7800 - A Pre- or Post-Crash Console?

[Retro Rogue]

 

Not sure of the thread....if you have a link, it'd be appreciated.

 

I'll have to look for it. I know we released the number of consoles sold here:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/144552-happy-25th-7800-sales-figures-attached/page__p__1756601

 

Am I wrong in thinking that those games with rarities of 1 here on AA are most likely the largest sellers?

 

Yes, that would be incorrect. Rarity is not reflective of sales, but rather of manufacturing (and over manufacturing.) Simply put, it's how many of those cartridges are still in existence and how easy it is to find them. Games that didn't sell well but had a significant number produced can also be of low rarity for example. You could still by a lot of NOS (new old stock) 7800 and 2600 games through O'sheas until quite recently for example, and there are other online retailers still selling them. Remember as well, a large part of the crash was overproduction of games and poor inventory control, especially with regards to Atari. But none of that implies strong sales numbers, the only thing that reflects sales are actual sales. I've never heard of someone trying to go by a rarity listing to try and determine sales.

 

 

But this is almost an aside. I still believe that the console being put on display and sold to the public, regardless how limited, means that it was officially introduced pre-crash (or during....but pre-crash based on the popular definition of such).

 

It was a New York test marketing, not a regular release. Read in to that what you want. It's regular release though came in January, 1986 after it was formally introduced for mass distribution at CES and nation wide shipments began shortly after.

[Metal Ghost]

Well, as mentioned, without sales figures I used what I had.

[high voltage]

US NES was testmarket first too (in two cities even), and also shown earlier at the CES as the AVS from 84 onwards, so it took a further 2 years before release in the USA. So the NES was in the same boat as the 7800.

Edited September 7, 2012 by high voltage

[108 Stars]

The thing is, the 7800 was planned for release shortly after the test market release, it was not tested with the intention of releasing only two years later. That it was released so late in the end was due to the change in leadership at Atari, not because of the initial plan.

 

Also what makes the 7800 a pre-crash system is the often mentioned technology; a hardware that was for the most part designed for the classic arcade-like games. The NES/Famicom was arguably more forward looking designed and fared better with the longer, tile based games that became popular post crash. It was a system for the future, while the 7800 was looking back at what was successful and tried to make that shine.

 

The NES delayed release was due to Nintendo's limited foothold in NA back in the day; it was hard to get people interested in carrying it, that's why it was redesigned. And even then they had to make risky guarantees to get it in stores. Atari with its established name would have had an easier time getting the 7800 (or the NES which was offered to them) into shops early.

Edited September 7, 2012 by 108 Stars

[DracIsBack]

The thing is, the 7800 was planned for release shortly after the test market release, it was not tested with the intention of releasing only two years later. That it was released so late in the end was due to the change in leadership at Atari, not because of the initial plan.

 

And:

 

1. A big contractual issue to sort out;

2. The tasks of dealing with a sputtering business;

3. The state of video games at the time;

4. The reception of US retail at the time

 

 

 

The NES/Famicom was arguably more forward looking designed and fared better with the longer, tile based games that became popular post crash. It was a system for the future, while the 7800 was looking back at what was successful and tried to make that shine.

 

I sort of agree, but I think this is really overstated sometimes. Look at what PacMan Plus is pulling off right now with Crystal Quest. Look at Alien Brigade. Yes, the NES is better at tiles, but the 7800 can play those games. The "length" issue has nothing to do with technology but Tramiel cheapness. End of story.

 

I find this discussion to be silly.

 

- It was on the market and sold 1986-1990. Post-crash. Stop.

- While it was designed in 1983, so was the NES as the Famicom. Stop

- While it has a few arcade classics initially, most of the 60 or so games are not arcade classics. Stop.

- There are far more 128K 7800 games (post-crash size) than 16K (pre-crash) size ... even with Tramiel cheapness.

 

It's stretching it to call it a pre-crash system. It was designed more or less when its competition was, and it hit the market, more or less when its competition did. Stop.

[108 Stars]

Actually, I think that calling it a pre-crash system is a thing that is positive in the system's review. I will get a lot of hate for this, but when viewed as a post-crash system and a true competitor to SMS and NES I'd say it fails pretty miserably.

