I can't use a joystick anymore ...

[MaximRecoil]

They are not equivalent.

 

Yes they are; both functionally and electrically.

 

If you're going to play with semantics like you are by saying "functionally" equivalent, then an analog stick is the same as the digital stick because functionally, up is still up and down is still down.

 

It has nothing to do with semantics, and your analogy is false. While up is up and down is down with both an analog and digital joystick, somewhere between e.g. northeast and north is a valid direction for an analog joystick, while it can only produce exactly north or exactly northeast with a digital joystick; thus they are not equivalent. Additionally, a digital joystick has binary switches; i.e., only 2 states; open or closed; while an analog joystick has no switches; it registers a range of electrical values that increase or decrease as you move the stick. Again, not equivalent. On the other hand, the only difference between a D-pad and a digital joystick is the shape of the handle/pad/lever used to open/close the switches, and that is an ergonomic difference, not a functional or electrical difference.

 

The ergonomics between a D-Pad and a joystick are different.

 

Yes, that's what I've said more than once.

 

By having a stick, you are lengthening the throw and increasing the torque which improves movement.

 

The increased leverage does indeed allow you to apply more force to the switches, but because it is an entirely handheld device, you have to counteract that additional force with your hand that is holding the base (and you're only holding it with one hand rather than two). Additionally, this would only be relevant in an "all else being equal" scenario (such as if you lopped off most of the handle of a joystick to make a pad). In this case, a D-pad is designed to be easily manipulated with the thumb; additional force from a leverage advantage isn't necessary. Some D-pads even move too easily for my tastes (e.g. Sega Genesis controller's D-pad).

 

I'll argue that d-pad controllers came into vogue because they're cheaper and less prone to breakage. Gamers adapt. So if Nintendo makes great games and wants people to use a d-pad, gamers will have to use a d-pad. And gamers that grew up on Nintendo and Sega grew up on d-pad controllers.

 

They may be cheaper, but they are not necessarily less prone to breakage. Durability depends on individual designs. Nintendo arcade joysticks for example are all steel and practically indestructable. Slap a housing around it and add a button and you have a handheld joystick (like what Wico did with at least one of their models). However, gamepads also work really well, and they have better ergonomics than handheld joysticks.

 

My videogaming experience was first and foremost with arcade machines, then with a VCS and a ColecoVision, then with a NES. I thought the gamepads were weird at first, but I had no trouble using them.

 

And who determines superior ergonomics? I put forth this devil's advocate to show the fallacy in your arguments. Many gamers will say (and it's hard to argue) that a keyboard and mouse provides the most accuracy and the most flexibility of all game controllers. And you're probably gasping at the idea that KBM is the best option. So really, the best option cannot be objectively determined. It's what the individual gamer determines as the best based on his subjective criteria.

 

Just the fact that the base is more stable with a gamepad than a joystick (due to supporting it with both hands rather than one, and no leverage working against you) means better ergonomics. A mounted base = better ergonomics still, such as with an arcade machine. All of your relevant muscles/dexterity can be dedicated to controlling the buttons and joystick when you don't have to hold the base in place.

 

That's all I have to say on the subject. I think you're just pushing this thread to keep a conversation going.

 

I'm replying to posts. That's what a forum is for.

Edited April 11, 2012 by MaximRecoil

[NinjaWarrior]

I'm used to the controller, even at fighting games

[AtariLeaf]

 

 

 

[MaximRecoil]

 

*Ching*

*Ching*

Edited April 11, 2012 by MaximRecoil

[Cynicaster]

I think MaximRecoil gets kick-backs from d-pad vendors. I smell a conspiracy.

