7800 - A Pre- or Post-Crash Console?

[Atarifever]

I seem to recall ColecoVision's Expansion Module #1 being rather a large seller, especially with Coleco using it to drive their "CV has the biggest games library" advertising campaign. Pretty sure that moved more than a few CV units.

Now this one I forgot. That is indeed an example I should have listed.

[ninjarabbit]

The Sega CD and 32x were both just a mess of wires, both needing their own AC adapters. A friend of mine in the 90s had the whole set-up and it was a monster, one or both of them should have been their own system rather than keeping the Genesis on life support especially when you factor in some games required both add-ons to play. And while the Game Boy Player was pretty nifty if you lost or damaged the boot-up disc you were SOL. The best add-ons were simple plug-and-play like the Super Game Boy or the Expansion Module #1

[108 Stars]

You sure about that? I remember it selling into the channel initially, but not all that well through to consumers. They were liquidating them for $29 to clear them off the shelves and there were mountains of them at every store near me.

 

Yes. I know there were mountains of them in 1995 thrown at customers, but the initial release was a great success; while I do not know how many 32X were sold to customers it must have been quite a good chunk if not all of the 1994 production run of 500 000; because Star Wars Arcade was one of the (if not the, I can't find the sales statistics right now) best selling Sega game on Christmas 1994. All was dwarved by Donkey Kong Country on SNES that year, and Sega really had problems not getting buried, but that 32X game proved to sell very well. And if you sell several hundredthousands of one game, logic tells us that there must have been several thousand people as userbase that bought.

And those were impressive numbers for a machine launched in November,

 

The downfall really came in 1995, when all the announcements for new games came and it became obvious that Sega was not exactly offering much in the way of AAA-titles to follow up, and instead focused on the Saturn. Virtua Fighter was probably the most interesting one, but that series would never become very popular outside Japan as we can say in hindsight. Third Parties aren't stupid either, they won't support a system if they see even the manufacturer doesn't put effort in it, so a lot of titles were cancelled, and what made it to the market was often rushjobs or just slightly enhanced from 16-bit standards.

 

Sales took a nosedive after Christmas 1994, and we can only guess that what was sold for cheap later on was pretty much the entire production run of that year.

[ApolloBoy]

...one or both of them should have been their own system rather than keeping the Genesis on life support especially when you factor in some games required both add-ons to play.

There's the CDX and X'Eye, which are Genesis/Sega CD combo units if you're interested in that.

[NinjaFlicker]

This thread makes my head hurt.

 

First, can we define "Pre-crash" system? Because if it doesn't mean "released before the brief crash of the American videogame market", then we can throw away the label and save ourselves a lot of trouble. It clearly doesn't mean "less powerful than a Famicom", or else someone needs to explain how Tiger's R-Zone isn't a pre-crash system too. We aren't even arguing about the types of games made, because half of the downloadable shovelware taking up space on my 3DS really wants to bring those years back to life.

 

It seems to be more about "can the 7800 actually bring the gameplay from the NES era to life without serious compromises? Does it need a handicap to compete?"

 

I'd like to present the following hypothetical test, and I hope some of you with more technical minds can educate me on the matter...

 

1. With nearly unlimited multicolored sprites, is there any reason that the 7800 couldn't improve on The Legend of Zelda or Dragon Quest, in every way except audio and screen resolution?

 

2. We've focused on the strengths of tile based systems. What about their weaknesses? What could the 7800 do with Sega's super scaler games such as Space Harrier and Afterburner?

[Jaynz]

It was released pre-crash as a system intended to replace the 2600 in 1983 but didn't. The crash caused the system to have a delayed main-line release. It is a PRE CRASH system, and anything else is a misguided sense of personal identity.

[DracIsBack]

It was released pre-crash as a system intended to replace the 2600 in 1983 but didn't.

 

How was it supposed to release in 1983, when they were still working on it in 1983 and 1984?