There's lttle excuse for the game quality and the inferior look and sound compared to the great NES- and SMS-games if not viewed in the pre-crash context.

 

No matter the crash, Atari could have pushed the 7800 to release in 1984; nothing huge maybe, but they were a big company and had some leverage. They planned to do that, they wanted it to do the classic arcade games; and even if it can push the tile based games too, for what I understand it was not intended to do that; it was designed to do the same old stuff in pretty and it did that.

 

The NES was born in the same time, but was designed to be superior to anything else and obviously with the change in gaming already in mind. The 7800 can also do it, but the NES was born to do it and can do it better because of that. That's how I understand it, I'm no tech guy myself. Let alone the SMS, which was designed later though.

 

I have seen the Bentley Bear homebrew and it looks great for an 7800 game; I really love what I see. But I don't see it eclipsing the cream of the crop on NES. Be it for technical reasons, or just because it's a one-man-project, jumps look much floatier and with less of a gravity feeling that god NES- and SMS games give, and the visuals do not match the very best NES or even average SMS games either. It's not finished, and many aspects may still improve, but I don't see it open eyes in that the 7800 can keep up with the SMS and NES in those kind of games.

 

So if you really dismiss any notion of the 7800's pre-crash roots when we judge the system, then for me it just makes the superiority of SMS and NES even greater. Then we have to look at the games ans see which ones look better, sound better, and play better with no excuses; and save for the arcade classics I think that this would lead to the defeat of the 7800 in most cases. The 7800's history was a thing I always found to be a good reason why it should not be compared the other two.

Edited September 7, 2012 by 108 Stars

[ninjarabbit]

At its heart the 7800 is a pre-crash console. Most of the games on the console are arcade ports and/or have that "Atari" style of design, which is largely what was on the 2600 and 5200. NES and SMS games had a different design philosophy for the most part other than some ports.

 

I know I'm speaking extremely broadly here but Atari was more about bringing the arcade experience home, Nintendo was more about creating a unique home experience (not so much with the first generation of NES games but you saw that much more in the 2nd generation of NES games like LoZ, Metroid, and Kid Icarus), and Sega was a balance of the two philosophies.

[DracIsBack]

Actually, I think that calling it a pre-crash system is a thing that is positive in the system's review. I will get a lot of hate for this, but when viewed as a post-crash system and a true competitor to SMS and NES I'd say it fails pretty miserably.

 

You make good points. Though, despite technical differences, I still come back to the same thing in some cases?

 

- If Nintendo was designing games for the 7800 hardware, would the quality be better? Ditto for Konami? Jaleco? etc. If Nintendo had Nintendo budgets on those games instead of Jack Tramiel budgets, what would the library be like? If Atari had invested in new dev tools, bigger carts, longer dev cycles, MMC type chips etc, what would the library be like?

 

Yes, the hardware differences are there, but there's a lot of factors involved.

 

Nintendo and Sega had some of the best dev teams on the planet and weren't afraid to spend on design or production. Jack was cheap and openly discouraged additional RAM, larger ROM, use of POKEYs etc.

[Stun Runner 87]

The 7800 console prototypes were actually built in 1983 and it was released in California in 1984......the new owner of Atari just happened to put them all in storage warehouses with no intention of releasing them....Just because it came out 3 years late in 1986 does not make it a post crash sytem.....it was built with the intention of coming out in 1984, therefore it is absolutely a precrash system.....unfortunately, Jack Tremiel bough Atari.....he didn't invest the time and money into the 7800 system even after its second release in 1986......It never reached the full capabitlies of its potential...............Plus the marketing was awful................Had PacManPlus owned Atari, it would of been more sucessful.....Bottom Line: Atafi 7800 is most definatly a precrash system.....Period.....Fact

[atari181]

