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andym00

F*** the 64..

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Do you have a demo screen to post for this?

No more, it was floating around with the Elite stuff back then, and I no longer have the hard drive with all that stuff on from those times..

Suffice to say, it was the same polygon stuff as the Elite thing, but specialised calculations for the floor..

It didn't run very fast though ;)

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Oh, another evil c64 thread ;-)

I'm here for 2600 which I love and my machine-of-choice was and is the C64. Never had any A8 beside the VCS :)

But I wouldnt dare dissing it or such. Plus I barely see such things on any c64 forum.

This flaming appears to be very immature and spiked by weird other emotions. Jealousy? Bitterness?

I really dont get it. Certainly Im not gonna argue about this issue since I couldnt. I only know one of the two brands/machines by heart and that is C64. So I'm pretty biased.

Im coding for c64 AND Atari since they share the same CPU basically. And 6502-assembly is what I love. So no need to differ between vcs 2600 and C64 there.

Both have unique hardware. One among(!) the most powerful/complex ones the other probably the weakest hardware wise of all 6502-devices.

I also like the Acorn Electron btw.

I wouldnt dream of starting some Electron-bashing or Speccy-bashing anywhere ever.

Hmm, I might point and make fun of the Amiga ;-)

But its ok to bully bigger people I think :)

This anti-c64-rage does really really not make 'you' look good.

6502 and 8 bit obviously.

Isnt that something c64 and Atari8bit communities share and enjoy?

There is ALOT THAT differs, demo-scene, amount of releases, coding skills, color palette, cpu clock, blabla...

I'd MUCH rather focus on what is in common:

great CPU, smart assembly-coding, low memory (compared to nowadays standards) and an active community (well, Acorn Electron community is pretty much absent).

That much anger rather saddens me.

I hope people still enjoy their c64s and ataris and are not occupied by hating the other...

 

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

love the C64 too

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No more, it was floating around with the Elite stuff back then, and I no longer have the hard drive with all that stuff on from those times..

Suffice to say, it was the same polygon stuff as the Elite thing, but specialised calculations for the floor..

It didn't run very fast though ;)

 

Thats a shame :(. I have had mad thoughts about doing the same sort of thing on the 7800 but there would be a whole ton of cheating going on plus I could triple buffer on the XM without any trouble.

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Oh, another evil c64 thread ;-)

I'm here for 2600 which I love and my machine-of-choice was and is the C64. Never had any A8 beside the VCS :)

But I wouldnt dare dissing it or such. Plus I barely see such things on any c64 forum.

This flaming appears to be very immature and spiked by weird other emotions. Jealousy? Bitterness?

I really dont get it. Certainly Im not gonna argue about this issue since I couldnt. I only know one of the two brands/machines by heart and that is C64. So I'm pretty biased.

Im coding for c64 AND Atari since they share the same CPU basically. And 6502-assembly is what I love. So no need to differ between vcs 2600 and C64 there.

Both have unique hardware. One among(!) the most powerful/complex ones the other probably the weakest hardware wise of all 6502-devices.

I also like the Acorn Electron btw.

I wouldnt dream of starting some Electron-bashing or Speccy-bashing anywhere ever.

Hmm, I might point and make fun of the Amiga ;-)

But its ok to bully bigger people I think :)

This anti-c64-rage does really really not make 'you' look good.

6502 and 8 bit obviously.

Isnt that something c64 and Atari8bit communities share and enjoy?

There is ALOT THAT differs, demo-scene, amount of releases, coding skills, color palette, cpu clock, blabla...

I'd MUCH rather focus on what is in common:

great CPU, smart assembly-coding, low memory (compared to nowadays standards) and an active community (well, Acorn Electron community is pretty much absent).

That much anger rather saddens me.

I hope people still enjoy their c64s and ataris and are not occupied by hating the other...

 

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

love the C64 too

 

But the OP quoted a different website, not AA.

 

I love Spectrum bashing, that non-computer was just awful in every aspect. A joke, like Maggy Thatcher herself (She showed off the Spectrum to the Japanese saying 'with this miniature marvel we'll control the computer industry'. Imagine this would have happened; a nightmare on Elm Street times 24'...UK had a close escape, a Victor Meldrew would say, lucky the Spectrum only lasted 8 years, that was 8 years too much...Was very sad for C64 coming second to.....that!!!!!

