7800 - A Pre- or Post-Crash Console?

[Metal Ghost]

Ok, so I offically sold my 5200 today. Sad to see her go. But really it was the only sensible thing to do: I don't have the room or time to devote to another system, and she's been packed away for a couple of years now getting no love.

 

So continuing on with my initiative of spending more time with a select few systems, the oldest system I now have is my 7800. I love my 7800....had one as a kid after I had saved enough paper route money for one. But I think I had always thought about it as a post-crash system. I mean....I didn't get my original one until maybe '88 or so. And this kind of bummed me out....I no longer had a pre-crash console in my house.

 

Now this goes beyond when the system was designed....I get that the NES had been sold for years in Japan prior to the '85-'86 release here in the States. But, it will always be a post-crash system to me. Chalk my opinion up to the impact it had on rebuilding the games industry, to the types of games that ended up being released for the system, plus at least where I live it was actually not relased until after '84, but it's post-crash, period.

 

BUT....the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that the 7800 is much more of a pre-crash console than a post one. Sure, it didn't have an impactful launch until what, '86? But the games library always leaned much more towards golden age arcade classics than towards those types of games that the NES and SMS started bringing into the mainstream. And hey, it did technically get a launch way back in '84, and I think that means something. And finally, maybe it's only a tangential connection, but it is VCS compatible. What a symbolic connection to pre-crash that is!

 

So that's my question to you guys: is the 7800 a pre or post crash console?

[Jaynz]

The 7800 had the rather bizzare distinction of being BOTH a pre and post crash console, due to how it was released. It was designed as a 'super 2600', which is effectively is. It came out originally near the end of the 5200's run right before the crash hit and it was effectively shelved until the NES came out.

[+swlovinist]

Post crash console in my opinion.

[shadow460]

With just the 7800 library in mind, I say definitely post crash. True, it was built around solid pre crash hits, but the feel of its library clearly says post crash to me. Add in the backward compatibility, though, and the line gets fuzzy real quick.

[TwinChargers]

I'm going to say pre-crash given that it was made and ready to go before the crash took place. It is one of the few that was produced before the crash and had post-crash games made for it though.

[Metal Ghost]

With just the 7800 library in mind, I say definitely post crash. True, it was built around solid pre crash hits, but the feel of its library clearly says post crash to me. Add in the backward compatibility, though, and the line gets fuzzy real quick.

 

I'm curious....what about it's library 'says post crash'? When I think of post crash, my gut reaction is side scrolling platformers, JRPGs, Action RPGs, and later on fighting games. None of which are particularly a 7800 strong suit. Unfortunately I don't have unit sales information. But if I use a cart's AA Rarity has a proxy for sales, and then look at all of the '1' rarities, I'm presented with a who's-who of pre-crash gaming or those types of games (highlighted):

• Asteroids
  
• Ballblazer
  
• Barnyard Blaster
  
• Centipede
  
• Dig Dug
  
• Donkey Kong
  
• Donkey Kong Junior
  
• Galaga
  
• Hat Trick
  
• Jinks
  
• Joust
  
• Ms. Pac-Man
  
• One-on-One Basketball
  
• Pole Position II
  
• Realsports Baseball
  
• Tower Toppler
  
• Xevious
  

[jaybird3rd]

One vote for "pre-crash" here. The 7800 was developed before the crash, and was ready for shipment just as it occurred, and the entire design of the system reflects a pre-crash sensibility and mentality. It was intended to deliver better home versions of arcade hits, the same ones that Atari had already done a few times on the 2600/5200/800 systems, as well as backward compatibility with the 2600 and some computer-like functionality with the planned keyboard and laserdisc interfaces. Post-crash systems like the NES and Sega Master System reflect a more Japanese sensibility and have a much different character than the 7800 and other (mostly American) pre-crash systems. The 7800 got some "post-crash-style" games later on, but that was Atari's attempt to make the system fit into a post-crash world. It's still a pre-crash system at heart.

[LidLikesIntellivision]

It has a quantic undetermined state of either pre or pos crash.

Both are true.

[Jaynz]

If I had to go by the game library, I would say that it was a SOLID pre-crash system (with a bunch of the classic arcade games) that lingered on into the early crash years. The last of the generation, as it were. It only had a paultry few games that were similar in design to the SMS and NES.

[DracIsBack]

It was designed as a 'super 2600', which is effectively is.

 

Not really. It has a totally different GPU and way of making graphics that has nothing to do with how the 2600 did things. To me, that's not much different than the NES being called a "super 2600".

 

They both have:

 

1. An improved processor (6502)

2. More memory

3. Ability to have larger memory games and larger banks

4. Dual button controllers

5. Entirely different GPUs than TIA (PPU, MARIA)

 

Yes, I know that TIA is used for sound for backwards compatibility and cost reasons, but the 7800 is effectively two systems in one motherboard.

 

As for pre or post, it's a post-crash to me. Very simply, most of its games were developed and released post-crash. Once GCC stopped making the initial games, it had a lot of computer ports. And yes, it had some awfully NES like games of varying quality. Ala:

 

Scrapyard Dog, Commando, Ikari Warriors, Midnight Mutants, Alien Brigade, Jinks, Dark Chambers, Basketbrawl, Double Dragon, Rampage, Xenophobe, Kung Fu Master, Super Skateboarding, Mat Mania Challenge etc.