The 7800 console prototypes were actually built in 1983 and it was released in California in 1984......the new owner of Atari just happened to put them all in storage warehouses with no intention of releasing them....Just because it came out 3 years late in 1986 does not make it a post crash sytem.....it was built with the intention of coming out in 1984, therefore it is absolutely a precrash system.....unfortunately, Jack Tremiel bough Atari.....he didn't invest the time and money into the 7800 system even after its second release in 1986......It never reached the full capabitlies of its potential...............Plus the marketing was awful................Had PacManPlus owned Atari, it would of been more sucessful.....Bottom Line: Atafi 7800 is most definatly a precrash system.....Period.....Fact

I agree, it mad developed and produced pre crash, signs were there that a crash was evident, but it had not yet happened. It was post crash and had zero to do with the crash. The old addage " too little too late "

[Stun Runner 87]

The funny thing of this whole history is that Nintendo actually asked the people at Atari to build there new NES sytem and Atari turned them down.

Could you imagine? I truely believe that turning down NES's offer is what truely killed Atari more than the stock market crash itself......

Mainly because Nintendo owned the rights to all the major video game making company's....This is the main reason Atari suffered and made so few games for the the 7800....All the 2nd and 3rd party video game makers wernt allowed to make games for any other system besides the NES system....I believe Nintendo actually got sued for this later on if I'm not mistaken......

 

But to make matters even worse, Atari made the same mistake twice when they turned down Segas offer to have Atari build the Genisis system...........

 

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.....

[atari181]

And Nintendo turning down Sony's offer of building a cd based system

[Stun Runner 87]

Somtimes I wish I knew Doc Brown and Marty McFly so I can alter history.

That way I can lock Jack Tremiel (AKA Biff ) in a cage for the whole year of 1984.

[Jaynz]

Tramiel made some serious mistakes, but everyone really needs to keep in mind that a) he was put into that position at Atari because it was already starting to fail , and b) EVERYONE was misreading the video game market and was panicking to get into the computer system market. He gets more than his share of demonization. I don't think you could have convinced anyone in 1984 that the best way to survive the market was to make an entirely new dedicated gaming system and put the Atari 2600 to bed for good.

[Retro Rogue]

A bit off on the facts again, these have been discussed here many times over and were also included in the 7800 article in Retro Gamer magazine. So I'm not sure why these missconceptions keep popping up, maybe it's a "newer poster" thing and getting info off outdated fan sites?

 

The 7800 console prototypes were actually built in 1983 and it was released in California in 1984......the new owner of Atari just happened to put them all in storage warehouses with no intention of releasing them....Just because it came out 3 years late in 1986 does not make it a post crash sytem.....it was built with the intention of coming out in 1984, therefore it is absolutely a precrash system.....unfortunately, Jack Tremiel bough Atari.....he didn't invest the time and money into the 7800 system even after its second release in 1986......

 

No. The 7800 was worked on at GCC from late '82-'84. The test marketing was in New York and a minor one in California. Jack bought the Consumer Division, not Atari itself. This was folded in to his own company, TTL, which was in turn renamed to Atari Corporation. Jack did not put the 7800 in storage warehouses with no intention of releasing them. GCC's deal was through Warner, not Atari. When the company was split, the GCC contract stayed with Warner. Jack wanted to release the 7800, and was counting on the money from all of Atari Inc.'s consumer products (including video games) to keep the company afloat. GCC was still owed for the development of the MARIA chip, and Warner insisted Jack had to pay GCC if he wanted the console. Jack felt it should have been included in the purchase. They spent from August '84 through May '85 in on again/off again negotiations until Jack relinquished and paid GCC for the MARIA development. Then he negotiated with GCC's fee for the development of the launch titles, and then began looking for someone to head up a proper video games division again that August '85. Mike Katz came on board by the end of September, started up the 7800 and the 2600 Jr. projects again and released the 2600 Jr. that Christmas. They spent a lot of money relaunching the 7800 in '86 and continued to do so over the next several years - Curt's already released figures on the money spent on advertising and marketing of Atari Corp.'s video game products, even more notable when Jack was struggling to pay off the mass amount of debt he took on as part of the agreement with Warner.

 

The funny thing of this whole history is that Nintendo actually asked the people at Atari to build there new NES sytem and Atari turned them down.

Could you imagine? I truely believe that turning down NES's offer is what truely killed Atari more than the stock market crash itself......