 

Seriously though, it may be true that handheld joysticks have some ergonomic deficiencies, but d-pads are not exactly a panacea themselves. The story I told earlier about playing that GBA on the long car ride, well, the reason I had to stop playing it was because my thumb was aching like a sonuvabitch--it was literally to the point where the physical pain was outweighing the enjoyment of the games. And it wasn't a superficial "blister" or "callous" type of discomfort, it was a deep aching in the knuckle joint of my left thumb that actually continued to bother me for the whole weekend. That was probably 6 months ago, and the only d-pad playing I've done since was a bit of NES here and there, and each time I could only stand it for about a half hour due to the same problem. Thank goodness for my MAME cabinet, that's all I have to say.

[fiddlepaddle]

I think MaximRecoil gets kick-backs from d-pad vendors.  I smell a conspiracy.

 

Seriously though, it may be true that handheld joysticks have some ergonomic deficiencies, but d-pads are not exactly a panacea themselves.  The story I told earlier about playing that GBA on the long car ride, well, the reason I had to stop playing it was because my thumb was aching like a sonuvabitch--it was literally to the point where the physical pain was outweighing the enjoyment of the games.  And it wasn't a superficial "blister" or "callous" type of discomfort, it was a deep aching in the knuckle joint of my left thumb that actually continued to bother me for the whole weekend.  That was probably 6 months ago, and the only d-pad playing I've done since was a bit of NES here and there, and each time I could only stand it for about a half hour due to the same problem.  Thank goodness for my MAME cabinet, that's all I have to say.

 

Anyone else remember all the fuss about "Pac Man elbow"?

[aikainnet]

From the title I expected this thread to be some horribly depressing tale about how arthritis or MS had ravaged your body to the point that you could no longer play 2600 Pac Man.

 

Its not MS!!! Its ALWAYS Lupus.

[kirin jensen]

I heartily recommend the O2 joystick. It's got a much better feel.

[AtariLeaf]

I heartily recommend the O2 joystick. It's got a much better feel.

 

Agreed. When I first tried an O2 I thought it had a strange feel but I quickly changed my mind after playing for a while. Its a suprisingly good stick.

[MaximRecoil]

My 21-year-old nephew stopped by yesterday. He's never used a handheld joystick before. He grew up with Nintendo 64 and newer consoles.

 

I said, "Let's play Combat!"

 

I grabbed my converted NES controller and said, "Here, you get this," while handing him a CX40.

 

It was a blowout; 26-2 on the level 1 tank game; 26-3 the second time we played; and similar scores on other variations (planes, jets).

 

"Why do I get the crappy controller and you get the super responsive NES pad?"

 

I told him that I grew up using an Atari joystick, so now it's his turn.

 

Then I beat him (another blowout of similar proportions) on Activision's Ice Hockey.

 

When he left, as he was walking out the door he hollered, "I'll make my own NES Atari controller!"

 

I didn't tell him that he could have used my Sega Genesis controller, because then I would have missed all of the comedy associated with him fumbling with and complaining about that Atari joystick.

 

I'm not suggesting that he lost so badly because of the joystick; the results would have been more or less the same if I'd been using the joystick and he'd been using the NES pad. I've always been able to easily beat him on classic video games. For example, when he was a kid in the late '90s he'd played through the entire game of Donkey Kong 64 on his own; had gotten all of the items, completed everything; except, he couldn't get past the part where you have play the arcade version of Donkey Kong and beat the 4 stages. He had even enlisted the help of a couple of his friends, and they couldn't get past those 4 DK stages either. Finally he called me up and asked me to help. I went over and went through those 4 stages with one man. He and his friends were amazed, as if I'd just done the impossible. I said, "Haven't you kids ever played the real Donkey Kong before?" I was met with blank and confused stares.

[IntellivisionDude]

I never could get used to using a joystick. And i'm not just saying that because of my love of the Intellivision. I actually got to play the 2600 quite a bit before i ever owned an Intellivision. A friend had a 2600 and we played lots of Combat, Outlaw and whatever games he had. Even then the joystick was uncomfortable for me. And i'm also in the minority that i actually preferred the Intellivision disc and never had a hard time with it.

