmonics. The best CRT's didn't do this. But, don't you remember, the thump they'd sometimes make and the hair standing up on your arms when you'd turn a big one on?

 

And here is absolute 100% proof that CRT's are noisy old beasts.

 

[phaxda]

Sure CRTs have their downsides, but for retro-goodness they can't be beat. I really want a full console one someday, but I am worried they will be all gone by the time I can afford to buy a house...

 

Noisy, dangerous, not green... kinda sounds like my brother-in-law's vintage Firebirds! Sure he has a new car too, but when you want to revel in history and nostalgia (video game or automotive), it's nice to have the option.

[cimerians]

Video modded Atari's and Coleco's look good on either a LCD or CRT for me but I prefer a CRT. Looks exactly how I used to play the games without the interference.

 

Nintendo systems: emulation is good enough for me.

Sega systems: emulation is good enough.

PS1\PS2: I go with CRT.

Dreamcast: CRT or VGA

 

Xbox: prefer LCD

Wii: LCD

PS3: LCD 1080p

Xbox360: LCD 1080P

[MaximRecoil]

CRT's make the PC look slow.

 

Is that a joke?

 

Whether it actually slows one down I don't know, depends on the refresh rate I suppose.

 

Is that another joke? The display device is 100% irrelevant to the PC's speed. You can connect an LCD, a CRT, or whatever; or you can have no monitor hooked up at all, and it changes nothing with regard to the PC's speed. The resources to generate the video signal come from the PC's video hardware.

 

CRT's make a little hissing sound, really high pitch. And you can walk into a room and say with absolute certainty whether one is on or off. This is around 17khz with some higher harmonics. The best CRT's didn't do this. But, don't you remember, the thump they'd sometimes make and the hair standing up on your arms when you'd turn a big one on?

 

If you're a dog or a small child you may hear it; it is inaudible to most people. CRTs wouldn't have been popular for ~60 years if they were all annoying everyone with a constant high-pitched sound.

 

And here is absolute 100% proof that CRT's are noisy old beasts.

 

 

Yet another joke?

[Keatah]

A beige monitor on a beige box looks slow and antiquated. A slick flat panel LCD sitting aside a set top box looks cool and futuristically fast.

 

If you tie in the refresh rate of the CRT to the framebuffer (vsync) then the PC has to slow down to that same speed. The pc is left sitting around doing nothing while the CRT goes through the proverbial vertical retrace. Well sure the cpu runs full-tilt, but the graphics slow down. That in comparison to a 240Hz refresh rate through DVI or HDMI. Yeh, it's all buffered, but, still.. whatever..

 

I more or less feel a hiss and tension in the air when near a CRT. They even scare me, the tube has all this electricity flowing around it and it could explode at any moment. Been scared of CRT's since I was a baby. And absolutely terrified when dad would open up the back to check the tubes. When he'd take one out I ran and scampered under the table. I wouldn't get in the same car when he drove to the drugstore to test them in that tester thing. But when there were no tubes around I found the tester console thing quite intriguing in an ADD sort of way.

 

The realtime transmission videos are just cool and relaxing. I set the soundtrack to loop over and over for good bedtime relaxation. But I swear *those* CRT's in the videos *are* going to explode.

 

I've seen people take those old console sets and put in modern LCD units as a re-fit project. Some look nice, but it borderlines on blasphemy.

 

Just my opinions, they're asshole-ee fer'sure, but we all have them.. And some are bigger than others.

 

I suppose in the end you go with what display tech works best with whatever source material. I just seem to be quite pleased with a modern LCD on a PC running an emulator with NTSC effects. Not all emulators get it right and it takes some tweaking. But this is what I observed over the last 50 years or so.

 

Reference: VCS + CRT and RF signal = the original standard

 

1- Modern LCD TV + original classic game console = mediocre image

2- LCD monitor with emulation and no NTSC effect = grating and harsh image

3- LCD monitor with emulation and good NTSC filter = a very nice image

4- modern LCD TV + modern game console = a very nice image

 

And I believe a lot of us are doing #1 and I understand the disappointment here. A lot of early game design relied on the smearing and bleeding and artifacting/aliasing inherent to the analog CRT and RF signal to smooth out the image.