Mainly because Nintendo owned the rights to all the major video game making company's....This is the main reason Atari suffered and made so few games for the the 7800....All the 2nd and 3rd party video game makers wernt allowed to make games for any other system besides the NES system....I believe Nintendo actually got sued for this later on if I'm not mistaken......

 

But to make matters even worse, Atari made the same mistake twice when they turned down Segas offer to have Atari build the Genisis system...........

 

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.....

 

No. First, you're talking about two different Atari companies. Second, Atari Inc. never turned down the NES (and it was the Famicom at the time.) It was Nintendo that pulled out after Atari was taking too long and exposed it's financial problems to Yamauchi. Yamauchi's demands were also unheard of, he was demanding that Atari could only manufacture the case and packaging with all consoles and cartridges actually OEM'd by Nintendo. Likewise that Atari needed to guarantee a large amount of future orders and royalties and have the product out for that Christmas '83 - all before the Famicom itself had even been released in Japan. The negotiations continued and the Donkey Kong incident happened at CES in June, and then Kassar was fired, leaving an even longer limbo period for Jim Morgan came on board in September of '83. He solved the Donkey Kong issue but then froze all projects at Atari for another month for evaluation, during which Yamauchi and company walked when it became obvious the product would no longer be out for Christmas and Atari was in it's own serious troubles.

 

Nintendo did not own all the rights to the major video game making companies, what they did was during the implosion of the US dominated video game market in '84 (including Atari), started taking advantage of that void by going after licenses and locking in software houses developing for the Famicom in to exclusive licensing deals.

 

The Sega Genesis deal was with the second Atari, Atari Corporation. Likewise they did not turn it down, the two companies reached an impasse when Jack wanted world wide distribution rights and Sega only wanted to give rights to the US.

 

Somtimes I wish I knew Doc Brown and Marty McFly so I can alter history.

That way I can lock Jack Tremiel (AKA Biff ) in a cage for the whole year of 1984.

 

Which would have been a big mistake. Without him, the consumer operations would have simply died. Much is written on him getting the Consumer Division and Atari brand name rights for no money down, but the other side of the coin was he also took on all of the debt obligations from the company so Warner could get it off their books. Debt that had been piling up with millions a day for months. They also gave him the debt owed to Atari Inc., assuming he'd be able to collect and use that to keep operations going. That never happened, and Jack had to put his own money in to Atari Corporation in '84 just to keep the company going. The fact that he was able to wipe out all that debt by '86, develop an entire computer line, and relaunch the 2600 Jr. and 7800 is simply astounding.

[Stun Runner 87]

Thank you.......I already knew that, just checking to see how long it took someone to correct my post, LoL..............I think

[Atarifever]

A bit off on the facts again... [awesome fact setting session]...

This. Thanks for setting it straight again. People really don't get that without Tramiel, Atari would likely have done even worse in the end. A lot worse. There were very few ways that company could have made a profit as big as it did after the crash, and Tramiel found some of the only ways to do that.

[Atarifever]

 

I have seen the Bentley Bear homebrew and it looks great for an 7800 game; I really love what I see. But I don't see it eclipsing the cream of the crop on NES. Be it for technical reasons, or just because it's a one-man-project, jumps look much floatier and with less of a gravity feeling that god NES- and SMS games give, and the visuals do not match the very best NES or even average SMS games either. It's not finished, and many aspects may still improve, but I don't see it open eyes in that the 7800 can keep up with the SMS and NES in those kind of games.

 

I know you've basically already said you understand this, but again, is the comparison here that Bob, working alone in his spare time, can't top Shigeru freaking Miyamoto and a team of people, working full time? David Crane couldn't win that contest.

[DracIsBack]

Curt's already released figures on the money spent on advertising and marketing of Atari Corp.'s video game products

 

I must have missed this somewhere? I remember the console and game sales data and the Jaguar dev costs spreadsheet but not anything that detailed marketing costs for 7800.

 

the comparison here that Bob, working alone in his spare time, can't top Shigeru freaking Miyamoto and a team of people, working full time?

 

With the ability to put the game on a 3 megabit cartridge, throwing in an MMC, adding a battery save and developing over an 18 month dev cycle.

