Work In Progress: "Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest"

[Trebor]

I played the latest ROM of this game tonight as I have not touched the game at all since my last round of screenshot postings...Which I believe was the end of July.

 

It's been well over two and half months and I was curious if the difficulty perhaps was turned up a notch or two since I last played.

 

While it was challenging...it was definitely nowhere near impossible or miserable. I continued a total of three times and beat the first witch on our first encounter. Screen captures tell the tale of when I died and the witches defeat (Unfortunately with the witch's defeat I was literally almost on top of her, got the jewel and sprites cleared before I could capture).

 

I played from 10:00 PM through 10:21 PM - This includes the pausing and taking screenshots, So let's say somewhere between 15-20 minutes, I was able to get through all 8 Rounds of Level 1 with 3 continues and full life left on the third continue.

 

I'm not just saying this either, but I am tired and a little sloppy with the controls as a result. I've been up since 4:30 AM, worked all day, ran errands and have a pup and (almost) 2 year old son. No, I'm not that great at games but some things I can see that could possibly be some issues for people:

 

1) Controller. I believe I may have mentioned this somewhere in this thread but the controller will be a huge factor in how easy or difficult this game is for you due to the sheer numerous times you are pressing buttons continuously. The stock 7800 controller is not the most comfortable for this kind of usage. A modified 7800 controller by Yurkie, or perhaps a modified NES Advantage by the.golden.axe will go a long way.

 

2) What emulator are people trying? Under ProSystem I can't get Bentley to run at all. It's probably something on my end configuration wise, but I use and prefer MESSanyway, Bentely works and responds beautifully. If you are playing this through ProSystem and all Bentley does is walk or only slightly better, I would be frustrated too. Bentley should be able to run super-fast which makes movement and jumps a lot easier.

 

3) You cannot "speed run" this game. I know, especially in the beginning levels of Super Mario Bros., some may be used to run through the entire level jumping and hitting a fireball as needed and can pretty much breeze through early levels. This game requires you to stop frequently, understand the various enemies' movement patterns and attacks and respond accordingly.

 

Like I stated - 15-20 minutes - 3 continues - Level 1 beat, and it's almost like I'm playing it for the first time as I haven't touched the game in many weeks. I go back to my earlier idea of perhaps an easier setting for those who rather it is an easier run, but the current difficulty, IMHO is the right challenge. I don't want to breeze through this game and being able to do what I did tonight just proves it to me, that any easier and a little more rest and concentration on my part and it will almost go down that path.

 

Edited October 12, 2012 by Trebor

[108 Stars]

Played it again, this time with savestates instead of continues; and it was easier like that. I am not sure how the power ups work, but you can get different colored rocks, and now that I did not lose my rocks when dying I could get through the first 8 rounds okay; the four-hit Zombies would now day at one or so for example.

 

So, difficulty seems okay if you don't screw up; but unlike Trebor I think that it is still absolutely higher than in most jump' n runs. If Trebor finds that easy, he is a pretty damn good player, because this is absolutely quite a bit more difficult than other jump' n runs. Wish I had his skills. :/

 

At times I just did not seem to figure out hit detection; when the very first Zombie appeared in round 6 I threw rocks at him but they went through him; was this a bug, an emulation error or do enemies take different amount of hits in different rounds?

 

I am not sure what to make of this, and what the real difference between my first and second playthrough was; but I definitely was surprised to now kill enemies so easily when the Zombies took 4 hits yesterday. The power ups are my only explanation.

 

If the power-ups for the rocks make such a difference maybe they should be scattered more frequently.

 

The witch is extremely easy because you just have to stay on the left, she never flew to the left edge of the screen, so I could stand there safely and throw rocks at her when she was near.

 

 

So, here are two parts I made screenshots of, I wanted to point them out:

 

 

Right here the platforms blend in with the background a bit so that it seems like there was walkable grass growing over the pits, you know what I mean? Just a minor thing, but I had to test and did walk over it XD

 

 

And here we have a misplaced rock.