 

And it also had a lot of computer ports, again of varying quality.

Edited September 7, 2012 by DracIsBack

[+swlovinist]

It was designed as a 'super 2600', which is effectively is.

 

Not really. It has a totally different GPU and way of making graphics that has nothing to do with how the 2600 did things. To me, that's not much different than the NES being called a "super 2600".

 

They both have:

 

1. An improved processor (6502)

2. More memory

3. Ability to have larger memory games and larger banks

4. Dual button controllers

5. Entirely different GPUs than TIA (PPU, MARIA)

 

Yes, I know that TIA is used for sound for backwards compatibility and cost reasons, but the 7800 is effectively two systems in one motherboard.

 

As for pre or post, it's a post-crash to me. Very simply, most of its games were developed and released post-crash. Once GCC stopped making the initial games, it had a lot of computer ports. And yes, it had some awfully NES like games of varying quality. Ala:

 

Scrapyard Dog, Commando, Ikari Warriors, Midnight Mutants, Alien Brigade, Jinks, Dark Chambers, Basketbrawl, Double Dragon, Rampage, Xenophobe, Kung Fu Master, Super Skateboarding, Mat Mania Challenge etc.

 

And it also had a lot of computer ports, again of varying quality.

 

This is pretty much how I came to the conclusion of a post crash system.

[high voltage]

Post crash, almost a year after Famicom. End of story. Or is the Famicom also a pre-crash console (released in 83)

Edited September 7, 2012 by high voltage

[high voltage]

4th gen actually just as Famicom

[Metal Ghost]

It was designed as a 'super 2600', which is effectively is.

 

As for pre or post, it's a post-crash to me. Very simply, most of its games were developed and released post-crash. Once GCC stopped making the initial games, it had a lot of computer ports. And yes, it had some awfully NES like games of varying quality. Ala:

 

Scrapyard Dog, Commando, Ikari Warriors, Midnight Mutants, Alien Brigade, Jinks, Dark Chambers, Basketbrawl, Double Dragon, Rampage, Xenophobe, Kung Fu Master, Super Skateboarding, Mat Mania Challenge etc.

 

And it also had a lot of computer ports, again of varying quality.

 

I don't know. Again, it had those games, but just like NES has arcade games. But the vast majority of games sold for the system (again, admittedly using the non-scientific data of AA cart rarity as a proxy for sales) are the original arcade games I highlighted above.

 

And am I wrong to think that the 7800 was released, to the public, back in '84? However limited, the general public could get a 7800 before the crash happened. You couldn't do that for the NES (maybe as the Famicom, in Japan, but not NES outside of Japan). Doesn't that define it as pre-crash?

Edited September 7, 2012 by Metal Ghost

[DracIsBack]

And am I wrong to think that the 7800 was released, to the public, back in '84? However limited, the general public could get a 7800 before the crash happened. You couldn't do that for the NES (maybe as the Famicom, in Japan, but not NES outside of Japan). Doesn't that define it as pre-crash?

 

It was briefly test marketed in a few cities pre-crash. The NES was wide release in Japan pre-crash.

[onthinice]

Pre-Crash. It was developed before the crash. Plus it somehow gives the console WOW factor. If this was the best Atari could do after seeing the Nes and Sega Master systems. Then somehow post-crash just does not seem as exciting a system to me.

[Retro Rogue]

Couple of problems with the views expressed here:

• The crash was from December '82 through '84 (usually seen as crescendoing with Atari's implosion in July of '84.) What most are terming "pre-crash" is actually during the crash. The bulk of it's titles were licensed and programmed post-crash.
  
• The 7800 was both a during and post crash system. It was released in limited test market quantities in New York in June and July of '84 and re-introduced in January of '86.
  
• The Famicom is a during crash system, the NES a post.
  
• The comment about the 7800's game library showing pre-crash isn't accurate. Most of the highlighted games on the above list were the '84 launch titles. The bulk of the 7800's games were developed post crash, many from licenses of computer only games
  

Pre-Crash. It was developed before the crash. Plus it somehow gives the console WOW factor. If this was the best Atari could do after seeing the Nes and Sega Master systems. Then somehow post-crash just does not seem as exciting a system to me.

 

That's not correct either. The 7800 was in development simultanious to the Famicom, back in '82-'83. Likewise the Master System was nowhere near being designed yet. The Mark III didn't come out until '85 and the American version (the master system) not until late '86. In fact it was first being announced when NOA and Atari Corp. were showing off their consoles at the June '86 CES.

[Atarifever]

What's everyone talking about? It's library will eventually be over 1/2 homebrews (if it isn't already), so it had a handful of games released during the crash, another handful after the crash, and an equal number of much higher quality games released in the last few years. I vote for current generation system.