Edited September 8, 2012 by DracIsBack

[Stun Runner 87]

A bit off on the facts again, these have been discussed here many times over and were also included in the 7800 article in Retro Gamer magazine. So I'm not sure why these missconceptions keep popping up, maybe it's a "newer poster" thing and getting info off outdated fan sites?

 

The 7800 console prototypes were actually built in 1983 and it was released in California in 1984......the new owner of Atari just happened to put them all in storage warehouses with no intention of releasing them....Just because it came out 3 years late in 1986 does not make it a post crash sytem.....it was built with the intention of coming out in 1984, therefore it is absolutely a precrash system.....unfortunately, Jack Tremiel bough Atari.....he didn't invest the time and money into the 7800 system even after its second release in 1986......

 

No. The 7800 was worked on at GCC from late '82-'84. The test marketing was in New York and a minor one in California. Jack bought the Consumer Division, not Atari itself. This was folded in to his own company, TTL, which was in turn renamed to Atari Corporation. Jack did not put the 7800 in storage warehouses with no intention of releasing them. GCC's deal was through Warner, not Atari. When the company was split, the GCC contract stayed with Warner. Jack wanted to release the 7800, and was counting on the money from all of Atari Inc.'s consumer products (including video games) to keep the company afloat. GCC was still owed for the development of the MARIA chip, and Warner insisted Jack had to pay GCC if he wanted the console. Jack felt it should have been included in the purchase. They spent from August '84 through May '85 in on again/off again negotiations until Jack relinquished and paid GCC for the MARIA development. Then he negotiated with GCC's fee for the development of the launch titles, and then began looking for someone to head up a proper video games division again that August '85. Mike Katz came on board by the end of September, started up the 7800 and the 2600 Jr. projects again and released the 2600 Jr. that Christmas. They spent a lot of money relaunching the 7800 in '86 and continued to do so over the next several years - Curt's already released figures on the money spent on advertising and marketing of Atari Corp.'s video game products, even more notable when Jack was struggling to pay off the mass amount of debt he took on as part of the agreement with Warner.

 

The funny thing of this whole history is that Nintendo actually asked the people at Atari to build there new NES sytem and Atari turned them down.

Could you imagine? I truely believe that turning down NES's offer is what truely killed Atari more than the stock market crash itself......

Mainly because Nintendo owned the rights to all the major video game making company's....This is the main reason Atari suffered and made so few games for the the 7800....All the 2nd and 3rd party video game makers wernt allowed to make games for any other system besides the NES system....I believe Nintendo actually got sued for this later on if I'm not mistaken......

 

But to make matters even worse, Atari made the same mistake twice when they turned down Segas offer to have Atari build the Genisis system...........

 

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.....

 

No. First, you're talking about two different Atari companies. Second, Atari Inc. never turned down the NES (and it was the Famicom at the time.) It was Nintendo that pulled out after Atari was taking too long and exposed it's financial problems to Yamauchi. Yamauchi's demands were also unheard of, he was demanding that Atari could only manufacture the case and packaging with all consoles and cartridges actually OEM'd by Nintendo. Likewise that Atari needed to guarantee a large amount of future orders and royalties and have the product out for that Christmas '83 - all before the Famicom itself had even been released in Japan. The negotiations continued and the Donkey Kong incident happened at CES in June, and then Kassar was fired, leaving an even longer limbo period for Jim Morgan came on board in September of '83. He solved the Donkey Kong issue but then froze all projects at Atari for another month for evaluation, during which Yamauchi and company walked when it became obvious the product would no longer be out for Christmas and Atari was in it's own serious troubles.

 

Nintendo did not own all the rights to the major video game making companies, what they did was during the implosion of the US dominated video game market in '84 (including Atari), started taking advantage of that void by going after licenses and locking in software houses developing for the Famicom in to exclusive licensing deals.

 

The Sega Genesis deal was with the second Atari, Atari Corporation. Likewise they did not turn it down, the two companies reached an impasse when Jack wanted world wide distribution rights and Sega only wanted to give rights to the US.

 

Somtimes I wish I knew Doc Brown and Marty McFly so I can alter history.