 

 

.

Edited by high voltage

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Thats a shame :(. I have had mad thoughts about doing the same sort of thing on the 7800 but there would be a whole ton of cheating going on plus I could triple buffer on the XM without any trouble.

 

I still have mad thoughts about the 7800 and 3D on a fairly frequent basis, especially the idea of putting I'Robot on it, since it's never been ported to anything and I love that game.. Though every time I sit down and think about doing it on the 7800 it just doesn't seem workable, which is a shame as it's the only 8bit that has the palette, a fair resolution and the number of on screen colours to do it right..

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[i still have mad thoughts about the 7800 and 3D on a fairly frequent basis, especially the idea of putting I'Robot on it, since it's never been ported to anything and I love that game.. Though every time I sit down and think about doing it on the 7800 it just doesn't seem workable, which is a shame as it's the only 8bit that has the palette, a fair resolution and the number of on screen colours to do it right..

 

I don't thing you'd get very close to 50FPS on it and I think you'd have to pre-compute a whole ton of things as well. It'd be a breeze on the jag.

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I don't thing you'd get very close to 50FPS on it and I think you'd have to pre-compute a whole ton of things as well. It'd be a breeze on the jag.

 

Oh no, it'd never be 50, but then I'm not sure the actual arcade machine is either :)

Thing is it'd be a breeze on the Jag, but where's the fun in that ?

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Oh no, it'd never be 50, but then I'm not sure the actual arcade machine is either :)

Thing is it'd be a breeze on the Jag, but where's the fun in that ?

 

Have you seen Spitfire on the 5200? That has quite an interesting rendering technique (its no I Robot tho) :-

 

http://www.atariprot...re/spitfire.htm

 

I have actually, and I wondered a few times exactly how their renderer worked, though I've never seen it moving, just staring at the screenshots wondering how to do that :) So a low priority curiosity really...

Is there a ROM for that available anywhere yet ? I'm still very curious how smoothly it moves on screen...

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Man, I second the idea of running off to get one an Archimedes! Not going to, because I've got plenty to hack on, but still... Brilliant video. Thanks for linking!

 

The lego pixel idea just doesn't translate to me. Maybe if some work was done to simplify the graphics, maybe some other work to seriously manage scale and view perspective... not too plausible, IMHO. Fat pixels are fun for some things! I like to see the pixels, but it needs to make some sense.

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I think this is the one:

 

http://www.atarimani...fire_14919.html

 

Oh!, that is indeed the one.. I assumed since AtariProtos didn't have a link to it that it wasn't available..

Having said that, once I'd got my head around the 5200 controller setup in Altirra, and got into the game it's not as fast as I thought it'd be..

I was imagining it to be faster, but once you play it I guess it doesn't really have to be any faster than that really, not given the way it's presented on screen..

Still a clever little system though.. I think some disassembling might be in order :)

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Do it in wireframe mode. Check out 5200 Blaster to see how fast a 3D game can run. Or do the ground as a 256 dot height map. That should keep the feel of the original, without having to be a 100% visual copy.

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Do it in wireframe mode. Check out 5200 Blaster to see how fast a 3D game can run.

 

On the 7800 its actually slower to draw wire frames than it is to do filled polygons.

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The A8 definitely needs 3D interested programmers....

 

Wireframes-.....brrrr

 

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Man, I second the idea of running off to get one an Archimedes! Not going to, because I've got plenty to hack on, but still... Brilliant video. Thanks for linking!

 

The lego pixel idea just doesn't translate to me. Maybe if some work was done to simplify the graphics, maybe some other work to seriously manage scale and view perspective... not too plausible, IMHO. Fat pixels are fun for some things! I like to see the pixels, but it needs to make some sense.

 

I've already got my eye on one.. It will be mine very soon with any luck ;)

 

As for Zarch.. I think my brain had blurred out just how slow the ST version is looking at that side-by-side video again .. I always have the Archimedes version burned into my head for some reason, which is odd, because I've never actually played it on a real machine.. Just looked at lots of videos of it.. If you were to settle for an ST'like frame rate then there'd be a lot more room for rendering the thing..

