treasure of tarmin 'sequel' of sorts on xbox live indie channel

[Rev]

Well, at CGE 2K12, I hope one of you guys can talk to Keith about it.

 

Good point! Now I have to go just to plead with him to allow these guys to make new sequel games!!!

 

 

I am doubtful anything will come of it. But who knows, right? I have a feeling he wont be easy to convince. Intellivision Productions is too bust porting the games to 3DS...now that would be cool.

[Akito01]

Wow, where to begin.

 

First let me say how thankful I am to find some positive words regarding Ghosts of Tarr-Minos. Critical reception so far has been pretty tough (NeoGAF put it in with the worst of the Indie channel for May releases), but I did finally find a French website that had some nice things to say, and now coming back to AtariAge and finding some other nice words has made me feel better about the experience as well.

 

I'm also a little surprised that there is any controversy, especially given how small Xbox Indie games really are. Of course, this doesn't exclude XNA games from the same scrutiny as other platforms, and there have been titles that have been rejected from release because they hewed too closely to Tetris, for example. This is also a platform where the most successful titles bear more than a passing resemblance to Minecraft –which Notch has already remarked on and given his blessing, since Minecraft itself was inspired by previous works (just as Tarmin was inspired by Wizardry and Rogue)

 

What can I say to clear the air? Yes, it clearly was designed to be evocative of the Intellivision visual style (and given how much the Atari visual style has been appropriated by the indie scene in recent years, I'd hope it was about time). Yes, it is certainly meant to be evocative of Treasures of Tarmin. But it is worth pointing out that at no point does the game explicitly state that it is a sequel to Tarmin, an Intellivision game, nor is it running on any kind of Intellivision OS. Every graphical element was created from scratch, as was every bit of code.

 

I would find difficult to imagine that the existence of Tarr-Minos does any harm to Intellivision properties. I’d gladly have bought Tarmin if it appeared on GameRoom, and should I do get any kind of official takedown notice, the game will immediately be removed from the market. There certainly isn’t much money to be made on the Indie channel –should it follow the same sales track as my first XNA game, ‘LCD Dungeon System’, I will consider myself lucky if I manage to make $150-$200 on it.

 

I don’t think anyone creating games on this level does so with mercenary intent. They are all love letters to our particular passions. I can and have bought cartridges here on AtariAge (I LOVE Dungeon), and I think creating those cartridge games for original hardware is a special dedication. Yes, you could play Halo 2600 for free in a browser, but there is a reason why those cartridge versions were in such high demand. I doubt very much that a $1 indie game is going to quench the desire of anyone who wants to plug a brand new created game into their vintage Intellivision system, or enjoy the versions of the original games as published on Intellvision Lives.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Akito01

[townparkradio]

Wow, where to begin.

 

First let me say how thankful I am to find some positive words regarding Ghosts of Tarr-Minos. Critical reception so far has been pretty tough (NeoGAF put it in with the worst of the Indie channel for May releases), but I did finally find a French website that had some nice things to say, and now coming back to AtariAge and finding some other nice words has made me feel better about the experience as well.

 

I'm also a little surprised that there is any controversy, especially given how small Xbox Indie games really are. Of course, this doesn't exclude XNA games from the same scrutiny as other platforms, and there have been titles that have been rejected from release because they hewed too closely to Tetris, for example. This is also a platform where the most successful titles bear more than a passing resemblance to Minecraft –which Notch has already remarked on and given his blessing, since Minecraft itself was inspired by previous works (just as Tarmin was inspired by Wizardry and Rogue)

 

What can I say to clear the air? Yes, it clearly was designed to be evocative of the Intellivision visual style (and given how much the Atari visual style has been appropriated by the indie scene in recent years, I'd hope it was about time). Yes, it is certainly meant to be evocative of Treasures of Tarmin. But it is worth pointing out that at no point does the game explicitly state that it is a sequel to Tarmin, an Intellivision game, nor is it running on any kind of Intellivision OS. Every graphical element was created from scratch, as was every bit of code.

 

I would find difficult to imagine that the existence of Tarr-Minos does any harm to Intellivision properties. I’d gladly have bought Tarmin if it appeared on GameRoom, and should I do get any kind of official takedown notice, the game will immediately be removed from the market. There certainly isn’t much money to be made on the Indie channel –should it follow the same sales track as my first XNA game, ‘LCD Dungeon System’, I will consider myself lucky if I manage to make $150-$200 on it.

