oky2000 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) He means purely the fundamental frequency.. The rest of his other post is the usual meaningless & incomprehensible psychobabble.. I was just listening to a Pokey tune on Youtube funnily enough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S55XTMRsUgk Did anyone do conversion of tune for level 1 or 2? Edited May 7, 2012 by oky2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 For reference, all the really good stuff exists under 5Khz. The (broken) HD digital radio codec in use in the US directly encodes 5-8Khz, artificially profiling and reproducing higher frequencies on the receiver side of things. Most people don't even notice. 3.5 is very well suited to music, and harmonics above that can open up the sound considerably more than it really is, considering fundamental frequencies. Effects can sound "dull" without higher frequency components. And that kind of sums up the overall difference in performance. A SID is a music oriented device. POKEY does effects significantly better than it does music at present, given how it's exploited. IMHO, like the display system in Atari computers, the sound system lends itself to abstract games more than anything else. That isn't negative, just part of the flavor people identify with, as they would any machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 He means purely the fundamental frequency.. The rest of his other post is the usual meaningless & incomprehensible psychobabble.. I was just listening to a Pokey tune on Youtube funnily enough. Well... you didn't understand the direct phrase about the "fundamental frequency" ... But you understand "meaningless & incomprehensible" babble? Then you post a conversion , someone did, using the RMT, and isn't really into knowledge about POKEY... ... despite off all explanations before, where has been explained that RMT doesn't fully support 16 bit and hasn't been prepared for those "advanced" stuff.... Do you take even yourself serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 For reference, all the really good stuff exists under 5Khz. The (broken) HD digital radio codec in use in the US directly encodes 5-8Khz, artificially profiling and reproducing higher frequencies on the receiver side of things. Most people don't even notice. 3.5 is very well suited to music, and harmonics above that can open up the sound considerably more than it really is, considering fundamental frequencies. Effects can sound "dull" without higher frequency components. And that kind of sums up the overall difference in performance. A SID is a music oriented device. POKEY does effects significantly better than it does music at present, given how it's exploited. IMHO, like the display system in Atari computers, the sound system lends itself to abstract games more than anything else. That isn't negative, just part of the flavor people identify with, as they would any machine. Without bending it too far off topic.. SBR (SubBand Replication) is a pile of pooh.. Only greed drives the proliferation of that by the stations to shovel more stations into the available bandwidth.. Although your average eared merkins can barely tell the difference when listening in isolation, but give one of these average ears an ABC Hidden Reference test with a broad suite of samples containing SBR material and they can never unlisten to horrors of what they hear.. Not a fan, and I've personally avoided implementing SBR in all of my psychoacoustic codecs, not just for patent reasons either Anyway, back to the regular buffonary 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) I'll take a moment to agree. Very long rant possible. Actually, I'll strongly agree. Good on you for that. Really my point was 3.5 isn't "phone quality" in the context of this discussion because the harmonics come through, conveying a signal considerably wider than what your average analog phone would convey, and much better than a modern, compressed all to hell phone is capable of. Stuff the emulation I linked through a phone or phone accurate 3-5Khz filter and get back to me on the differences. That 3.5Khz is often misrepresented. Real hardware can perform well too, depending on what / how it's connected to. Edited May 7, 2012 by potatohead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 And it's still ~3.9 kHz Ofcourse what others said already: That's just the range of the base frequency, the harmonics go way higher than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
31336haxx0r Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 My mind brainfarts out "Fourier transformation of square waves" here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 He means purely the fundamental frequency.. The rest of his other post is the usual meaningless & incomprehensible psychobabble.. I was just listening to a Pokey tune on Youtube funnily enough. Well... you didn't understand the direct phrase about the "fundamental frequency" ... But you understand "meaningless & incomprehensible" babble? Then you post a conversion , someone did, using the RMT, and isn't really into knowledge about POKEY... ... despite off all explanations before, where has been explained that RMT doesn't fully support 16 bit and hasn't been prepared for those "advanced" stuff.... Do you take even yourself serious? What a weirdo post *cuckoo* Yes I did. I'm not stupid, not my fault you can't express yourself accurately using English is it? I assumed you were making derogatory comments about SID (wouldn't be the first for you) regarding frequency response stats as hifi equipment is detailed like50hz-19.5khz whilst willy waving the magic words 16bit Pokey mode. 16bit Pokey<ANALOGUE ANYTHING of SID and so it is you who doesn't get the problem. You can simulate a Korg/Moog/Arp or the way SID works but you can't replicate infinite analogue nature and the quirks perfectly even with 1ghz x86, let alone using 1.79mhz machine with totally different architecture 1979 sound chip. Play with your blameless tools @ 1.79mhz all you want, whilst never coming up with any demonstrable