I'm getting bored with my Apple II stuff

[Keatah]

I'm getting bored with my Apple II stuff, not sure what to do with it. Seems like I played every game and ran every utility. Seen every picture and wrote (or ran) every basic program. Now what?

[+wood_jl]

Get a CFFA 3000. Gonna sell anything? How much for a mint/unyellowed/enhanced IIe?

[Keatah]

I've gone back and forth about selling some of the Apple 2 series stuff I've accumulated. I've deduped and pawned off some of the rarer items I'm not going to use. I think I'm gravitating back to my original BBS configuration I had back then. And that means a nice tight machine. I'm not selling anything ATM. I would suggest ebay, but prices are beginning to climb a little. I won't shit you. Whether or not the stuff is moving I don't know. I haven't watched that closely. Right now, it would cost about $200.00 to get a nice composite monitor, //e, 2 disk drives, 64k/80 col card, and a super serial card, and cables.

 

You might hear some enthusiasts say that's a hogwash ripoff, maybe, but the dumpster diving days are coming to a close. It's been difficult finding anyone with "that old garbage". And yet at the same time as apple products continue to gain in popularity and with the falling economy, these things are being held onto more and more.

 

If you're just getting the lay of the land, why not start off with AppleWin emulator and a some select disks, reference charts, and manuals. I could suggest a comprehensive bitch'n package. Combine it with CiderPress and you're good to go. Once you've seen how everything comes together then go for some hardware, in the meantime keep an eye out now for that hardware.

 

Besides, some of the programs are actually useful when you run them full-tilt at 500MHz in an emulator.

[The Usotsuki]

I should really replace the keyboard on my //e.

[JohnnyRockets]

Hi Keatah,

 

I'd really be interested in your recommendation of a "comprehensive b!tch'in package"!

 

Could you elaborate on that at all? And what is CiderPress? Sound very interesting...

 

Sorry, I come from the land of the C64/VIC-20.

 

 

JR

[Keatah]

I'm preparing the list now. This list is intended for newcomers. And it will show you what is needed to get going. If you're old hat, then I'm sure you know about this stuff with the possible exception of one up and coming emulator that looks very nice, especially in the way of CRT emulation. http://openemulator.org/index.html

Edited October 9, 2012 by Keatah

[JohnnyRockets]

Thanks Keatah!

 

I'm really looking forward to it!

 

 

JR

[Segataritensoftii]

I'm preparing the list now. This list is intended for newcomers. And it will show you what is needed to get going. If you're old hat, then I'm sure you know about this stuff with the possible exception of one up and coming emulator that looks very nice, especially in the way of CRT emulation. http://openemulator.org/index.html

I really wish they would come out with a Windows version. It looks perfect, but I'm not interested in installing a whole other OS just to run it.

[Keatah]

Well it *is* portable open-source, and the page says it will be available for PC soon enough.

[The Usotsuki]

CiderPress is a tool for manipulating Apple ][ disk images. I find it invaluable.

[Keatah]

Meh I'm getting even more bored! So I’m peter’n out. This is anything but a shitkicker killer post. But, here is a basic list of stuff to help introduce you to the world of Apple II, both real and emulated.

 

I just got into VICE and k-kalico-keweled & spiffied my emulation setup nicely, that's what’s slick about retrocomputing in today’s day and age, you can segue from system to system in a matter of minutes without any fuss.

 

But since this thread is about Apple 2 series stuff (for newcomers) we will discuss that. I was showing some seniors what the Apple 2 series was like. And I got to thinking what would be the very essentials for putting together an emulation package that gives the most bang for the buck? Simple to setup and use. What has been tested and proven to work? This is designed to help you build the groundwork for running much of the Apple 2 series software. It does not cover anything from the IIgs, that’s for another time. This little list is intended for beginners. If you’re an expert, this will make you yawn.

 

All you need to get going is AppleWin and FTP ASIMOV, there’s so much shit there you can spend years absorbing it all.

 

 

Basic emulation infrastructure for the PC:

1- AppleWin 1.21.1.0

2- AppleWin WS-NTSC 05

http://developer.ber...p?group_id=6117

http://applewin.berlios.de/

http://wsxyz.net/applewin.html

These will provide you with an easy way to run actual Apple 2 series software right on your PC desktop. There are other emulators that are perhaps more complete in some areas and less so in others. AppleWin is great for beginners, you drag’n’drop the image right onto the emulator and away you go. And there’s no lengthy setup process either. Just get item #1 to get started in 15 minutes. Copy the emulator files to your system and drag-n-drop any .dsk or .po image from FTP ASIMOV right into the emulator to run it. ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/images/

 

File Management on the PC side:

1- CiderPress

2- AppleCommander

3- The standard Windows File Explorer built into your computer.

http://ciderpress.sourceforge.net/

https://sourceforge....cts/ciderpress/

http://applecommander.sourceforge.net/

As you download disk images you will need to organize them and work with them. You may want to edit files or add things to those images. CiderPress is the best thing out there, but it is antiquated with lack of drag’n’drop conventions, furthermore it was written in the win98 days and looks dated. It is an invaluable tool for working with images, however..! AppleCommander is good for formatting and making disk images. It’s a little more streamlined, but not as fully functioned as CiderPress. These **will** get the job done!