[Atarifever]

It was released pre-crash as a system intended to replace the 2600 in 1983 but didn't. The crash caused the system to have a delayed main-line release. It is a PRE CRASH system, and anything else is a misguided sense of personal identity.

Sigh.

[Retro Rogue]

It was released pre-crash as a system intended to replace the 2600 in 1983 but didn't. The crash caused the system to have a delayed main-line release. It is a PRE CRASH system, and anything else is a misguided sense of personal identity.

 

Once again -

 

It was intended to replace the 5200, not the 2600. The 2600 was in it's final revision stage with the upcoming planned released of the Jr.

 

It was 1984, not 1983.

 

The crash started in December '82 and reached it's crescendo in July '84 with the splitting of Atari Inc.

 

The 7800 is a during crash system.

[Jaynz]

The 2600jr wasn't meant to replace the 2600 in Atari's marketing importance. It was to be the 'new mainline system'. THAT is what I meant, that the 7800 was meant to be Atari's new 'main' system. But, yes, the 7800 was released as the crash started, but it definately was NOT a ''post-crash" system either in design or intent.

[Retro Rogue]

The 2600jr wasn't meant to replace the 2600 in Atari's marketing importance. It was to be the 'new mainline system'. THAT is what I meant, that the 7800 was meant to be Atari's new 'main' system.

 

The first sentence doesn't make sense, the 2600jr is the 2600. Regardless, that last sentence isn't accurate. The 7800 was the replacement to the 5200, which in turn was intended to be a "high end" complimentary console to the low 5200. Hence the 7800 was being positioned in that same light. And within the year, it was intended to be joined by a 68000/Amiga chipset based console making it a trifecta.

There was never any "main console," unless you go back to the 2600 only days.

 

But, yes, the 7800 was released as the crash started, but it definately was NOT a ''post-crash" system either in design or intent.

 

It was released as the crash was hitting it's end. Summer '84 through Jan '86 was the aftermath of the crash, with '86 being the revival.

[Stun Runner 87]

Excuse me sir......but the 7800 was planned to be released in 1984 but the console was built in late 1983.....Plans for it were begun in 82.......just sayin brah........but you are correct about the 7800 being the repalcement for the 5200.......

I think................

[Atarifever]

Excuse me sir......but the 7800 was planned to be released in 1984 but the console was built in late 1983....

He was responding to the idea that it was planned for release in 1983. It was not.

 

Again, the false history in here is getting pretty absurd. By the end of this we'll be no doubt trying to explain it is not true that the 2600 was delayed in 1940 because of World War 2. In fact, even that might be too hopeful. It'll probably be argued it was delayed in 1940 because of constant dinosaur rampages.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Atarifever

[DracIsBack]

If folks want to know specifics on the history of the 7800 and the timing etc, I recommend you take this MP3 and listen to it.

 

http://www.applefritter.com/mp3/vcf2004/atari.mp3

[Stun Runner 87]

If folks want to know specifics on the history of the 7800 and the timing etc, I recommend you take this MP3 and listen to it.

 

http://www.applefritter.com/mp3/vcf2004/atari.mp3

 

Thank you for posting that MP3 for everyone...That just about proves that my statements on this thread were correct........And I also mentioned earlier in this thread that ideas to build a 7800 were manifesting when the 5200 was just hitting the scene......Well at leat I know I'm not the offical atariage.com forum clown now....LoL.................Atari 7800 is a PRE-CRASH CONSOLE.....PERIOD!!!!!! End of story, Thread can be closed now.......................

[DracIsBack]

Thank you for posting that MP3 for everyone...That just about proves that my statements on this thread were correct........And I also mentioned earlier in this thread that ideas to build a 7800 were manifesting when the 5200 was just hitting the scene......Well at leat I know I'm not the offical atariage.com forum clown now....LoL.................Atari 7800 is a PRE-CRASH CONSOLE.....PERIOD!!!!!! End of story, Thread can be closed now.......................