evidence for these god like powers of the A8 chipset you bang on about all day. I repair/build analogue synths all the time. I even Ostrich tuned my guitar. Let's cut the insults and get to facts. I've NEVER heard Pokey make a believable electric guitar melody even in 16bit mode or using all 4 8bit voice mode and no software on a 1.79mhz 6502 based computer can overcome the differences in software between SID n Pokey. Let alone do that then replicate the Rambo movie soundtrack, as in the same composers C64 game soundtrack using the same setup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cpEClJQZX0 And now we have established the elephant in the room feel free to fade into the minority that thinks SID is nothing special and say it sounds shit so I can ignore you again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cpEClJQZX0 And now we have established the elephant in the room feel free to fade into the minority that thinks SID is nothing special and say it sounds shit so I can ignore you again Back in those days, I always thought... what the heck... I heared the SID sounds... which filled up 1/4 of what people thought "this is music". But in this little "Chip" world, it actually sounded like music, due to the pitch correctness. The only style I recognized in tunes like this is some "whining" expression. But to hear an electrical Guitar out of this synth sounds, is one thing I had to learn that it was supposed to sound like that. Actually, in that time I even disliked E-Guitar sounds.... It's only some accepting manner, understanding what people like there. Actually (2), I always preferred Synth sounds. Which means, If SID didn't sound like SID, and sound like an E-Guitar, I wouldn't remember "Wizball" and this subtune "good". So, to say this sounds like an E-Guitar is far away from reality. Which sets a pointer to the writer of that nonsense. Edited May 8, 2012 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Done with the limited features of RMT. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYpAFTutYbQ No need to have 200Hz and all 3 voices to put together for some e-guitar like synth. Listen to the sounds of the main voice more close.... they sound like the guitar player is trimming the sounds with the poti. Edited May 8, 2012 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO99 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 All of this is too technical for me! I just thought I'd let you know what I got up to yesterday. To recap, I recently bought an Atari 65XE as a kind of therapy to help get rid of or override my memories of owning a Commodore 64 for 10-11 months. I only shortlisted the Commodore 64 because it had a synthesizer chip instead of a sound chip or tone generator. My attempts at creating any music on the Commodore 64 were limited to one channel of sound in Commodore 64 BASIC, because using more than one channel required Machine Code. This brought it down to the sound level of the Acorn Electron, but it was worse, because I could only get a clear picture OR clear sound through any TV, never BOTH. I got some kind of synthesizer software mail order from Commodore, but the cassette was faulty, so I sent it back for replacement, and all they gave me was a refund! Yesterday, I was reading "Atari BASIC - A Self Teaching Guide" from www.atariarchives.org and learning how to use the SOUND command. In the space of less than one day, I managed to program a much better version of some classic Doctor Who incidental music (i.e. from during a story, not the theme music), than I'd done on the Commodore 64 over I can't remember how long. I did this by setting up a chorus effect by using a variable for the note pitch and adding or subtracting one from this variable to play a slightly higher or lower note on another channel. I then set up some bass accompaniment on another channel, but I could only get it to play one note throughout the whole piece of music, instead of alternating between two notes. I doubt it would be all that complicated for me to read in some separate DATA just for the bass, though. In general, the whole thing sounded quite like Atari music from various games, or a bit like a set of electronic bagpipes. So much for the Commodore 64 and its SID chip! I don't know if I can post a listing here, because this music is Copyright BBC. I don't know how anyone has managed to get more than one channel out of SID. I was a bit disappointed by the lack of different tones in the third parameter of the Atari SOUND command. From what I've read and heard so far, there are only 8 different settings which are 0,2,4,6,8,10,12, and 14, with most of these for sound effects, not for music. I get the impression from reading this topic and some details elsewhere that it's possible to generate a wider variety of tones, but I have no idea how. There's certainly no ENVELOPE command in Atari BASIC. I hope someone on this thread can tell me how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 oh do sod off with the 'Commodore BASIC is crap' rant already - we *know*, we just couldn't care less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I don't know how anyone has managed to get more than one channel out of SID. The short answer is usually machine code, either self written or one of the hundreds of music utilities out there. But despite what you said, multiple channels can indeed be handled by the C64's BASIC and there's some good examples out there of two and three channel tunes - they won't compete with what the machine code drivers can do obviously, but that's equally true of your Atari BASIC routine versus something like the RMT routine. There's certainly no ENVELOPE command in Atari BASIC. I hope someone on this thread can tell me how. It's been over twenty five years since i last looked at Atari BASIC's sound commands (all my own sound effect drivers write directly to the registers in machine code and do their own AD envelope generation) but i'm fairly sure there's no envelope generation...? If that's true, you'll have to do it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 