 

Almost all of emulation for the past 15 years has revolved around #2. When I first played my first emulators I thought they were cool. But always found the image to be lacking. Too sharp and too harsh. No more is this evident than in the perfect square blocks with tack-sharp edges and corners. Not very easy on the eyes. The NTSC "signal path" would smooth out all this stuff and the nature of the CRT would continue it by adding a fuzzy glow around the edges.

 

Number 3 is something that is just coming to be, the past 2 years have seen more adoption of simulating blooming and filtering and all the missing goodness I mentioned above. I, too, find it hard to go back to emulators without filtering and "image artifacts".

 

And the last item - 4 - , well it is what it is, tech matched for tech, much like the original analog CRT's with the first gaming consoles. So it looks good.

 

Matching the display tech with the console hardware of the same era is very very important. It works both ways, you're not going to play PS3 on a b/w CRT. But you will play Tele-Pong on a b/w CRT. You won't play Tele-Pong on a 100" LCD panel and expect to have the same experience as if you did it on the 19" RCA TV, now will you? Nope!

[desiv]

the tube has all this electricity flowing around it and it could explode at any moment.

 

OMGosh!!

 

I'll just turn off the monitor and sit down by the fireplace and read a...

What? Natural Gas? It could explode at any moment!!!

 

I better get in my car and get...

What? My car is full of GAS?? That could explode at any moment!!!

 

Won't someone please think of the children!!!!

 

..

 

Seriously??

 

I'm glad you're happy with your LCDs, but I have both and for retro, I prefer my CRTs...

Even if they might...er. what's that snapping sound...

 

Oh 2wj3hl;akwhf234

 

<connection lost>

[MaximRecoil]

A beige monitor on a beige box looks slow and antiquated.

 

Not all CRT monitors are beige; and this is not only an odd opinion; it is perhaps the most irrelevant / out of left field opinion on this entire thread.

 

A slick flat panel LCD sitting aside a set top box looks cool and futuristically fast.

 

See above.

 

If you tie in the refresh rate of the CRT to the framebuffer (vsync) then the PC has to slow down to that same speed. The pc is left sitting around doing nothing while the CRT goes through the proverbial vertical retrace. Well sure the cpu runs full-tilt, but the graphics slow down. That in comparison to a 240Hz refresh rate through DVI or HDMI. Yeh, it's all buffered, but, still.. whatever..

 

There is no requirement to enable VSync; and what applies to CRTs in this respect also applies to LCDs; i.e., if you have a 60 Hz LCD with VSync enabled, the video hardware won't draw more than 60 FPS. This is all entirely optional; enabling VSync is to avoid screen tearing on high FPS applications (modern video games); but it can have its own set of problems and not everyone chooses to use it.

 

Also, the resolution / refresh rate that HDMI supports is irrelevant; a connection type supporting a given resolution / refresh rate doesn't have anything to do with whether the display is capable of that or not. RGB can easily support 1920 x 1080 @ 240 Hz (and higher) as well.

 

I more or less feel a hiss and tension in the air when near a CRT. They even scare me, the tube has all this electricity flowing around it and it could explode at any moment. Been scared of CRT's since I was a baby. And absolutely terrified when dad would open up the back to check the tubes. When he'd take one out I ran and scampered under the table. I wouldn't get in the same car when he drove to the drugstore to test them in that tester thing. But when there were no tubes around I found the tester console thing quite intriguing in an ADD sort of way.

 

These personal issues are all irrelevant to image-related performance.

[Bones Brigade]

These personal issues are all irrelevant to image-related performance.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Bones Brigade]

 

 

If you're a dog or a small child you may hear it; it is inaudible to most people. CRTs wouldn't have been popular for ~60 years if they were all annoying everyone with a constant high-pitched sound.