That way I can lock Jack Tremiel (AKA Biff ) in a cage for the whole year of 1984.

 

Which would have been a big mistake. Without him, the consumer operations would have simply died. Much is written on him getting the Consumer Division and Atari brand name rights for no money down, but the other side of the coin was he also took on all of the debt obligations from the company so Warner could get it off their books. Debt that had been piling up with millions a day for months. They also gave him the debt owed to Atari Inc., assuming he'd be able to collect and use that to keep operations going. That never happened, and Jack had to put his own money in to Atari Corporation in '84 just to keep the company going. The fact that he was able to wipe out all that debt by '86, develop an entire computer line, and relaunch the 2600 Jr. and 7800 is simply astounding.

Boy is my face red http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDoQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtoNsPh-pxgc&ei=7aFLUISzGIHW2AXoj4GIAw&usg=AFQjCNEiXOVHyzsC5GLIkxGxRjXEgpsecw I feel like digging a hole and burying my head in it.

[108 Stars]

 

I know you've basically already said you understand this

 

Good.

 

, but again, is the comparison here that Bob, working alone in his spare time, can't top Shigeru freaking Miyamoto and a team of people, working full time? David Crane couldn't win that contest.

 

The comparison here (mind you, I was not the one who brought Bentley up) is that even an example gven of a tilebased game considered impressive on the 7800 is not on the same level as comparable NES and SMS-games, thus it does not help much in making the 7800 look better as a direct competitor to Nintendo's and Sega's machines. I'm active in the homebrew-scene as well, I only do gfx personally, but I know the amount of work required and how much difference a team makes.

That said I'd actually believe that PacManPlus could even do what Shigeru Miyamoto and his team did if he worked on NES and invested the time; he'd take longer than Big N, but he seems to have the required skills and has better tools nowadays, and Mario games are no technical miracles, it's purely game design and visual/audio style that makes them special. The creative act is complete, the prototypical jump' n run designed; this is what Miyamoto did great, he formed the mold and PacManPlus would not have to reinvent the wheel. But in general a platformer is no RPG with vast arrays of enemies, characters, worlds and text, it's one of the genres that can actually be done by a single person well imo. David Crane could, too.

The thing is: As it is even Bentley can't keep up with Mario & co, and if Bentley is regarded as impressive as far as tile-based games on the 7800 goes, then it is evidence that the 7800 truly can not compete in this kind of game. We can always say "but" this and that, but we can only judge on what we can see on the system; and all evidence seems to lean to the direction that the 7800 was inferior when it came to the then modern games.

 

This is my issue with the 7800 as post-crash-system; For me, regarding it as a pre-crash-system with typical pre-crash-games in mind when it was made this always served as a reason, a good excuse if you will, to why it did not meet the NES' and SMS' standards. I always want to see the Atari systems in a positive light, the 7800 is no exception. But if you really take the benefit of its heritage in an earlier generation of games away from it, there is little to say in the console's favor imo.

 

All its charm lies in the arcade hits of the golden age. Sure, maybe it was partially because Jack Tramiel was cheap; probably even. But that does not help either, the end result was a console that constantly got kicked in the butt when it came to games not from the old arcade era. If he had not been so cheap, maybe games would have been better... but would they be equal to the ones on NES and SMS? We can only guess; my guess would be based on the best homebrew has to offer nowadays, and this is where Bentley Bear comes into the picture. You can argue it can't be a fair comparison as a one-man-project, yet still it probably represents the benchmark of 7800 tile based gaming right now. It's the best comparison we have. At least it comes much closer to NES or SMS than freakin' Double Dragon. I don't expect we can ask Miyamoto to assemble his team and port SMB3 to the 7800 to have a really fair comparison. Some compromise has to do.

[Jinks]

the question is WHO CARES!!!

[PacManPlus]

Just as a side note, the 'jumping' physics can be very easily changed; The very first version if Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest used the exact SMB code for jumping (ripped directly from the SMB source code). I decided that I'd rather re-write it so I understood it. I made it to where I felt comfortable with the jumping physics.

