Like to get a C64. Couple questions?

[TMR]

So what method do most people use to develop? A modern PC with emulation or on the original machine?

 

Mostly cross assembling on a PC or Mac with testing on an emulator and occasional "metal testing" on a real machine (i've got an Atari 800XL with an SIO2SD and a C64C with a Chameleon sat next to this laptop) but i've chatted with a lot of coders currently writing 8-bit code over the years and, generally speaking, that's how most folks work regardless of platform. There's a few people holding out and using native assemblers or even monitors in some cases but cross developing frees up more RAM for the project that would otherwise be taken up by the assembler or source code and is significantly faster - with the 2MHz C128 tweaks i added to Zeus 64 back in the day it still took a couple of minutes on a reasonably-sized source file whilst the cross assemblers i use now, ACME, Xasm and Pasmo, all assemble much larger projects in a matter of seconds.

Edited May 28, 2012 by TMR

[JohnnyRockets]

Well one question, just brings up another question it seems. I see most programming appears to be done in ASM? But the C64/V20 can do BASIC also, but do most just view BASIC as a nice learning tool?

 

TMR, you also mentioned ("there's the MMC64 and MMC Replay, quite a few variants of the SD2IEC system, the 1541 Ultimate and Ultimate 2, the Turbo Chameleon") quite a few other devices, are these all devices of the past, I have not heard too much of them.

 

 

Also, a few more questions please (sorry I am so thick in the head!)...

 

Am I right to say that most people will write a C64 program on an emulator (which one?), test it on a real C64 (with something like a 1541 Ultimate?) and then distribute it (but how?).

 

 

Thanks a lot!

[TMR]

Well one question, just brings up another question it seems. I see most programming appears to be done in ASM? But the C64/V20 can do BASIC also, but do most just view BASIC as a nice learning tool?

 

Almost all 8-bits have a flavour of BASIC, but the C64 and VIC both use Commodore BASIC V2 which is, quite frankly, crap... you can learn the absolute basics (s'cuse the pun) of either machine with it, but that's all - most people tend to move onto machine code very quickly.

 

TMR, you also mentioned ("there's the MMC64 and MMC Replay, quite a few variants of the SD2IEC system, the 1541 Ultimate and Ultimate 2, the Turbo Chameleon") quite a few other devices, are these all devices of the past, I have not heard too much of them.

 

MMC64 and MMC Replay are both discontinued now so only available second hand from time to time and some of the SD2IEC solutions were small production runs but after that the rest are pretty much current. Jim Brain's uIEC is one of the best implementations of SD2IEC and available to buy, the 1541 Ultimate 2 can be picked up from it's designer Gideon (although there's usually a bit of a wait because it's a one-man operation) and the Turbo Chameleon is available from a couple of small suppliers, i got mine from AmigaKit in the UK.

 

The 1541U2 and Chameleon are the only two that emulate a full disk drive down to the electronics so are more compatible with super fast or quirky loaders and both offer extra features like 16Mb of expansion RAM, cartridge emulation (they can pretend to be several different freezers and utilities, most of the games in CRT format including Easyflash) and the Chameleon takes it a few steps further by having a CPU accellerator that can go past six times stock speed, offering VGA out and some other toys. It's also a full FPGA system, so with a PS/2 keyboard an 5V USB cable connected it can run stand-alone without the C64 and can pretend to be a couple of other machines (right now, a 48K Spectrum with ResiDOS and a MiniMig but more cores are apparently in development). The Chameleon hardware is finalised but the software is still considered to be beta.

 

Am I right to say that most people will write a C64 program on an emulator (which one?)

 

They write programs in a Windows, Linux or Mac based text editor, assemble it with a cross assembler or compiler and then throw it at the emulator for testing - most people use WinVICE since it has very good compatibility.

 

test it on a real C64 (with something like a 1541 Ultimate?)

 

Depends on the person but yes, most of the time. Some folks use a network connection and just stream the assembled file over their LAN.

 

and then distribute it (but how?).