 

Just recently within the last couple years i acquired some arcade sticks for the Nes, Snes, PS1, and Genesis. Thought i'd give them a second chance, maybe my opinion had changed over the years. But it was a lost cause. I have been using D-Pads all my life, it's in my blood.

 

I was even a late adopter to the Analog Sticks. For a while i despised the analog sticks. I was a PS1 owner and got myself the new updated controller (mine came with non analog sticks). It was so foreign at first. Kept wanting to go back to the D-Pad. I actually had an easier time with the N64 analog stick. I think that's when i finally got used to it and mastered it.

 

But the arcade stick or the 2600 joystick just wasn't happening. I tried, i really did. It may have been a different story if my first system would of been the 2600 and never got the Intellivision. Being a kid i would of mastered it and got used to it. When that's all you got, you make due and adapt.

[gliptitude]

D-Pad vs Stick is an issue of substance I think. And if it's difficult for you to transition back to the stick, imagine going all the way back to button only controls! If you've never played button only arcade games of the steer/thrust/shoot variety, it is a very difficult transition.

 

To some extent it is an issue of preference. But in many instances the games were intended to be played a certain way. It's a small issue with some games/systems and a bigger issue with others. In some instances it's almost cheating to use a pad.

 

I play mostly Vectrex anymore and I shuffle between a few different controllers. For many games a can play better and score higher with a pad controller. But for most of those games it is much more fun to play with the original control panel/thumb stick. I love that little springy thing!

[racerx]

The delicious irony is that after years of d-pads, the accepted standard is now thumb sticks, the same way we held our 2600 sticks.

[Hatta]

You use an Atari CX-40 with your thumb?

[racerx]

You use an Atari CX-40 with your thumb?

 

For 35 years. A lot of us apparently do.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/208337-thumb-on-top-or-firm-grip/

[TheGameCollector]

... such as the Atari CX40. Well I can, but I don't like it at all in comparison to a good gamepad (e.g. NES, SNES, PS). A gamepad is far more ergonomic and precise than a handheld joystick. If the joystick and button(s) are securely mounted (such as on an arcade machine or an "arcade stick" assembly) then that is a different story, but using one hand to both secure the base and work the button(s) while the other hand works the joystick is not an ideal arrangement.

 

My first console when I was a kid was an Atari 2600 which of course came with CX40 joysticks. This was before the NES and Sega Master System existed in the US. I didn't have any problems with the joystick back then, but I'd never used anything else. When I first tried a NES controller in '86 I thought it was ridiculous; a joke; and even after using it I wasn't convinced. I wanted a real joystick like I was used to. Over time the gamepads grew on me and I forgot all about handheld joysticks.

 

Recently I reacquired an Atari 2600 and I was looking forward to using a CX40 again for the first time since I was a kid; since I still had fond memories of it. It was horrible. I tried it for a few minutes and then went back to my converted NES gamepad (which I originally converted for use with my 7800 because I've never liked Pro-Line joysticks). I can only imagine how horrendous it would be to use a ColecoVision controller, since even as a kid I liked those even less than Pro-Lines.

 

To use those kinds of controllers, I just use my thumb placed firmly on the top of the stick and use my fingers on that hand to partially support the base. It stays in place and never slips off. It's much easier to use Colecovision and Atari 7800 controller that way so your left hand is a bit more free to use the buttons.

[0078265317]

Ya, I like nes also. Or le stick is good also. Its motion. So you just wave it the direction you want to go.

[Seob]

Agreed. When I first tried an O2 I thought it had a strange feel but I quickly changed my mind after playing for a while. Its a suprisingly good stick.

I converted 2 o2 sticks so i can use them on my atari dsub 9 compatible machines. Also modded my videopac(odyssey2) so it can use normal 9pin dsub atari compatible joysticks.

I don't like the stiffness of the cx40, and i really don't like the proline ones. I do like my sega arcade stick for playing games, and i like my "the arcade" stick because of it's durable microswitches.