 

Out of curiosity, other than the NES having each tile have it's own set of colors and using 256x256 instead of 160x192 graphics on the 7800, what is so 'sub-par' with Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest from SMB? I was trying to make it a cross between Wonderboy and SMB, actually. While it's true, there are no 'swimming' levels in mine, but that's only because I *despised* the swimming levels in SMB. I'm actually using a 14-color mode for the sprites, whereas I don't think the NES could do that natively (I may be wrong).

 

Just curious on your thoughts.

[Atarifever]

Out of curiosity, other than the NES having each tile have it's own set of colors and using 256x256 instead of 160x192 graphics on the 7800, what is so 'sub-par' with Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest from SMB?

Well, I don't know that I think it is. I haven't played BB:CQ since the first prototype on the first page of the thread. I don't play later ROMs for the games I'll be buying unless they come up in the HSC before I get them. I'm just saying to 108 that I think the comparison is kind of unfair, in that he is comparing uncompleted work you are doing alone, in your spare time, to the finished work of an entire development team, working full time for many months, with a virtually endless budget.

 

For all I know, I'll personally like BB:CQ more than SMB, and will think it looks, plays, etc. better. If past experience is any indication, I sure prefer PacMAn Collection (and your stand alone PacMan I ordered way back in the day) to NES PacMan.

[Trebor]

...other than the NES having each tile have it's own set of colors and using 256x256 instead of 160x192 graphics on the 7800, what is so 'sub-par' with Bentley Bear: Crystal Quest from SMB?

 

I don't agree with the sentiment of "Crystal Quest" being 'sub-par'.

 

However, in my humble opinion, many 'kids' perception back in the day, their view of the 7800 at the time, and even perhaps some (many?) people’s view now is a result of your above statement respecting resolution.

 

Honestly, I never ‘got it’ or ‘saw it’ until you released Pac-Man & Ms. Pac-Man 320. Your Pac-Man Collection is nothing short of genius awesomeness; but I always wondered to myself why the 7800 graphics never looked as "good" as the NES. Yes, games like Midnight Mutants and Alien Brigade looked pretty good to me, but something was still “missing”.

 

Even comparing Ms. Pac-Man, Dig Dug, Galaga and other titles; NES looked more ‘arcade-ish’ in sprite design and overall graphics. I knew the 7800 was no slouch, but I couldn’t put my finger on it exactly. Then I saw your aforementioned Pac and Ms. Pac 320 ports, and it finally clicked with me. Resolution made quite the difference to me and probably many others.

 

I really think sticking with that lower resolution (Or should I state limiting the higher resolution so much that it was impractical to use for the most part) for many of its game (on top of the other things mentioned in this thread), hurt the 7800 more with public perception - kids and perhaps even adults at the time and made Nintendo’s cake tastier. The sticking with TIA sound for most games helped put the icing on that cake.

 

Don’t get me wrong, my heart is with the 7800, back in the day when I had the choice of a 7800 or NES, I chose a 7800 – And I never regretted it.

 

Nonetheless, I can almost guarantee if you did a mock-up of screen shots, or even a mock video showing gameplay at the higher resolution, those who think or claim Crystal Quest is sub-par to SMB would change their tune. I can almost bet the barn that would indeed be the case once there’s music/sound accompanying it as well.

 

Sticking with the OP and my two cents: Regardless of the resolution issue, if you claim the 7800 is pre-crash, then so is the NES. The 7800 is as much of a post-crash system as the NES.

 

There was a discussion along similar lines in another thread not too long ago, but the facts are if you took away all the NES games with added chips - either memory, bank switching, and/or sound), the NES library would be very much diminished. The vast majority of NES games had 'something' added to the cart to enhance the base systems capabilities. If Atari was able to invest the same amount of resources and added hardware to their line of 7800 games, the 7800 may still not have won the war, but the battle would indeed been better fought.

 

Here's a doc for reference: http://tuxnes.source...t/nesmapper.txt Anything with a mapper other than zero [represented as (0) in the document] has chip enhancements above the capabilities of the base system. Additionally, even with many of the listed games with mapper zero, you'll notice the chip sizes of those is much higher than most of the released 7800 released games.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Trebor