 

I don’t think anyone creating games on this level does so with mercenary intent. They are all love letters to our particular passions. I can and have bought cartridges here on AtariAge (I LOVE Dungeon), and I think creating those cartridge games for original hardware is a special dedication. Yes, you could play Halo 2600 for free in a browser, but there is a reason why those cartridge versions were in such high demand. I doubt very much that a $1 indie game is going to quench the desire of anyone who wants to plug a brand new created game into their vintage Intellivision system, or enjoy the versions of the original games as published on Intellvision Lives.

 

Is it easily port-able to PC? I live entirely on solar power, and my laptop draws 65 watts max. My 360 draws 95 watts MINIMUM, and requires a TV to be running.. so I haven't used it in over a year; but i am eager to throw my money at you regardless.

[townparkradio]

Oh and I have 80 unused Ms points, they went to your game even if I never get to actually play it.

[Godzilla]

I bought it too, I don't have a problem with what I see as an homage more than anything. It certainly doesn't affect my past and continued future support of inty carts (I own many inty homebrew carts and buy as many as I can find!) Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, I see it as adding to or helping inty awareness.

[Carl Mueller Jr]

What it comes down to is that some of us are trying to establish good relations with Intellivision Productions and, well… NOT get sued. We want to go on making more games in the future. I suspect if you do get a takedown notice, it will sour your desire to create more "labors of love" in the future.

And those of us who are being patient and attempting to communicate with Keith had made exactly 0 dollars in the process, so no matter how little you feel you're being paid, it does in fact seem unfair to us that you're being paid at all.

[Rev]

How many years is enough to wait is the real question. Keith is just about running the Intellivision name into the ground as far as im concerned, If it was not for the compilations releases (intellivision lives) it would of been a disaster. They own alot of properties, Why not some modern console updates on xbox live or Wii or something. How about a wiiware update of nightstalker or something...it isnt that hard to come up with this stuff.

[jaybird3rd]

How many years is enough to wait is the real question. Keith is just about running the Intellivision name into the ground as far as im concerned, If it was not for the compilations releases (intellivision lives) it would of been a disaster. They own alot of properties, Why not some modern console updates on xbox live or Wii or something. How about a wiiware update of nightstalker or something...it isnt that hard to come up with this stuff.

There was some talk of that back in ~2005, when Realtime Associates was supposedly working on 3D treatments of Night Stalker and B17 Bomber. Of course, so many of the other things they were talking about around that time—such as the reproductions of rare games on real Intellivision cartridges with printed boxes and manuals, and a new version of Intellivision Lives! for PC/Mac—haven't come to fruition either. I know that they poured a lot of their limited resources into the development and publication of Intellivision Lives! DS. If it was not financially successful, that might explain the dearth of new Intellivision product beyond t-shirts and the iPhone/iPad stuff.

 

To me, this seems to support the idea of "loosening the reigns" on some of those properties in some way. Here's one idea: allow the fans to produce derivative (and possibly even co-branded) works, in exchange for a royalty or some other arrangement which would give Intellivision Productions final approval and participation in whatever revenues are generated, without having to fund the development fully out of their own pockets. It can only increase the number and diversity of Intellivision-related products, which will build brand awareness and add value to what they're doing.

[Rev]

Jay, Maybe you should tell them all this!

[jaybird3rd]

Jay, Maybe you should tell them all this!

Well, I can't imagine that it hasn't occured to them already, and there may well be valid reasons against doing it that I'm not fully appreciating. Besides, I don't exactly know their opinion of a certain "unauthorized" Aquarius cartridge that I released last year, so I'm not sure I'm the best guy to pitch the idea. (I did correspond with them about it prior to the release, and they were very supportive of the idea, but they stopped responding to my inquiries.)

 

That said, I'd leap at the chance to produce Aquarius versions of one or two underappreciated Intellivision games, such as Mind Strike, if I could get permission to do it. Granted, there's not going to be a lot of money in that, but I'd love to do it anyway. I think a revamped version of Mind Strike would work well as a standalone iPad release, too. So there are clearly more possibilities for the Intellivision properties out there than Intellivision Productions has the resources to explore on their own, and I'm sure there are other fans like me who would love to help expand those frontiers.