 

I tried to record a video of the gameplay scenes where something strange imo happened, only to learn that the recording option does not record actual video, but replays your actions in real time.^^

 

BTW, I am using The emulator a7800x on Xbox, v5 because I coud not find the latest build.

Edited October 12, 2012 by 108 Stars

[Shannon]

BTW, I am using The emulator a7800x on Xbox, v5 because I coud not find the latest build.

You can find version 6 at www.emuxtras.net or you could download it from xbins.

[Trebor]

So, difficulty seems okay if you don't screw up; but unlike Trebor I think that it is still absolutely higher than in most jump' n runs. If Trebor finds that easy, he is a pretty damn good player, because this is absolutely quite a bit more difficult than other jump' n runs. Wish I had his skills. :

 

Never said I find it easy, I said it is challenging. My exact words: "While it was challenging...it was definitely nowhere near impossible or miserable". It is more challenging than say Super Mario Bros. where especially in early worlds/levels many can just speed run with hitting the jumps and fireballs as needed with hardly ever slowing down. You cannot do that with this game at its current level of difficulty and glad this game is set that way. I don't want to see this turn into a simple "speed run" side-scroller with little challenge.

 

Also, noticing you mentioned playing this on an XBOX. If it is with an XBOX controller as well, that could definitely be part of the problem for you. The thumb pad is not that good on the XBOX, and if using the analog sticks that would make it even worse.

 

Believe me my skills are not that good. For instance, while I do know a bunch of people who can fly through Super Mario Bros., I am nowhere near doing any sort of speed run. I often have to slow down often and stop. A speed run for me results in a quick death and end of game. Regardless, I welcome and love the challenge that Bentley presents.

 

Just to clarify, I am not against there being an easier setting, just as long as we don't lose the option of this default/current difficulty.

[jwierer]

 

 

And here we have a misplaced rock.

 

I don't think the rock is misplaced. I think the grass below it just makes it appear that way. Per the level layout, it's where Bob intended it to be be.

 

-Jeff

[gambler172]

Hi Guys

We should stop the discussion about the difficulty.Yes,the game is heavy,but not impossible.

If it is too easy,some guys would say......GOOD GAME,but too easy.So i think it is only BOB,who is responsible for difficulty.And if BOB thinks,it is OK,everybody should accept.....

BOB,you know that it is impossible to make it right to everybody......

BENTLEY is really great......do not care about some guys,who always find something

 

greetings Walter

[Atarifever]

Hi Guys

We should stop the discussion about the difficulty.Yes,the game is heavy,but not impossible.

If it is too easy,some guys would say......GOOD GAME,but too easy.So i think it is only BOB,who is responsible for difficulty.And if BOB thinks,it is OK,everybody should accept.....

BOB,you know that it is impossible to make it right to everybody......

BENTLEY is really great......do not care about some guys,who always find something

 

greetings Walter

Now, I don't think this is quite fair. I'll finish it no matter how hard it is. It's a freaking Bentley Bear game for the 7800. And I'm in favour of high difficulty. And I think Bob is the greatest homebrewer alive.

 

However, the way I always saw these threads was as the QA for homebrews. Basically, Bob and the other homebrewers don't have access to game testers, which atari would have had in the 80s and modern game studios have today. They have access to peers in the homebrew forums, where they can show the games to a certain group of, generally, more techy people.

 

They can then come here when they want and post stuff to get feedback from the larger group on playability, bugs, the appetite for a physical release, etc.

 

So, if someone here thinks the game is too hard, I think they should say so. If not, why say anything? If you don't want to let Bob (and other homebrewers) know what you think of the game as it is, why bother talking to them at all. If you love it, tell them so. If not, tell them that too (provided you're not a jerk). All you're doing is telling them how you think they can make the game they're making even better.

 

Indie developers solicit this kind of feedback all the time. I don't think Bob or any other homebrewer is working on a project with any less merit than any other indie developer. I imagine, as a result, like every other genre of indie development, homebrewers want honest feedback when they post something publicly.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think so.