 

File Management on the Apple 2 side:

Apple Dos 3.3 System Master (August 1980)

Apple IIe DOS 3.3 System Master 1983

Copy II Plus 5.5

Copy II Plus 8.4

Copy II Plus 9.1

ProDos 1.1.1 basic & startup disk

ProDos 1.1.1 user’s disk

ProDos 8 v2.0.3 system disk 4.0

ProDos 8 v.2.0.3 basic v1.5

David-Dos installation disk

Diversi-Dos installation v4.1-C

These are the basic DOS images and copy programs the will provide all the functionality necessary for working with files and disks on real hardware. So if you go through the trouble to make real floppies, do one of the Apple Dos 3.3 System Masters and Copy II Plus 5.5. One on one side, the other on the other side. If you want a more "advanced" DOS, get into ProDos and use it on an enhanced //e. Get these from

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/images/masters/

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/images/masters/prodos/

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/images/masters/3rd_party_dos/

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/images/disk_utils/copy_ii/

Or from this .zip file -- Apple DOS & ProDOS disk images.zip

 

File Transfer to and from a real Apple II:

1- ADTpro 1.2.5

2- SuperSerial card for the Apple 2

3- Serial cable

4- Old PC with real serial ports, or a serial-to-USB adapter for use on modern PC

5- CFFA 3000 card with removable media

http://adtpro.source....net/index.html

http://dreher.net/?s...ppleII/main.php

ADTpro is what will enable you to transfer disk image back and forth between your PC and a real Apple. It works over Ethernet, serial cables, or the cassette audio cables. See the excellent project page for complete documentation! CFFA 3000 is one of the best solutions for using flash media like SD cards and USB on your Apple. Both of these solutions allow you to get information too and from the APPLE <> PC. If you’re doing emulation only and staying within the desktop environment, then none of this section is needed.

 

Documentation to review:

1- CompSysApple2FAQ – answers tons of questions

http://apple2.info/w...?title=CSA2_FAQ

2- Apple 2 series manuals from

http://apple2online....ntation-Library

http://mirrors.apple...uters/Apple II/

3- Beagle Bros. Posters

http://beagle.applea...s.com/index.htm

I used to have an endless supply of these and whenever I fucked up a program we’d shoot holes in them. Great times! Great fun!

 

I figured I wouldn’t recommend any one specific manual, but instead provide the sources from where you can get almost everything and conduct your own learning; in your own style at your own pace. I would suggest picking up some //e manuals published by Apple as they are well written. Get something for the Hardware, DOS or ProDOS, Applesoft Basic, and perhaps a tech reference manual.

 

Sites to get stuff from:

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/

http://apple2online.com/

http://www.old-compu...s.asp?c=68&st=1

http://macgui.com/newa2guide/

http://www.applefritter.com/

http://www.macgui.com

http://computist.app...s.com/HC-2.html

 

I’m sure there are plenty more resources around, but these are good enough to get you going.

[JohnnyRockets]

Hi Keatah!

 

Wow! This is really great, thank you!

 

I'm saving this post and will be downloading these items this weekend!

 

I REALLY appreciate such a nice, comprehensive list!

 

 

JR

[Charlie_]

Thanks for this post.

 

I have an Apple IIc I got last week but can't do anything with it as I don't have a single piece of software.

 

I have a ADT cable on order but it won't be here for a few weeks. I didn't realize the ebay item location was Bulgaria!

[Keatah]

How much did you pay for it? ADT official website has all the stuff you need I believe..

[Charlie_]

How much did you pay for it? ADT official website has all the stuff you need I believe..

 

The cable was $10.00

 

I got a game from ebay today but it doesnt work. I am not sure if it is my system or the game. Ive never used an apple iic before so I dont know how it behaves.

 

When I flip the power on the disk drive makes some noise that reminds me of formatting on a C64 disk drive.

A second or two of clanking. Then it says CHECK DISK. It does this with the game boot disk in the drive or not.

I did have the drive out when I 1st got it and cleaned the head.

[magnusfalkirk]

Just a really stupid question here. You did put the disk in the drive label side up right? When the //c or enhanced //e says CHECK DISK it basically means it can't boot it. There are some older Apple II games that the //c or enhanced //e can't run because of changes in the 65C02 vs the 6502 and ROM chips. I'll see if I can find a list of the games that won't run and post it for you.