 

 

 

There ABSOLUTELY, without a single doubt, IS an audible high pitched whine/hiss related to CRT Television tubes and componentry when they are powered on. I've been a musician in load rock bands for the last 25 years, and my hearing is definitely less than perfect these days because of it, but I can still tell without even looking whether a CRT Television has been left on in a given room, provided there's not much other loud noise.

 

As for the popularity comment - I'll take a cue from your typical knee-jerk responses - Is this a joke? Until the Mid 1990's, CRTs were the ONLY format, period. It wasn't a matter of popularity, but availability.

 

What happened when LCD, Plasma, and DLP became available and affordable?

 

CRTs all but dissappeared. I guess they weren't too popular once there was actual competition, were they?

 

I understand your affinity for CRTs as by your stated opinions. But you need to realize that's all they are. Opinions. You can throw all the technical mumbo-jumbo about refresh rates, and anti-aliasing, and "natural" looking pixels around all you want, but he fact is, the performance aspect of Telelvision viewing is still just a personally subjective opinion, and nothing more. The eye of the beyholder, etc. (great D&D game by the way)

 

You prefer CRT televisions, specifically for Retro Gaming. There's nothing wrong with maintaining that opinion. But it doesn't constitute a fact, and your continued attemptes to present it as such makes it difficult to carry on an adult, well mannered conversation on the subject. Never mind your apparent desire to drown out everyone else on the thread by hammering everyone who might dare to disagree with you. This makes it difficult to take your opinion on the subject seriously.

[desiv]

There ABSOLUTELY, without a single doubt, IS an audible high pitched whine/hiss related to CRT Television tubes and componentry when they are powered on

I understand that there "can be" such a whine, but I stop short of saying there "IS" one...

 

I've had numerous CRT devices (and still do).

I have had some where I can hear the whine.

And others where I couldn't...

 

So, whether it's down to device and/or specific perception, I believe it is one of those things that depends...

but he fact is, the performance aspect of Telelvision viewing is still just a personally subjective opinion, and nothing more.

I totally agree...

 

It's all opinion..

 

Mine just happens to also be right.. :-) KIDDING!! JOKE!! :-)

 

desiv

[MaximRecoil]

Pot, meet kettle.

 

You clearly don't know what that phrase means, given that it has no application here.

 

There ABSOLUTELY, without a single doubt, IS an audible high pitched whine/hiss related to CRT Television tubes and componentry when they are powered on. I've been a musician in load rock bands for the last 25 years, and my hearing is definitely less than perfect these days because of it, but I can still tell without even looking whether a CRT Television has been left on in a given room, provided there's not much other loud noise.

 

"High-frequency audible noise

 

CRTs used for television operate with horizontal scanning frequencies of 15,734 Hz (for NTSC systems) or 15,625 Hz (for PAL systems).[49] These frequencies are at the upper range of human hearing and are inaudible to many people; however, some people (especially children) will perceive a high-pitched tone near an operating television CRT."

 

It is funny that the two most prominent CRT detractors in this thread both happen to have such stellar hearing.

 

As for the popularity comment - I'll take a cue from your typical knee-jerk responses - Is this a joke? Until the Mid 1990's, CRTs were the ONLY format, period. It wasn't a matter of popularity, but availability.

 

Say what? First of all, thanks for pointing out the blatantly obvious. Secondly, it is clear that my "popularity comment" was just outside of your reach. I'll repeat:

 

"CRTs wouldn't have been popular for ~60 years if they were all annoying everyone with a constant high-pitched sound."

 

This isn't a comparison to other formats; it is simply pointing out that things that annoy people (such as by constantly squealing in their ears) don't become popular at all; much less for ~60 years. A product that is a constant source of annoyance when it is turned on would be a fatal flaw. However, it didn't become a fatal flaw because most people can't hear it at all.

 

Also, I've bolded another phrase that you've misapplied.

 

What happened when LCD, Plasma, and DLP became available and affordable?

 

CRTs all but dissappeared. I guess they weren't too popular once there was actual competition, were they?

 

Good grief. See above.