[roberto]

That's awesome ! I will have to get that !

 

And cmart, you don't have an Xbox ??

 

Hard to believe !

 

Nope. Wii and PS3. Modern gaming isn't really my thing I guess, I'm more of a retro guy. Lol!

 

Who would have ever imagined that!

[roberto]

Look no further than the AA store, where they are selling Space Invaders, Pac Man, and Mario Bros. http://www.atariage....oduct_list&c=39

 

Did they get permission from Namco, and Nintendo? hardly...Does anyone have permission from Nintendo to release any DK games? No

 

So why bother with Keith...it doesnt make sense.

 

Right.... Carl, how did you manage to be allowed by Nintendo to release a new Donkey Kong game for the Inty? Was it easy? Or you wrote them asking for permission, they didn't reply and then applied the "silence is assent" rule?

I know it's not easy for small/indie devs to start a discussion with such big companies so I'm sincerely curious to know how things went since I know you are a very serious guy who plans all his steps properly and I'm sure you wouldn't have risked releasing such a game if Nintendo objected...

 

Cheers,

Roberto

[Carl Mueller Jr]

Look no further than the AA store, where they are selling Space Invaders, Pac Man, and Mario Bros. http://www.atariage....oduct_list&c=39

 

Did they get permission from Namco, and Nintendo? hardly...Does anyone have permission from Nintendo to release any DK games? No

 

So why bother with Keith...it doesnt make sense.

 

Right.... Carl, how did you manage to be allowed by Nintendo to release a new Donkey Kong game for the Inty? Was it easy? Or you wrote them asking for permission, they didn't reply and then applied the "silence is assent" rule?

I know it's not easy for small/indie devs to start a discussion with such big companies so I'm sincerely curious to know how things went since I know you are a very serious guy who plans all his steps properly and I'm sure you wouldn't have risked releasing such a game if Nintendo objected...

 

Cheers,

Roberto

 

Firstly, Nintendo is not Intellivision Productions. They are aware of D2K, as we have sent the game to their headquarters in both America and Japan. I also traveled to Kyoto, Japan to meet with Miyamoto Shigeru.

What have you done? Where is your game?

Put some time, money, and sacrifice into a project and then you'll have earned your right to point fingers.

[Akito01]

Thanks to everyone who has purchased the game. To answer the question, it wouldn’t be super difficult to port to PC. Probably the only thing that would need to be done is replace the Xbox controller specific calls with keyboard inputs, and removing and replacing some of the other Xbox specific elements. I guess it would just be an issue of distribution and/or hosting? A lot of Xbox indie developers are looking to jump ship to PC and other platforms, but getting games onto places like Steam is a genuine challenge.

 

For myself, I have Sony’s PlaystationMobile platform next in my sights, since the Vita is one of the platforms it supports, and the setup is very very similar to XNA. PlaystationMobile doesn’t officially go live until the fall, though, so it is probably too early to really be talking about that. It is also intended for Android devices, so I may not be able to target the Vita specifically as a platform, which means no quick and easy copy-paste ports. A follow up to ‘LCD Dungeon System’ is more likely to be my first PSMobile game.

 

There is a subtext to the ongoing debate that makes me think there is more than just property rights issues in play, and I’m not super eager to go jumping into that briar patch. I will say that I too wish more could be and should be done with Intellivision properties, and there are many opportunities begging for Intellivision Productions to exploit. Sadly, I really have no way of knowing or influencing what Keith Robinson thinks or does. Sometimes you just have to steam ahead and damn the torpedoes.

 

I don’t expect anything bad to happen because of Tarr-Minos, but if it does? I already have a third game going through peer review right now, and a fourth ready to follow immediately after. ‘Superdimension Iliad’ is an action-platformer that takes the player through the first decade and a half of gaming history –from monochrome dots-and-dashes to the full color 16-bit era (the ‘SmartyVision’ level has some of my favorite platforming challenges, but the rocks falling from the night sky will probably elicit a stronger response). ‘Stellar Fortress’ is an adaptation and mutation of a familiar arcade classic that will hopefully fill the gap for those unable to purchase the upcoming 2600 homebrew cartridge.