 

Via teh interwebs, either as a PRG file straight off the assembler or in a disk image built by a tool like Dir Master. Get a little web space, put it online and then tell interested parties on sites like the CSDb, Gamebase64 or this forum. S'worth letting me know too since i write the homebrew section of Retro Gamer magazine. =-)

[SoulBlazer]

Reading all this brings back memories, about modern solutions and that stuff. I just use a emulator for my C64 gaming these days, but I recall BITD as a kid how a big deal was made out of these new things that came out late in the C64's life called 'Hard Drive Storage Units' -- what the PC market would eventuly call a Hard Disk. Can't recall right now how much they stored, but they were VERY expensive, several hundred to over a thousand dollars each. I imagine you can still get one for your system, but no clue how well it would run.

[Mirage]

The 1541-Ultimate-II has a USB port where you can plug in any standard USB storage solution.... like a USB external hard drive. It's where I keep most of my stuff since it would take up several large cards otherwise.

[JohnnyRockets]

Well, I'm kind of looking at Jim's device, but I don't fully understand it. Apparently with JiffyDOS installed (somewhere) it plugs right into the back the C64 and you can "mount" it so to speak and access it from the command line of the C64(?)

 

Am I crazy, or is that how it is done?

[JohnnyRockets]

And for that matter, if one get's the 1541-Ultimate-II, is it pretty much "plug it in and go" or is there a fair amount of config involved?

 

 

Thanks by the way guys for all of your expertise!

[Mirage]

Not much config for someone who has experience with the C64. Since you have none (am I right?), and are really swimming in questions, I'm going to suggest you just mess around with an emulator and maybe the standard 64 owner's manual for awhile, just to acquaint yourself with the basics. Otherwise, I think you'd be totally overwhelmed with any of these devices. Just learn how to use the C64 with some disk images until you're comfortable with it, then you'll be prepared for the next steps.

[SSG]

I got lucky. i dont have to buy one since my dad kept his:)

[JohnnyRockets]

Good idea Mirage thanks. Probably jumping the gun a bit to go straight to the hardware devices. I haven't played with writing something for the Vic-20 (never for the C64) for 33 years.

 

Question:

 

Have you (or anyone else on the thread who cares to comment) ever used this "emulator" http://www.c64forever.com/ ???

 

I bought it about a year ago to play around with. Would it be good fit for this situation? Or would it be better to use a different emulator to learn from?

 

 

JR

[Mirage]

Good idea Mirage thanks. Probably jumping the gun a bit to go straight to the hardware devices. I haven't played with writing something for the Vic-20 (never for the C64) for 33 years.

 

Question:

 

Have you (or anyone else on the thread who cares to comment) ever used this "emulator" http://www.c64forever.com/ ???

 

I bought it about a year ago to play around with. Would it be good fit for this situation? Or would it be better to use a different emulator to learn from?

 

 

JR

 

It's just the VICE emulator with a front end and extras. It's a good setup though, for a beginner. I have the AmigaForever package. Since you already have it, yes, it would be fine. VICE is a good emulator, relatively easy to use. I'm not sure if you can update VICE in that and have it still work, but if you can, I'd recommend doing that if it's not running the current version. If you can't, I'm sure it's still fine.

[JohnnyRockets]

Okay, cool, I'll play with it a bit before I make any purchases.

 

 

Thanks everyone!

 

 

JR

[TMR]

To answer a few previous questions: JiffyDOS is a pair of ROM chips that replace one in the C64 and another in the drive to improve loading times and add some commands to make using disks easier from BASIC; it's not needed for a uIEC but a lot of people find it helpful (personally i'd use an Action Replay cartridge) because there's on on-screen interface to select disk images like the 1541U2 and Chameleon have. The 1541 Ultimate 2 doesn't take much configuration, but you will need a working knowledge of the C64 to use the virtual drive past the "just loading a game" stage so take Mirage's advice of having a delve around under emulation first - i'd go for VICE over even the current version of Forever because the front end is meant to keep the messy business of mounting disk images and manually loading from them away from the user.