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The Archimedes has the polygon filling advantage because it doesn't have to read/and/or/write for each pixel like the ST has to.

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You mean Emkay needs Atari to need interested 3D programmers, right?

 

Right.

 

That's what you need to think.

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Do it in wireframe mode. Check out 5200 Blaster to see how fast a 3D game can run. Or do the ground as a 256 dot height map. That should keep the feel of the original, without having to be a 100% visual copy.

 

Blaster is very cool, but the display system for it is something that's very much built around stuff the hardware & cpu can handle really well.. Or else it got very lucky given the way it was using the blitter on the arcade board to do the rendering, which I guess is the same blitter as Robotron and family.. Top game, though I think anything using a similar style of rendering would have a hard time not looking like Blaster :)

 

I'd totally forgotten the Speccy does it in wireframe mode, and (I assume because I'm not installing a Speccy emulator right now and can't find a video of it) doesn't actually scroll the map smoothly, and it doesn't look so bad all said and done..

Virus-spectrum-screenshot.gif

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I hate the C64 because of a lot of stress trying to program, caused by the antique dialect of BASIC I found out it had. When I found out that some computers had a 3 or 4 channel synthesiser chip instead of just a 1 channel sound chip or tone generator, I made a shortlist of those. Little did I know! I nearly got an Atari 8 bitter instead. I sold the C64 after 10-11 months, with some books for half price of the total. Here's some more details, which I've already posted on another thread.

 

I've done some more research into the numbers of BASIC commands on the Commodore 64, as well as on rival computers and here they are.

 

Click here for a full list of Commodore 64 BASIC commands (total 71) -

 

http://www.c64-wiki....hp/C64-Commands

 

Click here for a full list of Sinclair Spectrum BASIC commands (total 86) -

 

http://en.wikipedia..../Sinclair_BASIC

 

Click here for a full list of Amstrad Locomotive BASIC commands (total 165) -

 

http://cpcwiki.eu/in...ocomotive_BASIC

 

Click here for a full list of Atari BASIC XL commands (total 82)

 

http://www.atariarch...ge.php?page=376

 

I hope this proves conclusively that Commodore either just didn't care, were too stingy to pay anyone to create a new version of BASIC for the Commodore 64, or BOTH! We'll never know how many would be programmers had their confidence shattered by the Commodore 64. I can't help wondering how or why anyone managed to learn how to program it in 6502 Assembly Language, running on the compatible 6510 CPU. My theory is that some programmers learnt on the excellent Atari 8 bit range of computers, then were also able to put this knowledge to use on the Commodore 64. I read that one British software house hated the Commodore 64 so much, that they programmed games for it using a development kit running on the BBC Micro. Apart from anything else, the Commodore 64 was a revamped version of the Commodore Max games console (which included a keyboard), that it seems only went on sale in Japan. This had two versions of BASIC available, one without the ability to SAVE or LOAD programs, the other with only 2047 bytes free to BASIC! I don't know if any RAM upgrades were available. For more information on this botched pile of crap click on the two links below!

 

http://en.wikipedia....ore_MAX_Machine

 

http://www.northnet....or/cbm/max.html

 

I hate the C64 because of a lot of stress trying to program, caused by the antique dialect of BASIC I found out it had. When I found out that some computers had a 3 or 4 channel synthesiser chip instead of just a 1 channel sound chip or tone generator, I made a shortlist of those. Little did I know! I nearly got an Atari 8 bitter instead. I sold the C64 after 10-11 months, with some books for half price of the total. Here's some more details, which I've already posted on another thread.

 

I've done some more research into the numbers of BASIC commands on the Commodore 64, as well as on rival computers and here they are.

 

Click here for a full list of Commodore 64 BASIC commands (total 71) -

 

http://www.c64-wiki....hp/C64-Commands

 

Click here for a full list of Sinclair Spectrum BASIC commands (total 86) -

 

http://en.wikipedia..../Sinclair_BASIC

 

Click here for a full list of Amstrad Locomotive BASIC commands (total 165) -

 

http://cpcwiki.eu/in...ocomotive_BASIC

 

Click here for a full list of Atari BASIC XL commands (total 82)

 

http://www.atariarch...ge.php?page=376

 