[Keatah]

I've never seen a CHECK DISK message on my //e in many years of operation. Can't say the same for the //c.

I bet that message is coming from the software on the disk itself?

 

What game is this you're messing with?

[Charlie_]

I've never seen a CHECK DISK message on my //e in many years of operation. Can't say the same for the //c.

I bet that message is coming from the software on the disk itself?

 

What game is this you're messing with?

 

Hi.

The game is called Dondra.

I should have some more games in a few days. In hoping the game disks are bad and not the drive.

 

What happens is I turn in the IIc and the drive moves to find track 0 , does a few loud tick,tick,ticks, when it does and the the screen say: check disk drive.

[magnusfalkirk]

I've never seen a CHECK DISK message on my //e in many years of operation. Can't say the same for the //c.

I bet that message is coming from the software on the disk itself?

 

What game is this you're messing with?

 

Keatah,

 

I'm assuming you're //e is an enhanced one. The only time you'd see CHECK DISK show up on your monitor would be if the disk was one of the few that won't run on the enhanced //e or //c. I'm not exactly sure why the //c shows that if there isn't a disk in the drive but that is what it does.

 

Official Ninja,

 

As far as I know Dondra should run on the //c. Have you tried cleaning the drive head? The other possibility is that, unfortunately, the disk is bad.

Edited October 16, 2012 by magnusfalkirk

[AtariLeaf]

I'm getting bored with my Apple II stuff, not sure what to do with it. Seems like I played every game and ran every utility. Seen every picture and wrote (or ran) every basic program. Now what?

 

So should I PM you my address or. . .

[The Usotsuki]

The //e firmware doesn't produce the "Check Disk Drive." error message. It just keeps spinning. The //c produces it after a couple seconds.

[Keatah]

I checked the .dsk download from asimov. It works on a real enhanced //e and AppleWin emulator.

[ianoid]

Thanks for the resources!

 

Given the popularity of classic Apple computing, resources online are limited. Why isn't there a community like Atariage for Apple II enthusiasts?

 

And for the life of me, why are there no comprehensive software atlases for Apple II? Not necessarily downloads but sortable lists.

 

Do you have any suggestions for networking with an Apple II? I'd want to use Telnet to check out some BBSes,, maybe Twitter. What else can an Apple II network adapter be used for?

 

Funny, I got a CFFA and for some reason I got the impression from the documentation that it would need to be formatted in Prodos and that I wouldn't be able to use it to move images from my PC or boot images from the CFFA. And then I figured that multi-disk games and disk writes would be hard for it. So I've barely used it. And now it's in storage.

[Keatah]

Thanks for the resources!

 

Given the popularity of classic Apple computing, resources online are limited. Why isn't there a community like Atariage for Apple II enthusiasts?

 

And for the life of me, why are there no comprehensive software atlases for Apple II? Not necessarily downloads but sortable lists.

 

Do you have any suggestions for networking with an Apple II? I'd want to use Telnet to check out some BBSes,, maybe Twitter. What else can an Apple II network adapter be used for?

 

Funny, I got a CFFA and for some reason I got the impression from the documentation that it would need to be formatted in Prodos and that I wouldn't be able to use it to move images from my PC or boot images from the CFFA. And then I figured that multi-disk games and disk writes would be hard for it. So I've barely used it. And now it's in storage.

 

Let me answer this in several parts:

 

PART - 1

I've found the question "Why isn't there a community like Atariage for Apple II enthusiasts?" to be rather difficult to answer. These are my direct observations. Agree or dis-agree as you see fit.

 

1- The Apple 2 series crowd is an older crowd. This is the number one reason! They haven't embraced the modern internet as much as the younger crowd doing Atari and Commodore has. An older (and more sophisticated) crowd will not have taken to the facebook era as much as gamers. In fact, while the Apple 2 had tons upon tons of games, it wasn't really the preferred platform when other conversions were available.

 

2- The Apple crowd, because it's older, is more concerned with real-life issues of aging and dying and sickness or other pastimes such as family and business, yachting, classic cars, real estate, and more "adult-like" hobbies and things in the physical world as opposed to the virtual world. Not to mention a lot of us are approaching the stage where dementia is right around the corner. I recently inherited a truckload of stuff from a dead guy, you don't hear of that happening too often.

 

3- The Apple crowd is a more sophisticated and serious bunch. We don't need a message forum. We build our own networks beginning with bookmarks and lists and personal contacts. We don't go for the frivolities and buzzing bizzy-ness associated with twitch gaming and obsessive behavior. We have more clearly defined priorities and know what we want.

 

4- The Apple 2 series is, to me, the "most serious" of classic home computing. Consider that much of the early software was done for business and practical purposes such as finance and databases, programming, science, education, however sophisticated(or not) those programs were at the time.