[108 Stars]

That's correct, if Bob did not want feedback, he would not have started this thread, always offering betas for everyone to try. That's the whole point of this.

 

Professional games have a load of betatesters for this kind of stuff, and Bob has to rely on the community for it; I think it would be absolutely the wrong thing to not say your thoughts on it ere, as long as it is constructive.

 

 

You can find version 6 at www.emuxtras.net or you could download it from xbins.

 

Thanks! I knew about xbins, but it's some IRC channel or so afaik, and I am not into that stuff; I did download emulators that way last year, but I would need a tutorial to do it again.^^

Edited October 12, 2012 by 108 Stars

[atarian63]

All I know it is a great project and as always am thankful to Bob for doing it! I wanna real cart version I can buy if possible!! Too bad atari never did this,just makes sense

[fernando marrin]

As much as i love BB, and i Really do

 

kind of missing old 2011 ,

when we got lots of new Atari type simple arcade games

instead of just one Nes like platformer

[+HatNJ]

As much as i love BB, and i Really do

 

kind of missing old 2011 ,

when we got lots of new Atari type simple arcade games

instead of just one Nes like one

 

Then start writing them

[fernando marrin]

Then start writing them

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

didn't want to sound rude, Bob is THE reason i still use my 7800

[Jaynz]

Then start writing them

 

That's not really fair, though. It wasn't like Fernando was being mean-spirited, he was just stating that he missed the horde of new releases for the 7800, and didn't feel that Bently Bear was worth missing out on the numerous arcade-game conversions we had a couple of years ago. Of course, that said, he chose to say that right when another batch of them showed up in the store this week. I admit that, personally, there's a lot of games in Bob's queue that I'm far more interested in than Bently Bear (like Gorf, for instance)... but I'll get it too when I can!

 

As for 'writing it yourself', ASM is not exactly the stuff of a light-hobby. I'm an experienced developer that's done ASM work, and I'm getting wide-eyed looking at the ASM from years' past, myself. (Of course, it doesn't help that real life has interfered heavily the past few weeks, but there ya go.)

[fernando marrin]

and

That's not really fair, though. It wasn't like Fernando was being mean-spirited, he was just stating that he missed the horde of new releases for the 7800, and didn't feel that Bently Bear was worth missing out on the numerous arcade-game conversions we had a couple of years ago. Of course, that said, he chose to say that right when another batch of them showed up in the store this week. I admit that, personally, there's a lot of games in Bob's queue that I'm far more interested in than Bently Bear (like Gorf, for instance)... but I'll get it too when I can!

 

As for 'writing it yourself', ASM is not exactly the stuff of a light-hobby. I'm an experienced developer that's done ASM work, and I'm getting wide-eyed looking at the ASM from years' past, myself. (Of course, it doesn't help that real life has interfered heavily the past few weeks, but there ya go.)

 

 

and i enjoy them all on the Cuttle Cart 2,

so surelly more is better for me !

[DracIsBack]

when we got lots of new Atari type simple arcade games

instead of just one Nes like platformer

 

He's made others.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/204178-new-atari-2600-and-7800-games-available/

 

Some of us have been waiting for a good platformer for a while!

Edited October 19, 2012 by DracIsBack

[108 Stars]

I think that's the whole point; the 7800 has enjoyed smaller arcade games for quite a while now, there is no shortage of those. But something like Bentley was really missing, a kind of game not typically associated with the 7800.

 

I'm sure there will be more fast arcade style games coming, but Bentley helps the system to become attractive in areas where it was not yet successful. Just look at it, I am a prime example; I never cared for the 7800, I wouldn't play more than a handful of its official releases... yet Bentley has gotten me interested.

[fernando marrin]

He's made others.

 

http://www.atariage....ames-available/

 

Some of us have been waiting for a good platformer for a while!

 

me too !!

 

though i don't think i would trade half a dozen top notch Atari arcade games for it

[fernando marrin]

I think that's the whole point; the 7800 has enjoyed smaller arcade games for quite a while now, there is no shortage of those. But something like Bentley was really missing, a kind of game not typically associated with the 7800.