 

I understand your affinity for CRTs as by your stated opinions. But you need to realize that's all they are. Opinions. You can throw all the technical mumbo-jumbo about refresh rates, and anti-aliasing, and "natural" looking pixels around all you want, but he fact is, the performance aspect of Telelvision viewing is still just a personally subjective opinion, and nothing more. The eye of the beyholder, etc. (great D&D game by the way)

 

No, performance is a matter of facts. Anyone is free to form their own opinions from those facts; but keep in mind that--contrary to popular belief--opinions are not inherently unassailable.

 

You prefer CRT televisions, specifically for Retro Gaming. There's nothing wrong with maintaining that opinion. But it doesn't constitute a fact, and your continued attemptes to present it as such makes it difficult to carry on an adult, well mannered conversation on the subject. Never mind your apparent desire to drown out everyone else on the thread by hammering everyone who might dare to disagree with you. This makes it difficult to take your opinion on the subject seriously.

 

Your editorial, which consists of: pointing out the obvious, a falsehood, irrelevance, and an attempted crystal ball reading; is dismissed.

Edited October 11, 2012 by MaximRecoil

[Bones Brigade]

CRTs used for television operate with horizontal scanning frequencies of 15,734 Hz (for NTSC systems) or 15,625 Hz (for PAL systems).[49] These frequencies are at the upper range of human hearing and are inaudible to many people; however, some people (especially children) will perceive a high-pitched tone near an operating television CRT."

 

It is funny that the two most prominent CRT detractors in this thread both happen to have such stellar hearing.

 

The average Human hearing range is between 20Hz and 20KHz. CRT's output at 15,734 Hz falls nearly 25% short of peak hearing range. Unless you're suggesting that "Normal" hearing is less than the 75 percentile of ALL humans, you might want to think about NOT cutting and pasting baseless conjecture quotes from Wikipedia as *ahem* Facts.

[Keatah]

I never said all monitors are beige in color. But the ones that are do indeed make your pc look slow and antiquated. Of that there is no question. These circus threads are almost funny when the conversation degrades to arguing semantics.

[Keatah]

I will never go to LCD's

 

Oh but you will..

[jmetal88]

Best reason for keeping a CRT around: Light gun games.

 

I would consider getting an LCD or Plasma TV for everyday use, but only if it supported my game consoles' native resolutions over the component input (I'm working on an RGB to Component transcoder that I want to be able to use for all my consoles that output RGB).

[Torr]

Add me (and just about anybody I know) as being in the camp that can "sense" a running CRT nearby.

Not saying it's a bad thing, but you can or at least should be able to "sense" when a CRT is running nearby.

Especially when it's nice and quiet.

I don't actually hear a whine or anything really in particular, you just... know... kinda like when you can "feel" someone staring at you...

[Atariboy]

You should be able to sense when one is on nearby?

 

Nonsense

[Keatah]

non-nonsense! You feel something in the air, an almost inaudible hiss, or that high-pitch sound. Seems like a mini tesla coil is about to erupt. And if you're even more sensitive, you can smell them. The ionizing radiation affects the air.

 

And like momma said don't put your face in the TV. If you do you can defo see the black ESD-attracted dust AND you can feel the radiation invade your head, especially on the 25" Zeniths from the mid 70's. It's like the whole atmosphere in the room is lifted up a few inches somehow.

[Atariboy]

And you think that everyone can or should be able to get these strange sensations like the previous user claimed? That's what I was calling nonsense on.

 

I have perfect hearing and I'm typing this with my head about two feet away from a CRT monitor right now and I've never heard or noticed anything stange in regard to CRT monitors in my three decades or so on this Earth. They make a sound when they start up (Automatic degaussing I thought it was) and some tv's in particular will feel odd and almost like static when you touch the screen when it's on or just been off for a while. And that's it beyond a pop or two on occasion as things contract and expand from temperature changes.

 

But I can assure you and Torr both that you're in extremely small minorities here and far from the norm in having these strange CRT sensations. And I can't help but wonder if you've both came to these conclusions in the years since you left CRT's behind and if you could be blindfolded and actually prove these claims in a test.

