emkay Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 But MK we can agree that TMR published more stuff than you? and that Callisto is looking like it looks could be simply because of lack experience on A8? Neverless the brain work... I wonder why I have to explain it to you in particular? Having a look at the moving objects, they still use coordinate programming on the C64, while on the A8 the vertical position has to be set every line and the colours have to be set every line though. Coding those scrolling games with some moving objects is far more easy compared to the A8. You have to accept that and to stop trying to reach the C64 there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 But MK we can agree that TMR published more stuff than you? and that Callisto is looking like it looks could be simply because of lack experience on A8? Neverless the brain work... Personally I feel that Callisto is a very good go at a shooter for the A8. OK, lets look at what we have already.... Zybex? Zybex to me is one of the best of it's type and to me, this beats it technically, with the DLI'd PMGs. The difficulty level is being worked on and the game isn't complete yet, but it will be some time in the near future. I've played the game stood next to TMR and very impressed I was. The C64 is a different machine, it'll have it's own strengths and weaknesses. The Atari has them too. Jeez, my PC is better than both of them. The problem still is that people try to get C64 with the A8. When it comes to "Sprites" the C64 will always beat the A8. TMR's Callisto is already using more "Brain" than Edge Grinder... btw. People really should stop nagging on C64 features and push the A8 to it's own strengths... Spacee Harrier, Project-M and the new Amaurote show the right direction(s)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 The problem still is that people try to get C64 with the A8. When it comes to "Sprites" the C64 will always beat the A8. TMR's Callisto is already using more "Brain" than Edge Grinder... btw. People really should stop nagging on C64 features and push the A8 to it's own strengths... Spacee Harrier, Project-M and the new Amaurote show the right direction(s)... Wow, I agree with emkay! Stop letting the A8 be defined relative to the C64. Everything doesn't have to be a contest. If you create something new for an old machine then that machine has 'won' even if another machine can do it better. You can take ideas from any anywhere, but in the end the challenge is to make the best use of the target hardware. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 The problem still is that people try to get C64 with the A8. When it comes to "Sprites" the C64 will always beat the A8. TMR's Callisto is already using more "Brain" than Edge Grinder... btw. People really should stop nagging on C64 features and push the A8 to it's own strengths... Spacee Harrier, Project-M and the new Amaurote show the right direction(s)... Wow, I agree with emkay! Stop letting the A8 be defined relative to the C64. Everything doesn't have to be a contest. If you create something new for an old machine then that machine has 'won' even if another machine can do it better. You can take ideas from any anywhere, but in the end the challenge is to make the best use of the target hardware. "Like" All these old machines had their own strengths and weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO99 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 NEWSFLASH! I've just managed to buy on eBay UK an Atari 65XE, complete with XC12 tape drive, and three games for the bargain price of £22.01 (US$37.71)! This is such a bargain, because I've recently seen XC12 tape drives offered for £24 (US$38.94) alone!! I hope to receive this in the next 1-2 days from a company using a quick courier, not an individual seller. Unfortunately, It's quite likely I can't be in when they try to deliver, so I need to have a word with my neighbours, who have faced some common problems with me, although a lot of neighbours have been moving in and out recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 NEWSFLASH! I've just managed to buy on eBay UK an Atari 65XE, complete with XC12 tape drive, and three games for the bargain price of £22.01 (US$37.71)! This is such a bargain, because I've recently seen XC12 tape drives offered for £24 (US$38.94) alone!! I hope to receive this in the next 1-2 days from a company using a quick courier, not an individual seller. Unfortunately, It's quite likely I can't be in when they try to deliver, so I need to have a word with my neighbours, who have faced some common problems with me, although a lot of neighbours have been moving in and out recently. Don't know what you are saying... perhaps it's my 'BAD ENGLISH'... Why? Just the question? (and without a face close one of the eyes...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO99 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 NEWSFLASH! I've just managed to buy on eBay UK an Atari 65XE, complete with XC12 tape drive, and three games for the bargain price of £22.01 (US$37.71)! This is such a bargain, because I've recently seen XC12 tape drives offered for £24 (US$38.94) alone!! I hope to receive this in the next 1-2 days from a company using a quick courier, not an individual seller. Unfortunately, It's quite likely I can't be in when they try to deliver, so I need to have a word with my neighbours, who have faced some common problems with me, although a lot of neighbours have been moving in and out recently. Don't know what you are saying... perhaps it's my 'BAD ENGLISH'... Why? Just the question? (and without a face close one of the eyes...) I'm not sure what you don't understand, but here's the translation from www.frengly.com, although I had to delete some contactions (i.e. 've and 'nt), plus the words "NEWSFLASH!", as well as "neighbours" (vozinhos?) hasn't been translated. . NEWSFLASH! Eu só conseguissem comprar no eBay Reino Unido um Atari 65XE, completo com XC12 null unidade, e três brincadeiras por a pechincha preços de £22.01 (US$37.71)! Disto é tais um pechincha, porque Eu recentemente viu XC12 null drives ofereceram por £24 (US$38.94) sozinho!! Espero a receber disto a próxima 1-2 dias de um empresa usando um rápido correio, nao um indivíduo null. Infelizmente, Ele'null muito provavelmente Eu posso estar em eles tentamos entregar, entao Eu precisa possuir um palavra com minha neighbours, que tinham encarou alguma comum problemas comigo, embora muita neighbours foram movendo-se em e fora recentemente. