Commodore 64 or 64c?

[+JohnnyRockets]

Commodore 64 or 64c?

 

What is the diff?

 

 

Thx.

[BillyHW]

C64 is a better abbreviation for the Commodore 64.

 

The Commodore 64C was the white revision model.

 

They are virtually identical internally, though some of the audio geeks might tell you that the revised SID chip is not as pure as the original.

 

In the VICE emulator you can choose between different revisions of the C64 and SID chip.

[Mr SQL]

The 64 has the older 6581 SID JohhnyRockets; phatter sound IMO.

LOL! Just saw your post as I wrote this BillyHW

 

You can't emulate the analougue filters; I like the emulation too but listen to a real SID and you can really hear the difference.

[Rybags]

There were more revisions than just the case and Sid version. The motherboard is significantly different and component count reduced in later models.

 

Later models used 2 64k x 4 bit Rams rather than 8 64k x 1 bit. There's also an improved PLA which includes the colour Ram onboard which was previously a seperate 1k x 4 bit IC.

 

PLA = Programmable Logic Array. C64 equivalent to an MMU, it is involved in every type of memory access and decides where the data is routed depending on banking settings determined by CPU port, CIA and cartridge lines.

[TMR]

There were more revisions than just the case and Sid version. The motherboard is significantly different and component count reduced in later models.

 

And the effect of all these changes are fairly significant; the SID gained an extra, unofficial "hybrid" waveform which is beloved by people doing club/dance styles of music on the C64 but forfeited quite a bit of the filtering and the "volume click" used by games like Mega Apocalypse or Turbo Outrun to play samples. And the changes to the rest of the board seem to be what "broke" some of the scroll routines that (ab)used unofficial features of the VIC-II so there's games like the Fred's Back series, the aborted Touchlight (canned by the publishers because it wouldn't run on some machines) and countless demos that hiccup or more often fail entirely (although this problem is becoming more widespread with age and, whilst it's being investigated, nobody's entirely sure what's causing it just yet).

 

There's at least one batch of C64Cs fitted with the original board but they're pretty rare (and some out there'll be where users have swapped old boards into new cases since the mounting points are consistent). If i were to recommend one over the other, it'd usually be the older model even though i'm using two unmodified C64Cs as my workhorses right now.

Edited June 7, 2012 by TMR

[+JohnnyRockets]

Thanks everyone! Sounds like for my needs, I'll be good with either model.

 

 

You are all very knowledgible, thanks!

 

 

JR

[+20ohm20]

I bought a 64C to match my 1581.

[Seob]

Maybe size is a factor? They are almost as big but the c64 is higher then the c64c. While the c6c has a larger footprint then the c64. For weight the c64c is lighter.

 

C64: 40.4 (W) x 21.6 (D) x 7.5 (H) cm / 1820 g

C64c: 41.4 (W) x 24.3 (D) x 5.9 (H) cm / 1710 g

Edited June 7, 2012 by Seob

[Hatta]

C128. ;D

 

Really though, if you're going to be coding, why not code for the C128? You get a faster CPU to play with, two distinct video outputs, and there's not much C128 software out there so anything you do is going to be appreciated.

[+JohnnyRockets]

Hatta,

 

Is that what you program for? Cool!

[Arkhan]

I have a 64C w/ a 6581 SID in it.

 

It is the best choice.

 

It's also rare/expensive.

[Dave Farquhar]

Here's a page that shows how to identify which SID is in any given 64. Opening the case isn't necessary.

 

http://ilesj.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/how-to-identify-c64-and-sid-model/

 

On an online auction, you can guess based on the keyboard and usually get it right. If you can actually examine the machine in person, you can tell by looking inside the cartridge port.

[TMR]

I have a 64C w/ a 6581 SID in it.

 

It is the best choice.

 

It's also rare/expensive.

 

It's only rare/expensive if you buy it that way... =-)

 

[Mr SQL]

Lots of cool posts on this thread! I prefer dasm because it does the basics very well, but regardless of weather I am writing code for current systems or retro coding for legacy systems I listen to the HVSC (a collection of 40,000 SID tunes) on my c64 with this SID player:

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=101736

[+JohnnyRockets]

You listen to them like music? I mean like you would MP3's ? Sweet!

[Arkhan]

I have a 64C w/ a 6581 SID in it.

 

It is the best choice.

 

It's also rare/expensive.

 

It's only rare/expensive if you buy it that way... =-)

 

Well, I got mine for 50$ CIB off Craigslist. but, I do remember people peeing themselves trying to get them cheap, lol.

 

The 8580 is annoying for music making, IMO, so I try avoiding it.