 

There are nutcases out there that think household electricty is the root of almost all evil. They claim they can feel it pulsating through a structure, that is causes them health issues like the inability to sleep well and numerous other issues including some that are supposedly immediate. And they advocate for things like turning our circuit breaker off when sleeping.

 

Yet when scientifically tested, they're never able to sense it and no ill effects happen like they claim.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Atariboy

[Keatah]

I have passed the blindfold test a good number of times. If so just to prove it to myself. But I can't really tell if there are live electrical wires in a room or not, those people are genuine nutcases. Just like those vitamin and healthfood store crazies. But powered up CRT's BAM, got'em nailed!

 

You *can* feel electricity in a structure if there's some kind of resonation going on and high power loads are all around you. But that isn't the typical home environment. I was thinking more along the lines of industrial settings. AND those high-tension lines? Sure, anybody can here a buzz, if they're under load and the air is right. That's common knowledge.

[Bones Brigade]

Theres nothing nutcase about being able to hear CRT cycles at 15KHz when human hearing is measured all the way up to 20KHz.

 

I don't believe all the "dangers" keatah here might be frightened if, but there is absolutely no denying that CRT cycles fall well inside the average human hearing range. Its not opinion or conjecture, but well documented scientific fact.

 

The fact that some people may not recognize or pay attention to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[MaximRecoil]

The average Human hearing range is between 20Hz and 20KHz. CRT's output at 15,734 Hz falls nearly 25% short of peak hearing range. Unless you're suggesting that "Normal" hearing is less than the 75 percentile of ALL humans, you might want to think about NOT cutting and pasting baseless conjecture quotes from Wikipedia as *ahem* Facts.

Theres nothing nutcase about being able to hear CRT cycles at 15KHz when human hearing is measured all the way up to 20KHz.

 

I don't believe all the "dangers" keatah here might be frightened if, but there is absolutely no denying that CRT cycles fall well inside the average human hearing range. Its not opinion or conjecture, but well documented scientific fact.

 

The fact that some people may not recognize or pay attention to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

20 kHz is the absolute upper range of human hearing, and that quickly falls off past childhood to around 16 kHz for most people. However, even though most adults can hear 16 kHz, it isn't only the frequency that matters; the SPL matters as well. Due to humans' decreased sensitivity to higher frequencies; the higher the frequency, the higher the SPL needs to be in order to hear it. In other words, the ~16 kHz sound that an NTSC CRT makes is not loud enough to break the sensitivity threshold for that frequency for most adults. Some dog whistles generate frequencies starting at 16 kHz, particularly adjustable ones.

 

Take a 16 kHz tone and run it though an amplifier and a horn-loaded compression driver to e.g. 120 dB, and yeah, most people will be able to hear it (and not like it).

 

Also, your blind distrust of Wikipedia ("Wikiphobia") is amusing. Are we back in 2003 again? Here's how Wikipedia works: things either have referenced sources or they don't. Everything is supposed to have a referenced source, and things that don't are subject to removal. In any event, the excerpt I posted did indeed have referenced sources. In other words, like most information on Wikipedia, a Wikipedia contributor was not the actual source of the information, but merely the messenger; and attacking the messenger is ridiculous.

Edited October 11, 2012 by MaximRecoil

[Bones Brigade]

20 kHz is the absolute upper range of human hearing, and that quickly falls off past childhood to around 16 kHz for most people. However, even though most adults can hear 16 kHz, it isn't only the frequency that matters; the SPL matters as well. Due to humans' decreased sensitivity to higher frequencies; the higher the frequency, the higher the SPL needs to be in order to hear it. In other words, the ~16 kHz sound that an NTSC CRT makes is not loud enough to break the sensitivity threshold for that frequency for most adults. Some dog whistles generate frequencies starting at 16 kHz, particularly adjustable ones.

 

Take a 16 kHz tone and run it though an amplifier and a horn-loaded compression driver to e.g. 120 dB, and yeah, most people will be able to hear it (and not like it).