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 So... does your cross post (that's a no no isn't it?) mean that you bought a C64 to learn to program in BASIC, found it wasn't easy, and bought an Atari? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JAC! Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Considering that I also bought a C64 with a datasette some weeks ago, I should really give BASIC a go. The first thing I'd like to code is a separate "1987-2012 System Clash Forum", so these threads don't end up on AtariAge anymore. Maybe people will stop when they have to write their "my system if better than..." bashing posts with DATA statements and check sums again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Tried that with formatwar.net Not only did the usual suspects not step foot on there people ended up using it for reasonable technical discussion and collaboration. People just won't use anything for its intended purpose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 You weren't supposed to use Commodore 64 BASIC. You were supposed to use Garry Kitchen's GameMaker: http://www.mts.net/~...maker/info.html http://www.garrykitc..._gamemaker.html I actually did use GameMaker to make a couple games. The first was a slot machine game which turned out pretty nice. The 2nd was ROCKY and didn't get past the intro screen. (Had just seen Rocky IV and loved the movie intro) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Sorry, only here for a little while - got a deadline coming up and was ill over the weekend! =-( I'm sure TMR won't mind me saying he's not the greatest graphic artist (very good but not great) and as a test piece Callisto look great, I'll play it but then I value game play over looks. i'd be the first to say i'm an average graphics artist at best, but like i've said before it's difficult to get people outside the A8 community to collaborate after they see shouty forum goings on and everybody inside has their own projects on the go. Plus a lot of Callisto is built in tools that aren't exactly user friendly... user bloody hostile might be closer to the truth! =-) Having a look at the moving objects, they still use coordinate programming on the C64, while on the A8 the vertical position has to be set every line and the colours have to be set every line though. Internally, Edge Grinder and Callisto both see their objects in the same way, they both keep an 8-bit value for both X and Y (i'm halving the X resolution of the C64's sprites), two movement commands with durations and some timers. There's only two real differences between 'em; sprite colour is handled by the object in Edge Grinder and the sprite data in Callisto and Callisto can actually do a couple of things with it's move engine that Edge Grinder can't since it has unique durations for each move command. Callisto is using a sorting multiplexer - in other words, it's not doing what Mirax Force or Humanoid are with fixed position sprite recycling - and the lack of flamboyance when it comes to vertical movement is because, whilst it can replicate the waves in Edge Grinder, it starts dropping stitches when the hardware sprites are overloaded. It gets bloody close to knocking itself over about three times a level as is, but i wasn't willing to have it dropping odd frames like that and locked the movement patterns up to prevent it. People really should stop nagging on C64 features and push the A8 to it's own strengths... Spacee Harrier, Project-M and the new Amaurote show the right direction(s)... They're some directions, but that shouldn't negate people experimenting, trying new ideas, running off giggling down a side path... if someone turns up tomorrow with a game inspired by Warhawk but moving twice as many objects nobody should be saying "that's not what you should be doing". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I don't think there are any right directions. There are just people, ideas and machines. Sometimes it's great, other times it's not, but everybody should be having fun however they can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 MK. Agreed. But everybody is free to code whatever he wants on A8. Even they are 2600 style sprites. oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) I like 2600 style sprites, BTW. Two paths there. Combine them, work for it, and get a some multi-colored ones. Or... maybe not. Do the same work and get a whole lotta single colored ones... In the context of a shooter, I wonder which I would prefer. On one hand, nice looking enemies is fun. We all go for that. But then again, a lot of enemies, with aggressive and free movement? That's fun too. Edited May 1, 2012 by potatohead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) MK. Agreed. But everybody is free to code whatever he wants on A8. Even they are 2600 style sprites. oops. Ofcourse. But there is the economic factor limiting what has to be done to reach the "game". Games looked and sounded on the C64 easily better. So the coders, graphicians, musicians. looked like "gods" to the people. Space Taxi.... the game producer hadn't to do much with it, but it was recognized "wow". Letting the market growing on the C64 made it people think "C64 can do all". But SID, VICII and the slow CPU didn't help with ego view games. They still looked good... in Photo's of Newspapers, but they played like crap due to the low movement resolution... or due to the slowness at all. People today remember "Driller" only by the Soundtrack... if you know what I'm writing about. On the Atari, you had to do the "double work" . What the C64 had available in the Hardware, the Atari had to build -as good as possible- via software. And the "Sprites" never got there.... SID Sound, Sprites, colours - to handle easy with only some enhanced coding skills .... made the C64 the most