[Fushek]

Look no further than the AA store, where they are selling Space Invaders, Pac Man, and Mario Bros. http://www.atariage....oduct_list&c=39

 

Did they get permission from Namco, and Nintendo? hardly...Does anyone have permission from Nintendo to release any DK games? No

 

So why bother with Keith...it doesnt make sense.

 

Right.... Carl, how did you manage to be allowed by Nintendo to release a new Donkey Kong game for the Inty? Was it easy? Or you wrote them asking for permission, they didn't reply and then applied the "silence is assent" rule?

I know it's not easy for small/indie devs to start a discussion with such big companies so I'm sincerely curious to know how things went since I know you are a very serious guy who plans all his steps properly and I'm sure you wouldn't have risked releasing such a game if Nintendo objected...

 

Cheers,

Roberto

 

Firstly, Nintendo is not Intellivision Productions. They are aware of D2K, as we have sent the game to their headquarters in both America and Japan. I also traveled to Kyoto, Japan to meet with Miyamoto Shigeru.

What have you done? Where is your game?

Put some time, money, and sacrifice into a project and then you'll have earned your right to point fingers.

 

Whoa ... What fingers did he point? He sincerely asked a legit question ... one that I was wondering when reading this thread as well. Perhaps instead of attacking him, if you could explain how and what you were able to accomplish with the company perhaps it would be easier for others to follow in your footsteps of going through the proper channels to get things done.

 

And, I've checked out the website on his signature before and remembered that he has written a couple of books on retro gaming. As someone who has written a book as well (unpublished), he has certainly put some time, money and sacrifice into a project or two. http://www.ProgramAndPlay.com

[roberto]

Firstly, Nintendo is not Intellivision Productions. They are aware of D2K, as we have sent the game to their headquarters in both America and Japan. I also traveled to Kyoto, Japan to meet with Miyamoto Shigeru.

What have you done? Where is your game?

Put some time, money, and sacrifice into a project and then you'll have earned your right to point fingers.

 

??

Really, I was not pointing any fingers at all. I'm very sorry I gave the wrong impression and my curiosity was apparently misunderstood for some sort of accusation?

I was just curious since sometimes such companies seem difficult to approach and may be overprotective of their old IPs so I think it's truly refreshing instead to hear Nintendo smoothly supported your new DK games and you managed to get a constructive relationship with them.

 

Personally, I tried to contact Nintendo years ago for porting a game prototype I worked on but I never got a reply. I did work with people who worked shoulder to shoulder with Miyamoto-san later in my career but I never had a chance to go back to that specific game concept or deal directly with Nintendo. Maybe in future?

 

Take care and keep writing for the Inty: u rock!

Edited June 13, 2012 by roberto

[townparkradio]

Thanks to everyone who has purchased the game. To answer the question, it wouldn’t be super difficult to port to PC. Probably the only thing that would need to be done is replace the Xbox controller specific calls with keyboard inputs, and removing and replacing some of the other Xbox specific elements. I guess it would just be an issue of distribution and/or hosting? A lot of Xbox indie developers are looking to jump ship to PC and other platforms, but getting games onto places like Steam is a genuine challenge.

 

For myself, I have Sony’s PlaystationMobile platform next in my sights, since the Vita is one of the platforms it supports, and the setup is very very similar to XNA. PlaystationMobile doesn’t officially go live until the fall, though, so it is probably too early to really be talking about that. It is also intended for Android devices, so I may not be able to target the Vita specifically as a platform, which means no quick and easy copy-paste ports. A follow up to ‘LCD Dungeon System’ is more likely to be my first PSMobile game.

 

There is a subtext to the ongoing debate that makes me think there is more than just property rights issues in play, and I’m not super eager to go jumping into that briar patch. I will say that I too wish more could be and should be done with Intellivision properties, and there are many opportunities begging for Intellivision Productions to exploit. Sadly, I really have no way of knowing or influencing what Keith Robinson thinks or does. Sometimes you just have to steam ahead and damn the torpedoes.

 

I don’t expect anything bad to happen because of Tarr-Minos, but if it does? I already have a third game going through peer review right now, and a fourth ready to follow immediately after. ‘Superdimension Iliad’ is an action-platformer that takes the player through the first decade and a half of gaming history –from monochrome dots-and-dashes to the full color 16-bit era (the ‘SmartyVision’ level has some of my favorite platforming challenges, but the rocks falling from the night sky will probably elicit a stronger response). ‘Stellar Fortress’ is an adaptation and mutation of a familiar arcade classic that will hopefully fill the gap for those unable to purchase the upcoming 2600 homebrew cartridge.