[Metal Ghost]

Couple of problems with the views expressed here:

The comment about the 7800's game library showing pre-crash isn't accurate. Most of the highlighted games on the above list were the '84 launch titles. The bulk of the 7800's games were developed post crash, many from licenses of computer only games

 

Again, those games, with the data I have available, appear to be the most widely distributed games for the system. It's a different way to look at how the game library skews (i.e. units in the wild as opposed to titles released), but based on the context that I placed it in I think the idea is quite accurate. That, based on the only sales-like data I have available, the game library shows as being pre/during crash-esque. That most of them were '84 launch titles is besides the point. If that's when most of the games were sold, then that's how the library is going to skew. I'll put it another way: if 1,000 different games had been developed, with an equal weighting of titels in each genre, but 90% of the units sold were golden age arcade titles, then I'd say that the library lent itself towards the console being an arcade system.

[Retro Rogue]

If that's when most of the games were sold, then that's how the library is going to skew.

 

Most of the games were sold in '86 onwards, including those original launch titles. We already posted sales in a thread from a couple of years ago.

[Metal Ghost]

If that's when most of the games were sold, then that's how the library is going to skew.

 

Most of the games were sold in '86 onwards, including those original launch titles. We already posted sales in a thread from a couple of years ago.

 

Not sure of the thread....if you have a link, it'd be appreciated.

 

Am I wrong in thinking that those games with rarities of 1 here on AA are most likely the largest sellers? That should be the case unless other games were destroyed in the years since in larger proportion than their sales. So unless that's the case, then regardless of if Ms. Pac-Man was sold in '84 or '94, it's a golden age arcade game, and that's my point. Most of what appear to be the system's biggest sellers would fit in this category (based on games I listed above which are all the rarity 1's).

 

But this is almost an aside. I still believe that the console being put on display and sold to the public, regardless how limited, means that it was officially introduced pre-crash (or during....but pre-crash based on the popular definition of such).

Edited September 7, 2012 by Metal Ghost

[+Gemintronic]

On hindsight I'd agree with BOTH pre and post crash. As a kid I thought it competed *badly* with the NES and lost. Yet another case of companies not wanting to share. The NES could have been licensed to Atari. The Playstation could have been the SNESCD.

Edited September 7, 2012 by theloon

[jaybird3rd]

I suppose it doesn't really matter how one classifies it, and I can see reasonable arguments for both options. We see these choices made in other media, too: this movie, for instance, was shot in 1957 but not released until 1993. Should it be classified as a 1993 movie or as a 1957 movie? It looks much more like the 50s than the 90s to me, because that's when it was made, and yet IMDb lists it as a 1993 film because they go by the release date.

 

I suppose I think of the 7800 based more on the era that it represents, as one of the last products of pre-implosion Atari. If the 7800 had somehow sat on the shelf for twenty-five years instead of two, nobody would consider it a current-generation console just because it shipped in 2009. As I said earlier, the entire design and the original conception of the 7800 is very characteristic of the pre-crash 80s, but video games changed so much after the NES and SMS that the 7800 must have looked anachronistic to everyday gamers by the late 80s. If I had been aware of it at the time, that's probably how I would have seen it, too.

 

Regardless, I'm just glad it got its second lease on life ... and even a third, thanks to the 7800XM and an active homebrew community!

[108 Stars]

But the games library always leaned much more towards golden age arcade classics than towards those types of games that the NES and SMS started bringing into the mainstream.

 

That's what counts for me.

I can't code myself, but whenever I read talk about the tech I read that for example while it can handle tile-based scrolling graphics and such, things that were common in the post-crash era, the 7800 was not designed with that in mind. It was designed with the same kind of arcade games in mind that had made the industry great once; the kind of game the VCS, Intelivision and Colecovision had, but in better quality. And those are the games the 7800 shines at.

 

That's the spirit of the system.

 

Sure, later there came more modern games like Commando and Double Dragon, but they look kind of akward on the 7800; they just don't belong there I guess. Just like a jump' n run like Scrapyard Dog was okay for the system, but pales in comparison to the jump' n runs found on NES and SMS, and not just in the graphics department, but also the right "feel" of the controls and overall design.

 

The 7800 was the peak of the pre-crash-systems, and by coincedence no tpresented in that light, but in a later era that came so suddenly. It was an anachronistic game system for the latter half of the 80ies.

[DracIsBack]

but video games changed so much after the NES and SMS that the 7800 must have looked anachronistic to everyday gamers by the late 80s.

 

As one who had one at that very time when people had NES and SMS machines, the reaction among my friends were:

 

"The graphics are a lot better than the old Atari but the sound is still crappy"

"Why are the games so short?"

"Ball Blazer rules"

"The NES has all the good games"

 

When I had parties, people played the 7800 plenty (Xenophobe and Ballblazer in particular). They scoffed at Double Dragon and Rampage but liked COMMANDO, MIDNIGHT MUTANTS and ALIEN BRIGADE.

 

No one ever thought of it as being "out of date", but rather Atari's current system the NES was outselling because it had all the awesome games.

 

Incidentally, when girlfriends who aren't big video gamers see my collection and see the 7800, they've always immediately pegged it as 'Atari's answer to the old Nintendo?' due to the types of games on it and graphics etc.

Edited September 7, 2012 by DracIsBack