It's been over twenty five years since i last looked at Atari BASIC's sound commands (all my own sound effect drivers write directly to the registers in machine code and do their own AD envelope generation) but i'm fairly sure there's no envelope generation...? If that's true, you'll have to do it yourself. Basic doesn't have it and it has to done in software as POKEY doesn't have the feature either. I remember one issue of Antic had an ADSR add-on for BASIC with an editor. Once you designed your envelopes you could include them in your own programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO99 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Since posting my last message, I've managed to find find this http://www.atariarch...ere/chapt07.php , which sheds some light on the techniques available. It requires lots of POKEs and even Assembly Language, but of course, it's possible to play tunes using 4 channel sound from Atari BASIC, so that proves Atari 8 bitters rule over the Commodore 64! I've only had my Atari 65XE since May 4 and only used an emulator for a few weeks before that, so not bad for a beginner! BTW, I think I'll post my BASIC listing which plays some classic Doctor Who incidental music, then see if the BBC objects. In that case, I'll remove it. Edited May 8, 2012 by SIO99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 so that shits all over the Commodore 64! C64 vs A8 threads tend to degenerate into this here and the mods have become VERY quick to lock them. I've been enjoying the genial and informative technical discussion so please keep such vitriol out of the forum. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gzsfrk Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Heh... interesting... you should read 'On the Edge: the Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore' I'd love to read that book, but $43+shipping is a bit ridiculous. Is it available from anywhere in either PDF or eBook form? Didn't see it on either the Kindle or Nook stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Heh... interesting... you should read 'On the Edge: the Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore' I'd love to read that book, but $43+shipping is a bit ridiculous. Is it available from anywhere in either PDF or eBook form? Didn't see it on either the Kindle or Nook stores. um, amazon has it for $18+shipping.... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'd love to read that book, but $43+shipping is a bit ridiculous. Is it available from anywhere in either PDF or eBook form? Didn't see it on either the Kindle or Nook stores. Oddly, i got it from the UK Kindle store but it doesn't appear to be there any more...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO99 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I've found a link to the incidental music played throughout the story "The Caves of Androzani", which is . This is a 5th Doctor story, where The Doctor is played by Peter Davison. This version of The Doctor doesn't seem to be very well known in the USA, though. Unfortunately, the section of this musical theme which I've programmed doesn't seem to be included in the track! There are parts which are quite like it, but not quite the same. I'll post the sequence of notes which I've done, as well as the BASIC listing in a later message. My music will continue into the regeneration sequence, which IS featured on YouTube, but years ago, I was trying to do the part leading up to that, as well as the regeneration music itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 All of this is too technical for me! I just thought I'd let you know what I got up to yesterday. To recap, I recently bought an Atari 65XE as a kind of therapy to help get rid of or override my memories of owning a Commodore 64 for 10-11 months. I only shortlisted the Commodore 64 because it had a synthesizer chip instead of a sound chip or tone generator. My attempts at creating any music on the Commodore 64 were limited to one channel of sound in Commodore 64 BASIC, because using more than one channel required Machine Code. So maybe try coding in something other than BASIC? Oh - I know. I will throw out all of my PCs because Visual BASIC 6 is shit. Geez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Since posting my last message, I've managed to find find this http://www.atariarch...ere/chapt07.php , which sheds some light on the techniques available. It requires lots of POKEs and even Assembly Language, but of course, it's possible to play tunes using 4 channel sound from Atari BASIC, so that proves Atari 8 bitters rule over the Commodore 64! You could also use Google to find equivalent material for the C64 or find out where SID is mapped into C64 memory and create your own set of POKEs from SID's datasheet to acieve what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) can we get SIO99 a BBC micro? pretty much a framebuffer strapped to a 6502 and the same kid of soundchip as an ST, but with an amazing BASIC. then we'll see how far he gets. And as far as moaning about technology and it 'being difficult' I don't think anyone really has the rights to bitch about recreating the output of the Radiophonic workshop given what they had to do to get those sounds and compose in the first place. Now if nobody minds I'm off to go scrape my carkeys down a pianoframe... Edited May 8, 2012 by sack-c0s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (snicker) Well, at least he's programming! Some of something is better than a lot of nothing. Seems to me, one could make a fairly good tune in BASIC with the DMA turned off, and maybe a simple helper assembly routine, maybe running on the VBI. I'm sure there are routines out there for both computers. A BASIC with some helpers running on interrupts can do some nice stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 10 REM goattracker sound player for the C64 20 SYS 4096 30 SYS 4099 40 FORA=0TO7:NEXT 50 GOTO 30 60 REM well that was easy enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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