 

Sorry, but I'll absolutely never agree with that. By virtue of the Famicom being out, in the market, in Japan, in 1983 and then finally released in test market in 1985 in the US and full market in 1986.

 

It makes absolutely no sense to me that the "NES" would be 'post crash' and the 7800 pre-crash. Yes, there are some technical differences between the two, but it's they both have all the earmarks of what I consider post-crash systems ...

 

... larger games

... side scrollers with many levels (even if there aren't many on the 7800, Scrapyard Dog does have 17levels)

... games with passwords

... more detailed graphics

... wide release post 1984

... the majority of games arriving in the second half of the 1980s

 

 

You can argue it all you want ... I think it's ludicrous to think of the 7800 as a "pre-crash" system. The system was being designed WHEN the industry was crashing. The NES had already been designed (as Famicom). Most consumers couldn't get one until 1986 (same for NES). Most games didn't come out till later.

[boxpressed]

Pre-Crash or Post-Crash? I'm not sure why people are ignoring Retro Rogue's point that there was a "during crash" (or "crashing," if you will) period as well. In fact, "crash" is probably not the best metaphor for the decline of the industry given that it probably refers to the Wall Street Crash in 1929, a meltdown that happened in a matter of days. Is there one moment in 1984 that we can point to as the day (or even week) of the "crash"?

[Stun Runner 87]

I can understand the difficulty of choosing to labe the 7800 as either a post or pre crash system......maybe its both......You mention sidescrolling games as an excuse for calling the 7800 post crash........but scrapyard dog didn't come out until like 1990...the only sidescroller mid 80s game for the 7800 was Impossible mission which was also on the commadore 64 and other systems...the game was programmed in like 1984.........If judging a console as a pre or post crash sytem, I would think the creation of the 7800 (1983) would make it automatically a precrash system based on the fact that the planning and first released titles for it were PLANNED before the Climax of the crash of 1984 that split up Atari.......I respect your opinions, but the way I see it, the 7800 is or at least was meant to be a precrash console....The same goes for NES........That's kind of like saying the Atari 2600 is a 1980s console when really its a 1970s console based on its technologies........

[Stun Runner 87]

Pre-Crash or Post-Crash? I'm not sure why people are ignoring Retro Rogue's point that there was a "during crash" (or "crashing," if you will) period as well. In fact, "crash" is probably not the best metaphor for the decline of the industry given that it probably refers to the Wall Street Crash in 1929, a meltdown that happened in a matter of days. Is there one moment in 1984 that we can point to as the day (or even week) of the "crash"?

I believe the END of 1984, if I'm not mistaken.....lol, I know that's not very specific, but I thought id give the ultimate trivia question a shot.

[Jaynz]

Honestly, I don't understand the serious emotional investment in this one...

[Jinks]

what do the games and types of games do to date the console??? nothing. so if i bang 16 yr olds i am a teenager and if i screw grandmas i am a geezer i dont get the logic. if this question is asked the only thing to do is look at the timeline of when it was released and go from there.. no debating for facts..

wth famicon has to do with this?? furthermore crash is not one day its over several months. there is no real date set on the crash i mean to the day its relative to whoever is talking. .. no facts. like saying the recession is over tomorrow and started jan 3 2008.. this thread makes zero sense..

[Retro Rogue]

what do the games and types of games do to date the console??? nothing. so if i bang 16 yr olds i am a teenager and if i screw grandmas i am a geezer i dont get the logic. if this question is asked the only thing to do is look at the timeline of when it was released and go from there.. no debating for facts..

 

Yes, those pesky things called facts and reality. For the rest of us living in the real world that care about such things while you're off being a pedo and geronto, this is what makes this a curious console and why there's a debate among people here. The 7800 has a long release history because of it's timing, with a design and initial launch titles far earlier than it's full release. Thanks for elevating your position with class and coherent thought though.

 

wth famicon has to do with this??