 

Contact the Humble Bundle persons. They allow Indie authors to use their platform to distribute games. Same with GOG.com. If you do port to PC, leave 360 controller as an option as well, please

[townparkradio]

Desura is also very good about it as well.

[townparkradio]

As for getting in trouble with Intellivision productions? I wouldn't worry about it. Unless your game steals direct assets form the original... and it doesn't look like it does, or the same maps, it would be foolish to push the lawsuit. See the Pac Man vs Jawbreaker/KC Munchkin cases in the 80's. Unless, of course, you used the word "Intellivision" anywhere. Remember Giana Sisters? that game was an obvious Super Mario clone, but it was different enough. They got zinged because they used SMB in it's advertising extensively.

[Carl Mueller Jr]

Firstly, Nintendo is not Intellivision Productions. They are aware of D2K, as we have sent the game to their headquarters in both America and Japan. I also traveled to Kyoto, Japan to meet with Miyamoto Shigeru.

What have you done? Where is your game?

Put some time, money, and sacrifice into a project and then you'll have earned your right to point fingers.

 

??

Really, I was not pointing any fingers at all. I'm very sorry I gave the wrong impression and my curiosity was apparently misunderstood for some sort of accusation?

I was just curious since sometimes such companies seem difficult to approach and may be overprotective of their old IPs so I think it's truly refreshing instead to hear Nintendo smoothly supported your new DK games and you managed to get a constructive relationship with them.

 

Personally, I tried to contact Nintendo years ago for porting a game prototype I worked on but I never got a reply. I did work with people who worked shoulder to shoulder with Miyamoto-san later in my career but I never had a chance to go back to that specific game concept or deal directly with Nintendo. Maybe in future?

 

Take care and keep writing for the Inty: u rock!

 

I apologize as well. I misread your message as dripping with ironic sarcasm, and I can now see that you are just asking a legitimate question. Things have been tough lately, and I have been very frustrated trying to make people to get "it" (which I sincerely doubt most people would, even if it were given to them in a large bag marked "IT").

Anyway, don't expect much by negotiating with Nintendo. Simply sending an e-mail requesting for permission is not going to work. I feel I did everything possible to communicate with them, including showing up at the gates in Kyoto, Japan. I did have a long discussion (in Japanese) with an associate of Miyamoto, who explained to me Nintendo's stance on outside ideas and that the only way to make them known to Nintendo (or to Miyamoto) is by first working there (and even then, it can be tricky). He said that even he is not allowed to discuss new game ideas with Miyamoto; it's a really mysterious and secretive company culture, apparently.

I think we took it to the absolute limits that reality could possibly afford us. We are hoping to have more luck with other companies, should we decide to license new arcade ports. Right now, I think our lives would be much simpler just to focus on original titles.

As to the author of this game, I mean no disrespect – the game looks well done and entertaining. I would encourage them, however, to at least try to start a dialogue with Intellivision Productions before something unpleasant happens.

Peace. Back to coding! :-)

Carl

[Rev]

I truly believe that any of these big licence holders/companies do not give a crap about some guy in his 'living room' cranking out a hundred or two 'homebrew' games. If they were to figure the hours and material to release a game they would quickly realize there is not really money being made. ASt not enough for them to warrent releasing carts themselves.

[Numan]

Having spent several hours on this games, I can heartily recommend it to fans of the original. This is a loving homage to Tarmin, and I would hope the original creators would enjoy this version.

 

The good bits were the intermission, the changing wall colors, having all the weapons and armor back, seeing the armor on display, the little bit of story, and the manual.

 

The bad bits would be the lack of food and the multiple spelling errors. I also would have had your stats and food refreshed at the intermission.

 

Luck is a huge part of the game, the reusable weapons break and break often. Many a game was quit because of a lack of weapons and food. Food only restores 2 war points and 1 spiritual point, and there are only six to one pickup. You can go several levels without food.

 

How I won on medium was picking up a couple potions that jack up your stats, hitting a number of gates to get the spiritual HP's up, and picking and choosing my battles. Despite that, I was in the teens in the levels low on food and out of reusable weapons; I had platinum armor though. I ended up grabbing two platinum crossbows and stomped my way to the end. Good times.