I hope this proves conclusively that Commodore either just didn't care, were too stingy to pay anyone to create a new version of BASIC for the Commodore 64, or BOTH! We'll never know how many would be programmers had their confidence shattered by the Commodore 64. I can't help wondering how or why anyone managed to learn how to program it in 6502 Assembly Language, running on the compatible 6510 CPU. My theory is that some programmers learnt on the excellent Atari 8 bit range of computers, then were also able to put this knowledge to use on the Commodore 64. I read that one British software house hated the Commodore 64 so much, that they programmed games for it using a development kit running on the BBC Micro. Apart from anything else, the Commodore 64 was a revamped version of the Commodore Max games console (which included a keyboard), that it seems only went on sale in Japan. This had two versions of BASIC available, one without the ability to SAVE or LOAD programs, the other with only 2047 bytes free to BASIC! I don't know if any RAM upgrades were available. For more information on this botched pile of crap click on the two links below!

 

http://en.wikipedia....ore_MAX_Machine

 

http://www.northnet....or/cbm/max.html

 

Except that Laser Basic for the C64 is massively more powerful than any other version of BASIC for any other 8 bit computer. It surpasses BBC BASIC. What I like about Laser BASIC is the really neat things it adds like three concurrent tasks and loads of automated routines for example to do flypaths for sprites or play notes on the SID for music too via interrupts so you can concentrate on the structured code. The commands are excellent too with a lot of advanced stuff like WHILE/WEND and Procedures etc.

 

It's like STOS + FAST BASIC combined on the ST, I even wrote my simple version of Mac Paint on it.

 

Just £29.99 in the mid 80s from Ocean. Also on CPC and Spectrum but their sound/graphics hardware hurt the games writing potential.

 

As for Gary Lardon, he already said on Llamasoft forum (yakyak.org) he considers the A8 Lucasfilm versions superior.

 

But let's be honest, of all the people involved in those discussions the only really intelligent and unbiased person with the experience in the industry worth speaking to is Julian Rignall. A CVG arcade champion, editor and writer for Computer and Video Games (greatest multi-format magazine in the world btw) and a downright professional chap.

 

If HE says the C64 was overall the best 8bit machine, and he liked Dropzone/Elektraglide/Pastfinder on the A8 more so he is not Anti A8 at all, then this is coming from a professional games playing champion AND a professional employee of the biggest UK magazines from the 80s to the 90s.

 

And Rev is just a very opinionated nobhead, if you read some of his reviews in Amiga Power and then compare that with the quality of writing from others like Julian Rignall or Gary Penn (Liddon had little useful to add to the magazine when Penn and Rignall were there) then you can take the whole thing objectively.

 

I doubt either of the two articles are written in an unbiased way but for fucksake a computer with rubber keys, no sound chip (farting noises do not count as sound effects!), no more than two colours per 8x8 pixel block in a lower resolution (256x192 vs 320x200 on C64) no sprites, hardware pixel scroll or even joystick ports is NOT going to be better than the C64. The Spectrum is beneath the A8, Amstrad CPC and C64. End of discussion.

 

Spectrum = pregnant calculator for poor people who couldn't afford a real computer at the time.

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The Archimedes has the polygon filling advantage because it doesn't have to read/and/or/write for each pixel like the ST has to.

 

Thinking about it some more (its been a long time since I coded on the ST) it probably does read/and/or/write at the left edge of the polygon raster line (if not 16 pixel aligned) then writes blocks of 16 pixels and then read/and/or/write to complete (if required).

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The Archimedes has the polygon filling advantage because it doesn't have to read/and/or/write for each pixel like the ST has to.

 

I think the fact that clock for clock it destroys a 68k also plays some minor part in it...

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Heh... interesting... you should read 'On the Edge: the Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore'

 

and then you will know why the C64 isnt a 'revamped Commodore Max'

why the basic sucked, and some other interesting tidbits...

 

sloopy.

 

BASIC 'sucked' because Jack Tramiel used the same 1977 copy of Microsoft BASIC in all this computers and screwed Billy out of millions! Absolutely butt raped Microsoft by refusing royalties and insisting that ownership of PET(or VIC) BASIC was with Commodore to modify as they wished.

 

The guy was a genius, Clive Sinclair may look like Mr Burns on the Simpsons but the real genius was Jack Tramiel (RIP)

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