 

That's been pretty well laid out in discussion, if you don't get it I'm not sure who can help you understand. Maybe ask that elderly grandma you're banging up in Canada.

 

furthermore crash is not one day its over several months. there is no real date set on the crash i mean to the day its relative to whoever is talking. .. no facts. like saying the recession is over tomorrow and started jan 3 2008.. this thread makes zero sense..

 

Completely infactual. It's over several years, not months, and the facts are more than well laid out for anyone that actually wants to do the research - reasearch being scholarly research and not reading a few websites and books. The entire summation of which was also in my Crash article for Retro Gamer. It started in December '82 with the more than well documented stock market problems with Atari that caused an immediate rolling effect to most of the other video game companies on the market, causing layoffs that January and then cascading out through the rest of the industry all through '83 causing more layoffs, shutdowns as companies exited (a lot of the smaller cottage industry ones first) and coming to a crescendo in July '84 with Atari's splitting. At the time of the beginning of the crash, Atari was 80% of the industry. When a company representing that much of the industry has their major problems it creates the type of effect it did. The fact that Wall Street had already been predicting video games to be a fad didn't help, as now they had something tangible to point a finger at. That's what also added to an already bad situation.

 

 

In fact, "crash" is probably not the best metaphor for the decline of the industry given that it probably refers to the Wall Street Crash in 1929, a meltdown that happened in a matter of days. Is there one moment in 1984 that we can point to as the day (or even week) of the "crash"?

 

No, since as mentioned above it happened over about a year and a half period. The effects were certainly immediate in the "crash" sense though (stock market crash, layoffs, closings, etc.), but they just kept getting worse and worse in a seemingly never ending compounding effect that lasted through '84 with the splitting of Atar Inc. After that, the only big company still in the inudstry in their original pre-crash format that I'm aware of was Coleco. They were still manufacturing games and Colecovisions and supporting the Colecovision into 1985 before liquidating in the Summer of '85.

[Stun Runner 87]

I agree with Rogue......this is one of the oldest and most thought about debates in relation to the 7800 in my opinion........But as I stated, considering that the 7800 was supposed to be the savior for Atari (BEFORE THE CLIMAX OF THE CRASH) IT JUST HAS TO BE CONSIDERED A PRECRASH CONSOLE.......I mean come on people, why would Atari shortly release the 7800 in 1984 to try and save them from the crash?...that alone makes it a precrash console....In 1984, I believe Atari's intention to release this console was so the 7800 could play "the hero" role to save Atari's asses..........Heros come out to save the planet before its destroyed, not after...therefore it is precrash...........

 

Had it been released to the masses in 84 instead of 86, it would of had a 2 year head start on NES's release in North America, giving the 7800 time to improve its software and capabilities...And it would of been a top seller in 85 because it would of been the best console at the time with no NES in the North American ?arket......NES still would of kickd the 7800s ass when it eventually came out, but with the 7800s head start, purhaps more games would of been made for it by then minus Jack Tremiel of course....LoL

Edited September 16, 2012 by Stun Runner 87

[Stun Runner 87]

Sorry to be a pain in everyone butt, but the 78 is Pre-Crash technology.....can we all at least agree on that?

Edited September 16, 2012 by Stun Runner 87

[Jinks]

Thanks RR. I didnt know there was vid game scholars in the real world. I will stay out of topics that mean nothing to me as I like to play classic games not argue about dates. I am now enlightened on this as being a big deal to the 7800 community to put up a fuss and fight over a catagory for a vid game system.

For the record I am not a pedo or that other old person sicko word you used..

Maybe my post seemed offensive to hard core historains such as yourself.. Carry on then.. I was kinda trying to break up the fight about this as you were getting frustrated by having to explain your views over and over and certain people were not getting it. I guess you have to know me in person I am a decent guy. This is not real world to me. texting messaging email all kinda fake. you would have to be old school to understand my previous sentence. peace out..