 

I'm sure there will be more fast arcade style games coming, but Bentley helps the system to become attractive in areas where it was not yet successful. Just look at it, I am a prime example; I never cared for the 7800, I wouldn't play more than a handful of its official releases... yet Bentley has gotten me interested.

 

you have a point

[Trebor]

Miss seeing updates on this, Bob...Hope everything is ok.

Here's a couple of new grabs with the improved palette (NTSC color generated) under MESS (0.142u2):

 

 

[Stun Runner 87]

Miss seeing updates on this, Bob...Hope everything is ok.

Here's a couple of new grabs with the improved palette (NTSC color generated) under MESS (0.142u2):

 

 

I can only use one word to describe this and that word is , BEAUTIFUL......I havnt played the rom yet because I will wait until this is available on cart so I can play it the old school way in the actual 7800 console.....But what I have read and seen on this thread, Bently Bear will be the best game ever for the 7800....PACMANPLUS(BOB) IS THE MAN...

[sh3-rg]

Just a few thoughts on game design and teamwork that came to mind reading the last few pages of this thread, not specific to BB as such.

 

I think the last few pages of this thread have highlighted the difficulties with creating your own games from scratch, particularly when it comes to the design, balancing and creativity that is essential for a game to succeed vs the much more straightforward recreation/reimagining/porting/etc. of existing games to your favourite platform.

 

Some programmers are great at analysing a game and reproducing or approximating the experience on their favourite machine, that's great because it allows system fans to experience games others get to play. Unfortunately, not many great programmers are also genius game designers. That's OK - nobody expects homebrewers to be super human like this - some are more creative and less technical, some the other way around, but basically it's rare for the two skills to be present in one person, and when they are, there's much more chance of them being off doing this for a living rather than a hobby

 

Genuine feedback on a project such as BB is essential, it's all part of the teamwork that a larger original production requires. When you go beyond a simple one-man recreation, it's no longer just a matter of taking assets from A and B and reproducing gameplay C, it's much more involved - creativity comes much more into play and then the real possibilities open up. I haven't been able to follow the BB story so closely so I'm not sure how the team making it work as I've just seen bits here and there as the weeks went by, but from what I saw - Good programmer - check. Good gfxer - check. Good testers who can get their thoughts over clearly and concisely but do so constructively - check. (the real trick here though is to do so without hurting the feelings of the programmer (always important!)). Making a game from scratch, though, you need game design craft from someone who knows their stuff. It's not like reproducing an existing game you know and love, it takes creativity and design flair and that's another discipline as important as any other. Clearly, making it up as you go along and throwing stuff in because it worked well in game X or like games on system Y, then seeing what comes out... that's not usually the best recipe for success (and I'm not suggesting that's what has happened here at all, just saying that it is so generally and as a rule to further explain). TBH I'm not sure where this project stands on this front, I don't know how the actual game design has been worked on and has come about, just that the design/balancing/difficulty issues that cropped up suggest there's maybe an area that could do with some attention sooner rather than later, as many of us know from experience, going too far on a project that has early unresolved issues can be a real demotivator when it comes to trying to put things right and sometimes a project-killer.

 

Then again it could all just be people using dodgy controllers

[mmervine]

Bob is taking a break from game development. Hopefully, he will be back after he takes care of a few more important things...

[Stun Runner 87]

Bob is taking a break from game development. Hopefully, he will be back after he takes care of a few more important things...

I don't blame him...I'm sure he has a lot of other business to attend to in his personal life. He should just continue to take his time and take it slow....even if it takes years....Bobs a good man and has already done so much good for the Atarian community for years...He is appreciated by us all of course......He deserves a break and I'm sure when he has extra time, he will get it done...No rush is necessary as a wise man once said,"good things come to those who wait"....

[gambler172]

Miss seeing updates on this, Bob...Hope everything is ok.