 

I cannot stress enough how every owner of the original should check this game out.

 

I would suggest this game's creator make a game called Happy Land and include one and two player modes.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Numan

[S1500]

I just want to buy Ghosts of Tarr-Mino.. because of Carl's comments on here. Haters gonna hate.

[Akito01]

I'm not one to turn down a sale, but I really hate the idea of turning a difference of opinons (which I think at this point is pretty much settled) into anything personal. I have mad respect for anyone who can work with orignial hardware the way Carl does.

 

For what it is worth, I did actually try to get into touch with both Intellivision Productions and the author of the freely available 'Intellect' font very early in Tarr-Mino's development. I had created a backup font to use in case I got an explicit denial, but I never got a word back from anyone and took that as implied consent. There are no ripped assets in Tarr-Minos and no use of the Intellivison name.

 

It's funny to talk about this game in detail for me now simply because, from my perspective, it is old news. The game was completed in mid-February, then had a couple of issues discovered in peer review that had to be fixed, then had to wait even longer as 'Dream Build Play' kept a lot of people from reviewing games for release. In those three-four months I'd completed two other games and am currently working on a fifth.

 

I know, at least mechanically, a lot of what went into Tarr-Minos was a reaction to what I thought was lacking in my first XNA game, 'LCD Dungeon System'. In that game nothing apart from the combat dice rolls was random. This meant it was a quick experience that wasn't worth revisiting. The randomization in Tarr-Minos wasn't just a reflection how Tarmin worked, but to address that specific issue with LCDDS. To me, it felt fun to never know exactly how any one game of Tarr-Minos would go, and I enjoyed the challenge. I think once something is out in the wild and you start getting feedback from other people is when you start second guessing your design decisions.

 

It is also a bummer when you discover those flaws you didn't catch before release, and that people are having experiences that didn't correspond to your expectations. Apart from the French (who also showed the biggest love for LCD Dungeon System –I have no explanation), most websites that pay attention to the Xbox Indie channel have expressed disappointment if not hatred for the game (NeoGAF am cry). Critical reaction isn’t something you can do much about, though. Sometimes, to pull a quote from Penny Arcade, you just have to look at them and say, ‘it’s not for you!’

[Rev]

I'm not one to turn down a sale, but I really hate the idea of turning a difference of opinons (which I think at this point is pretty much settled) into anything personal. I have mad respect for anyone who can work with orignial hardware the way Carl does.

 

For what it is worth, I did actually try to get into touch with both Intellivision Productions and the author of the freely available 'Intellect' font very early in Tarr-Mino's development. I had created a backup font to use in case I got an explicit denial, but I never got a word back from anyone and took that as implied consent. There are no ripped assets in Tarr-Minos and no use of the Intellivison name.

 

It's funny to talk about this game in detail for me now simply because, from my perspective, it is old news. The game was completed in mid-February, then had a couple of issues discovered in peer review that had to be fixed, then had to wait even longer as 'Dream Build Play' kept a lot of people from reviewing games for release. In those three-four months I'd completed two other games and am currently working on a fifth.

 

I know, at least mechanically, a lot of what went into Tarr-Minos was a reaction to what I thought was lacking in my first XNA game, 'LCD Dungeon System'. In that game nothing apart from the combat dice rolls was random. This meant it was a quick experience that wasn't worth revisiting. The randomization in Tarr-Minos wasn't just a reflection how Tarmin worked, but to address that specific issue with LCDDS. To me, it felt fun to never know exactly how any one game of Tarr-Minos would go, and I enjoyed the challenge. I think once something is out in the wild and you start getting feedback from other people is when you start second guessing your design decisions.

 

It is also a bummer when you discover those flaws you didn't catch before release, and that people are having experiences that didn't correspond to your expectations. Apart from the French (who also showed the biggest love for LCD Dungeon System –I have no explanation), most websites that pay attention to the Xbox Indie channel have expressed disappointment if not hatred for the game (NeoGAF am cry). Critical reaction isn’t something you can do much about, though. Sometimes, to pull a quote from Penny Arcade, you just have to look at them and say, ‘it’s not for you!’

 

Just program games to satisfy you and you should never be disapointed. Cause you know you can never please everyone...