Did Atari get the idea for 'APX' from software distro's used by CBM/Apple

[carmel_andrews]

like it says on the tin, did Atari get the idea for the APX software distribution concept from similar sounding software distribution systems commodore and Apple already had inplace for their respective systems, namely the CBM pet and Apple II

 

Since according to some threads here on the Apple II, it seems to mention that Apple had a concept very similar to APX, in that Apple dealers or stockists had a 'library' of several hundred user written programs that Apple II users could purchase from them (the stockists/dealers that is)...However the threads concerned didn't say what geographical markets this apple II software distro. sys was available...I am assuming it was US only, since i didn't come accross this Apple 2 service in the UK

 

Likewise, according to the commodore history book 'home computer wars', commodore UK had a very similar concept to APX, that i guess was started up subsequent to the CBM pets's release, and like the Apple II service, you could buy this user written Pet software only from CBM dealers/stockists, unfortunately i don't know how many programs made it into this Commodore Pet software service, additionally according to the same book, tramiel promoted the them head of commodore UK (christopher spencer) purely on the results spencer was getting in the UK, i.e between 60-80 p/c of the UK market (with the Pet system) and also wanting to replicate Spencers software distribution idea in the US market

Edited May 30, 2012 by carmel_andrews

[SIO99]

I don't know about this, but it seems obvious to me that Commodore copied Atari hardware in lots of ways, including having an Atari compatible monitor port, Atari joystick ports, sprites, and having the same text screen default colours, although that's as far as it went. Commodore 64 BASIC was like a 1970's BASIC in the 1980's, but Atari BASIC was like a 1980's BASIC that came out in the 1970's.

[charliecron]

No... read the Wikipedia article on APX.

[desiv]

I would doubt it..

Just seems that this type of thing was common place for virtually all systems at the time.

And the wikipedia article on APX was a great read.

Especialy if you're interested in NP optimization.

 

This seemed more applicable tho..

http://en.wikipedia....rogram_Exchange

:-)

 

desiv

Edited June 1, 2012 by desiv

[JamesD]

I believe this sort of thing started at the user group level back in the hobby days (pre TRS-80/PET/Apple) where groups shared software with each other for free or the cost of a printout, paper tape, or cassette.

It probably progressed to group newsletters, then turned into software listings in magazines, then magazines took better submissions to the magazine and sold them mailorder.

The first example that comes to mind started before the Atari 8 bit came out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoftSide

 

I know some dealers carried similar software that was free to copy "if you buy the blank disks from us".

 

Tandy actually let you order 3rd party products directly through Radio Shack stores and it turned into a reasonably successful venture for them, though I think they could have done better if the service had been promoted better.

[a8isa1]

I believe this sort of thing started at the user group level back in the hobby days (pre TRS-80/PET/Apple) where groups shared software with each other for free or the cost of a printout, paper tape, or cassette.

ink they could have done better if the service had been promoted better.

Quite true.

 

I remember first seeing a DECUS (Digital Equipment Corporation Users' Society) catalog back in high school (mid '70s *cough*) in the computer club.

 

The DECUS catalog wasn't a commercial venture as with APX but the offerings were contributed by 3rd party programmers who wanted to share their creations, a blend of utilities and games. The cost was minimal, media and shipping, or close to it.

 

see below

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECUS

[Retro Rogue]

I don't know about this, but it seems obvious to me that Commodore copied Atari hardware in lots of ways, including having an Atari compatible monitor port, Atari joystick ports, sprites,

 

None of those are "Atari's" ports, the monitor and joystick ports were industry standard connectors. Sprites were also wide spread already in coin-op and in home consoles.

 

 

 

 

The DECUS catalog wasn't a commercial venture as with APX

 

I would beg to differ. It wasn't the same type of commercial venture as APX, but nonetheless was a fully funded venture meant to enhance the selling of DEC minis. It had commercial intent.

[SIO99]

I don't know about this, but it seems obvious to me that Commodore copied Atari hardware in lots of ways, including having an Atari compatible monitor port, Atari joystick ports, sprites,

 

None of those are "Atari's" ports, the monitor and joystick ports were industry standard connectors. Sprites were also wide spread already in coin-op and in home consoles.

 

 

 

The DECUS catalog wasn't a commercial venture as with APX

 

I would beg to differ. It wasn't the same type of commercial venture as APX, but nonetheless was a fully funded venture meant to enhance the selling of DEC minis. It had commercial intent.

 

 

 

Really?! Which computers used those ports before Atari, then? After extensive research, I'm only aware of 3 ready made mass produced computers on the market before Atari. These were the TRS80, the Apple II, and the Commodore PET, which had the same BASIC as the Commodore 64. Also, lots of or even most coin op and home consoles were by Atari.

[sloopy]

I don't know about this, but it seems obvious to me that Commodore copied Atari hardware in lots of ways, including having an Atari compatible monitor port, Atari joystick ports, sprites,

 

None of those are "Atari's" ports, the monitor and joystick ports were industry standard connectors. Sprites were also wide spread already in coin-op and in home consoles.