[Mr SQL]

You listen to them like music? I mean like you would MP3's ? Sweet!

Yes, I encourage you to download the HVSC collection, it's fantastic; it will easily fit on an SD card if you have a uiec.

 

Many people dismiss the SID as just a synth but in fact it is a subtractive analougue synth, wonderful like a Tigger which gives it that unique sound quality so inspirational for coding!

[Mr SQL]

I have a 64C w/ a 6581 SID in it.

 

It is the best choice.

 

It's also rare/expensive.

 

It's only rare/expensive if you buy it that way... =-)

 

Well, I got mine for 50$ CIB off Craigslist. but, I do remember people peeing themselves trying to get them cheap, lol.

 

The 8580 is annoying for music making, IMO, so I try avoiding it.

I agree Arkhan, the 6581 has a better sound. But equally annoying is that into the 90's and beyond a number of excellent European composers began creating compositions that actually sound a little better on an 8580 having been designed for it because the composer owned the 64c!

[TMR]

It's only rare/expensive if you buy it that way... =-)

 

Well, I got mine for 50$ CIB off Craigslist. but, I do remember people peeing themselves trying to get them cheap, lol.

 

i think i paid the equivalent of about $10 for mine with a box of games... although remembering which C64C is which is getting harder as i get older! The converted machine i did myself, it took about half an hour but i never got around to fixing the power LED.

 

The 8580 is annoying for music making, IMO, so I try avoiding it.

 

It's got pluses and minuses really; not being able to play 4-bit samples at a decent volume is a pain in the bum (not a problem with the recent sample-via-SID engines used in demos like Vicious SID) and the filters don't have the same flexibility but on the plus side it's consistent with the filtering whilst there can apparently be anything up to 20% variance between batches of 6581 and it does add a new "combined" waveform to the mix (which combines triangle and pulse if memory serves) which the Polish composers adore.

 

Oh, and about downloading the HVSC and listening to it whilst coding - yup, same here even if they "pollute" it by putting my "stuff" in there! =-)

[cimerians]

This is some good info. Need to check my own C64C and see if I can spot the fuse.

 

My older brown C64 has one or two keys that don't work anymore. Might open that one up and check it out.

[TMR]

This is some good info. Need to check my own C64C and see if I can spot the fuse.

 

Y'can't miss it on either revision of the board, it's about a 15mm away from the cartridge port shielding.

 

My older brown C64 has one or two keys that don't work anymore. Might open that one up and check it out.

 

If it's just a couple of keys that's probably down to dirty contacts in the keyboard itself; you'll have to unsolder the connections to the shift lock (the number of C64s i have where, as a teenager who couldn't solder, i just cut those connections... [shudder!]) to get the assembly open but then you can remove all the little screws, clean the contacts on the board and the base of each key and throw it back together.

[cimerians]

This is some good info. Need to check my own C64C and see if I can spot the fuse.

 

Y'can't miss it on either revision of the board, it's about a 15mm away from the cartridge port shielding.

 

My older brown C64 has one or two keys that don't work anymore. Might open that one up and check it out.

 

If it's just a couple of keys that's probably down to dirty contacts in the keyboard itself; you'll have to unsolder the connections to the shift lock (the number of C64s i have where, as a teenager who couldn't solder, i just cut those connections... [shudder!]) to get the assembly open but then you can remove all the little screws, clean the contacts on the board and the base of each key and throw it back together.

 

Thanks for the info! I saw a few youtubes and lemon64 pics with the case off so I know what to do.

 

Anyone know if the sound is noticeably different with the different SID chips? or is it only in certain games?

[TMR]

Anyone know if the sound is noticeably different with the different SID chips? or is it only in certain games?

 

If the filters aren't turned on they all sound pretty much the same, some people say they can hear a "warmth" to the 6581 that isn't there on the 8580 but i've never noticed it personally. The only exception is if the music uses the undocumented $5x waveform (combined pulse and triangle) that only works on the 8580, i forget what happens exactly with a 6581 but i think it defaults to just using pulse instead.

 

The filtering on a 6581-equipped machine will vary depending on which 6581 is present; there's probably a far more accurate way of making the distinction based on part numbers, but from my experience the 1982 and 1984 SIDs have noticeably heavier filtering than the 1983 or 1985. The 8580 is consistent between years and has the lightest touch of the lot and the difference between it and the heavy end of the scale really is significant.

 

And as i said previously, there's a difference with sampled sounds, the original 4-bit routines used by people like Martin Galway and Rob Hubbard all rely on a voltage leak that wasn't meant to happen and was repaired during the revision - the samples do still play on an 8580-equipped machine but the volume is significantly lower.