Here's a couple of new grabs with the improved palette (NTSC color generated) under MESS (0.142u2):

 

 

 

HI Guys

Maybe BOB just needs a break....He has also a job.And you all know,that BENTLEY is a really big project.....

So just wait....i am sure BOB will be back soon.

greetings Walter

[PacManPlus]

Hi guys:

 

As always, thanks for the feedback. I would like to address some points brought up:

 

Played it again, this time with savestates instead of continues; and it was easier like that. I am not sure how the power ups work, but you can get different colored rocks, and now that I did not lose my rocks when dying I could get through the first 8 rounds okay; the four-hit Zombies would now day at one or so for example.

The White Jewels are the low value weapon. They will give 1 hit point and take out most of the easier enemies (they take 1 hit point to kill - i.e. tree, skeleton)

The Red Jewels are the high value weapon. They will give 2 hit points and take out most of the mid-level enemies (they take 2 hit points to kill - i.e. worm, bee swarm)

The Green Jewels are special. They will double the hit points of whatever weapon you currently own. So, if you have a Red Jewel and encounter a Green Jewel, you will have a weapon worth 4 hit points. You definitely don't want to die at this point

That isn't the maximum though - if you live long enough to encounter *another* Green Jewel, you will have a weapon worth 8 hit points, and can kill just about anything (except the Witch Boss) with one hit. The Witch Boss would take two hits.

 

So, difficulty seems okay if you don't screw up; but unlike Trebor I think that it is still absolutely higher than in most jump' n runs. If Trebor finds that easy, he is a pretty damn good player, because this is absolutely quite a bit more difficult than other jump' n runs. Wish I had his skills. :/

I intended to make this a little more difficult as most people at this point are used to side scrollers as they've been around since '85. Plus you have unlimited continues.

 

At times I just did not seem to figure out hit detection; when the very first Zombie appeared in round 6 I threw rocks at him but they went through him; was this a bug, an emulation error or do enemies take different amount of hits in different rounds?

Different enemies have different hit points. The zombie is a special case as it only registers 'head' shots (like in every zombie movie only a head shot will kill it)

I think I have the zombie set at 3 hit points.

 

I am not sure what to make of this, and what the real difference between my first and second playthrough was; but I definitely was surprised to now kill enemies so easily when the Zombies took 4 hits yesterday. The power ups are my only explanation. If the power-ups for the rocks make such a difference maybe they should be scattered more frequently.

That is correct. Being that I was trying to make a cross between SMB and Wonderboy, I did a similar 'rule' regarding weapons as I did with Wonderboy. Once you die, you have to get your weapon back. You have to travel a small bit to get your weapon but it appears pretty much right afterward. You'll die without a weapon. That being said, if the Jewels need to be scattered in a better way, please give a general idea on how they should be distributed.

 

The witch is extremely easy because you just have to stay on the left, she never flew to the left edge of the screen, so I could stand there safely and throw rocks at her when she was near.

Yep, like SMB, even Bowser doesn't go all of the way to the left (at least when I played SMB). If I made her go all the way to the left the player would die. Every time. Also, I wanted the first encounter to be somewhat easy to get familiar with her. Each encounter the player has with the Boss Witch they will find she does something different that makes her a little more difficult to defeat. Plus you have an amount of urgency as by the time you reach her, you won't have much 'life' left before you die.

 

So, here are two parts I made screenshots of, I wanted to point them out:

Right here the platforms blend in with the background a bit so that it seems like there was walkable grass growing over the pits, you know what I mean? Just a minor thing, but I had to test and did walk over it XD

The brown "ground" is also a pretty big clue

 

I was trying to do a few things here: try to make a combination of a few types of side scroller (i.e. SMB, Wonderboy) and have a few 'different' things that people aren't used to 20 times over in this genre of a game. I did, however, make a few changes to the last version (the source code I posted has it) that hopefully should make the game somewhat easier in the beginning.

 

The placement of enemies/objects can be easily changed.

I will be assisting tep392 (he mentioned that he would run any gameplay changes by me - but I'm sure whatever he decides will be *very* cool)

 

Thanks guys

Bob