 

 

 

The DECUS catalog wasn't a commercial venture as with APX

 

I would beg to differ. It wasn't the same type of commercial venture as APX, but nonetheless was a fully funded venture meant to enhance the selling of DEC minis. It had commercial intent.

 

 

 

Really?! Which computers used those ports before Atari, then? After extensive research, I'm only aware of 3 ready made mass produced computers on the market before Atari. These were the TRS80, the Apple II, and the Commodore PET, which had the same BASIC as the Commodore 64. Also, lots of or even most coin op and home consoles were by Atari.

 

they were 'industry standard connectors', not 'standard joystick' or 'standard video' connectors...

 

and they were used by larger computers and other electronics before the micros's ...

 

as for the A/V jack, I dont know how you can say the C64 copied the 800, as the original C64 used a odd/uncommon DIN-8 variant at first that was male 'backward' compatible with the DIN-5 used in the 800, and the use of pin 2 as ground was (and is) pretty common for large diameter DIN's...

 

It is in one book on the early C= years, the 2600 was the basis for the joystick conn and pinout, not to mention this was a logical conn to use as DE-9's were common and plentiful.

 

sloopy.

[+wood_jl]

I don't know about this, but it seems obvious to me that Commodore copied Atari hardware in lots of ways, including having an Atari compatible monitor port, Atari joystick ports, sprites,

 

None of those are "Atari's" ports, the monitor and joystick ports were industry standard connectors. Sprites were also wide spread already in coin-op and in home consoles.

 

True, the connectors were not Atari's, but making them pinout-compatible does appear to imply a bit of copying. The TI 99/4a (and whatever else) uses the same connector but not joystick (although the monitor pinout is the same as Atari) and the Sega Master System (and Genesis model 1 and whatever else) uses the same monitor connector but not the same pinout.

 

That is, unless I am mistaken (could be). I make no authoritative claim here, or anywhere.

[+wood_jl]

I dont know how you can say the C64 copied the 800, as the original C64 used a odd/uncommon DIN-8 variant at first that was male 'backward' compatible with the DIN-5 used in the 800, and the use of pin 2 as ground was (and is) pretty common for large diameter DIN's...

 

Unless I am mistaken (again) the early ("original") C64 used the 5-pin connector (Atari/Vic-20/TI-994a) compatible with no split chroma/luma (composite). I thought the later C64 added chroma/luma and moved to the 8-pin connector with these connections, being backward compatible with the older 5-pin composite cables.

 

As I lack expertise, I make no claims as to such, of course....

Edited June 4, 2012 by wood_jl

[sloopy]

I dont know how you can say the C64 copied the 800, as the original C64 used a odd/uncommon DIN-8 variant at first that was male 'backward' compatible with the DIN-5 used in the 800, and the use of pin 2 as ground was (and is) pretty common for large diameter DIN's...

 

Unless I am mistaken (again) the early ("original") C64 used the 5-pin connector (Atari/Vic-20/TI-994a) compatible with no split chroma/luma (composite). I thought the later C64 added chroma/luma and moved to the 8-pin connector with these connections, being backward compatible with the older 5-pin composite cables.

 

As I lack expertise, I make no claims as to such, of course....

 

The first C64's used the DIN-5 as they had them on hand for the VIC-20. Then went to the funky 280* DIN-8. probably used that conn as they probably got a dirt cheap close out on them(sorta like the Molex used for SIO)... This allowed Vic-20 composite cables to be used, but also allowed Chroma/Luma to be used also...

 

sloopy.

[Retro Rogue]

Really?! Which computers used those ports before Atari, then? After extensive research, I'm only aware of 3 ready made mass produced computers on the market before Atari. These were the TRS80, the Apple II, and the Commodore PET, which had the same BASIC as the Commodore 64. Also, lots of or even most coin op and home consoles were by Atari.

 

they were 'industry standard connectors', not 'standard joystick' or 'standard video' connectors...

 

and they were used by larger computers and other electronics before the micros's ...

 

as for the A/V jack, I dont know how you can say the C64 copied the 800, as the original C64 used a odd/uncommon DIN-8 variant at first that was male 'backward' compatible with the DIN-5 used in the 800, and the use of pin 2 as ground was (and is) pretty common for large diameter DIN's...

 

It is in one book on the early C= years, the 2600 was the basis for the joystick conn and pinout, not to mention this was a logical conn to use as DE-9's were common and plentiful.

 

sloopy.

 

Yes, as Sloopy mentions, these are industry standard connectors called DE-9s or DB-9s. They're simply serial connectors and were in use in mainframes, minis and other electronics equipment long before Atari decided to also use it for their joystick connector. Even the original Xerox Alto used it for it's mouse port. They (and the entire D-sub class of connectors) were originally designed by ITT Canon in the early 1950s. I wouldn't call it extensive research if it was limited to personal computers, this information is all pretty readily available.