preferred platform for "coding beginners".... But in Ego view games, the work has been "the double" on both machines, while on the A8 things got rather more fluent, due to the processor and Antic's features. So, because "A" didn't work, "B" has been missed. And only people who really liked the A8, pushed it to some PC like quality in 3D/Ego view regions, showing the economic aspect is on the Atari's side there... Edited May 1, 2012 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) As much as i love the 8bit/ 5200 , the 64's library is unbeatable... Of course it is, cue the Apple ][: This is a page from Electronic Games magazine from 1985 (EG was an 80s gaming magazine run by the experts Katz, Kunkel and Worley) Edited May 1, 2012 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 As much as i love the 8bit/ 5200 , the 64's library is unbeatable... Of course it is, cue the Apple ][ 16,000 is impressive, but we'd need to know how accurate that is as a final total, does it include homebrew/PD titles and is that just games or everything? It's hard to compare. If it's final and everything, the Spectrum has that beaten by over a thousand releases just from it's games, utilities and educational software according to the WoS database. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) And that's only up to 85. EG is (was usually) 99% accurate, WoS and GB64 are not accurate by a long shot. Check out GB64 how many Boulderdash games it has listed, or how many SEUCK, PCS, ACS, Lode Runner screens and whatever self made games they include. Also type-in listings are included. Check out EA releases how many dups are included. It's all included in the final count. WoS is the same, AM actually too. Edited May 1, 2012 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 90% of games an *all platforms* aren't much good. If you look carefully on the C64, Spectrum, Atari or any other platform you'll notice that discussion pretty much revolves around the same dozen titles a vast majority of the time. It's down to who got the classics, and at that point pretty much all platforms seem to level out at about a dozen essential games... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 And that's only up to 85. EG is (was usually) 99% accurate, WoS and GB64 are not accurate by a long shot. Check out GB64 how many Boulderdash games it has listed, or how many SEUCK, PCS, ACS, Lode Runner screens and whatever self made games they include. Also type-in listings are included. Check out EA releases how many dups are included. It's all included in the final count. WoS is the same, AM actually too. You overestimate the amount of game maker games on GB64. I just looked: ~1000 Bould Dash Construction Set games. ~250 SEUCK games. 783 Pinball Set C.S. games. Together with the games made for some of the more rarely used game makers, I estimate around 2500-3000 game maker games at max. That's still a database of 20000 games. I also think that type-ins are valid entries, some commercial titles are much worse than some of the better type-ins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Type-ins are valid, wow how many you gotta add to A2 releases then? Don't forget A2 went from 77 - 92. Huge amount of people wrote their own stuff too, especially during the 70s Also don't forget the dups on GB64, EA, Activision, Infocom... There are lots Edited May 1, 2012 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JAC! Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) a lot of Callisto is built in tools that aren't exactly user friendly... user bloody hostile might be closer to the truth! =-) In this case I hope you are not using WUDSN IDE yet :-) Callisto is using a sorting multiplexer... and together with the sprite color changes I think it's excellent. Really tough job and in the video it looks great. And I also like the what they call "VCS" Sprites. That's the true Atari version of good shooter: Low resolution, rainbow colors, action! Edited May 1, 2012 by JAC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 a lot of Callisto is built in tools that aren't exactly user friendly... user bloody hostile might be closer to the truth! =-) In this case I hope you are not using WUDSN IDE yet :-) Sorry, should've clarified a little; i meant the tools that a graphics artist would have to work with, some of which are bespoke for Callisto and about as friendly as a honey badger. Backgrounds are built with the old version of Char Pad (because i can persuade it to stick to rules that work for the A8) and then processed with a specially fudged version of an already terrible tool i wrote for extracting CTM files. Sprites are drawn in a long strip using a bitmap editor and then ripped using a tool i didn't even get around to writing a user interface for that builds source code... you get the idea. =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 And that's only up to 85. EG is (was usually) 99% accurate But in this case it's an educated guess because nobody back then would've really known; Mom and Pop companies were releasing new games that might sell in ten or twenty local stores but nowhere else, anyone trying to work out how much software any machine had at the time had to factor in a guess in how much of that kitchen table business was going on and, without knowing how that was handled, it doesn't give us anything to run an actual comparison with. WoS and GB64 are not accurate by a long shot. i didn't mention Gamebase because it's complicated, but with WoS things are probably more accurate than most; if someone looks up Cybernoid for example, there's the original release, Kixx budget, two Spanish versions and three compilation releases but the database is counting it as just one entry. This page lists them by category (and i've just discovered the Text Adventures area is stand-alone, those titles don't appear under Games as well so the total is higher overall) so right now that's 10,494 games, 2,196 text adventures, 1,542 educational programs and 5,720 utilities, 19,952 in total (sod it, add the adult games on and it passes the 20,000 mark =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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