 

Also, your blind distrust of Wikipedia ("Wikiphobia") is amusing. Are we back in 2003 again? Here's how Wikipedia works: things either have referenced sources or they don't. Everything is supposed to have a referenced source, and things that don't are subject to removal. In any event, the excerpt I posted did indeed have referenced sources. In other words, like most information on Wikipedia, a Wikipedia contributor was not the actual source of the information, but merely the messenger; and attacking the messenger is ridiculous.

Hilarious.

 

Did you actually click on the tagged source link for that quote?

 

 

http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/comp/crt/failWhine-c.html

The monitor is producing a high-pitched whine

Explanation: There is a very high-pitched whine coming from the monitor whenever it is on.

Diagnosis: Many monitors, especially cheaper ones, produce this sort of noise when they are running. It tends to get worse with many monitors as they age. The noise will be exaggerated in many cases if there is no signal to the monitor. Some people are much more sensitive to this type of noise than others.

 

The Wikipedia quote, and subsequently your own repeated statement of FACT that "most people can't hear it" is actually disregarded by the associated quote as linked on the wikipedia page.

[MaximRecoil]

Hilarious.

 

Did you actually click on the tagged source link for that quote?

 

 

http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/comp/crt/failWhine-c.html

 

 

The Wikipedia quote, and subsequently your own repeated statement of FACT that "most people can't hear it" is actually disregarded by the associated quote as linked on the wikipedia page.

 

No, it isn't "disregarded". It says: "Some people are much more sensitive to this type of noise than others." Wikipedia says: "These frequencies are at the upper range of human hearing and are inaudible to many people". I say that most people can't hear it, because I've never known anyone in real life that could hear a high-pitched sound coming from CRT TVs (nor any other sound during normal operation of a properly functioning CRT TV). I've never heard such a thing, not even when I was a kid. The idea that human hearing in general is significantly different among people I don't know vs. people I do know, is laughable. It is a nearly 16 kHz sound without much SPL. Obviously, most people aren't going to hear it; no more than most people can hear a 16 kHz dog whistle. The MP3 codec even discards frequencies that are 16 kHz or higher when encoding with bitrates of 128 kbps (the most popular bitrate for MP3 music) or less; again, because few people will miss such high frequencies.

 

By the way, do you believe that you can hear a high pitched sound from VGA CRT PC monitors?

 

Also, you failed to address the following facts ...

 

20 kHz is the absolute upper range of human hearing, and that quickly falls off past childhood to around 16 kHz for most people. However, even though most adults can hear 16 kHz, it isn't only the frequency that matters; the SPL matters as well. Due to humans' decreased sensitivity to higher frequencies; the higher the frequency, the higher the SPL needs to be in order to hear it. In other words, the ~16 kHz sound that an NTSC CRT makes is not loud enough to break the sensitivity threshold for that frequency for most adults. Some dog whistles generate frequencies starting at 16 kHz, particularly adjustable ones.

 

Take a 16 kHz tone and run it though an amplifier and a horn-loaded compression driver to e.g. 120 dB, and yeah, most people will be able to hear it (and not like it).

 

... and as such, your tacit concession on that matter is noted.

Edited October 11, 2012 by MaximRecoil

[Rex Dart]

I can absolutely walk into a room & tell you that there's a CRT TV on someplace. It might be because my ears were "trained" to the sound from years of sitting in front of one as a kid; I don't know. I generally won't hear that hum if there's audio coming from the set, though; only if it's muted or displaying some sort of "No Signal" notice. I haven't run into a VGA CRT in a while though, so I couldn't tell you if I'd notice the sound of one of those.

 

I disagree with 128kbps being the most popular MP3 bitrate. It may be the most common, due to plenty of old MP3 rips floating around the net, but I avoid that bitrate in favor of 192kbps or better. The loss of quality is noticible when all other things (volume, etc) are equal.

 

As far as LCDs looking cooler & futuristic, and CRTs being scary boogey-men... that's just a matter of personal taste & phobia, and doesn't really matter when comparing picture quality. "Sensing" when a CRT is on? Hey, some people can sense fairies, too.