 

5- The Apple 2 series has no graphics or sound chips. The C64 and 400/800 and other micros of the era had nice ASICs to assist with audio and visual content, thus great games like Star Raiders and BallBlazer, and, well the list could go on! The Apple II had those games, too, but they weren't colorful, and ticks and bloops and beeps for sounds. The 2600, aside from the low resolution, has more sophisticated graphics than the Apple 2 in nearly every sense.

 

6- An Apple 2 series machine had tons of nice technical hardware. We had all kinds of modems, serial ports, clocks, printers, memory kits, hard disks, monitors, speech synthesizers, music synthesizers, buffers, drives, 80 column cards, CP/M, z80, a/d - d/a, test and measurement stuff, all sorts of industrial-grade add-ons with industrial strength pricing to accompany it. This is serious stuff when you pit it against a gamer's hardware selection like joysticks and controllers and twitch gaming software. So therefore, none of this stuff had the universal appeal throughout the ages, it was strictly there for performance and getting a job done. When its usefulness was outlived, in the trash it went.

 

7- An Apple 2 series is more difficult to get going. It requires actual critical thinking and some reading, as opposed to the fast plug and play nature of a VCS or any cartridge-based system. My lady can get a VCS going with some help. An Apple 2 would be out of the question. Most newcomers tend to be resistant to absorbing the ideas and concepts necessary for maximizing their experience on the Apple 2. An Apple 2 is about as close to bare metal discrete logic you can get and still have a capable home computer with any sort of staying power. I believe they ran the 2 series for 13 or 14 years from day one. Not too bad!

 

8- Upgrading a 2 series system is a technical delight! Or an intimidating challenge. You have to do everything yourself, and knowledge to do something is based on knowledge of something totally unrelated. Some upgrades required you to pull out a chip or two, and sometimes trim or cut wires or make jumpers. Some, but not all. And it was intimidating to open the cover, everything was 100% exposed. This was the cat's ass for the hobbyist, a single-board computer with graphics, sound, memory, cpu, rom, i/o, all instantly accessible! Schematics, rom dis-assemblies, signal timings, it was ll there, all open, all published, no secrets. In fact, one custom chip in 400/800 or C64 was as nearly complex as the entire Apple II+ was from the get-go; so simple and basic the 2 series design was. All of this combined to appeal to a technically educated user a hell of a lot more than a mere game computer. And people with this type of personality tend to become more eccentric with age and hole up. You got people scouring ebay and bitching about the prices and bitching just to bitch! And people ready to bash and bash others for little reason. This is in contrast to other classic computer users; lighthearted colorful and smurfy bubbly toy-like game players. We're talking a whole different class of users. A friendly bunch ready for a good time at the drop of a hat.

 

9- Apple 2 series users are snobbish and often times not a friendly bunch. They tend to be strict and less tolerant of bullshit, have a cynical outlook and believe they are always right and that their shit doesn't stink. Sometimes they're mature, too mature, to their own detriment. And yet at the same time some are the most capable of all the classic computing bunch save perhaps some VCS programmers. You've got to agree that the VCS is one of the most difficult platforms to code for. And the Apple 2, one of the easiest if you learn Applesoft Basic. Fuck man, I was writing 6502 assembly *IN* basic, I was that good.

 

10- The combination of business and productivity software with dull and boring and utilitarian hardware (add-ons) doesn't provoke passion like a good game of Slot Racers or Basic Math.

 

11- People have yet to realize the impact and booting-of-the-industry the 2 series had. The 2 series was the first affordable system that could be put into any situation and come out a winner, home and business alike. This notion is pretty boring when you compare it against the latest homebrew cartridge for a good hard-on. The 2 series platform is lame these days. Perhaps the renaissance has yet to happen.

 

PART - 2

Software lists? See the 11 reasons above. But most important, so much of the software was utilitarian business stuff and boring educational stuff. Nobody seems to find any of that important.

 

PART - 3

I have not really focused on Ethernet and networking on the Apple 2 series. There are far more knowledgeable folks that can answer network related questions than myself.

 

PART - 4

The CFFA is an important bit of hardware to the modern enthusiast. And with any versatile tool, there is a learning curve involved. Read the manual, ask the questions, learn something.It is important to know how everything relates to everything else in a system, where everything fits, what bit of software controls what hardware. It's all part of the hobby.

[Charlie_]

Official Ninja,

 

As far as I know Dondra should run on the //c. Have you tried cleaning the drive head? The other possibility is that, unfortunately, the disk is bad.

 

Still have not gotten any of my Apple II games in the mail. So tonight I said WTH, they dont work anyway. I have the top off my IIc and the drive cover off. I put the disk in upside down and used a qtip with alcohol on the disk surface as it was spinning. The surface was covered with a brown film! Maybe in a smokers room for years?

Anyway after cleaning the surface, I used an air can to dry it as it was spinning.

 

Flipped the disk over and BAM! The game boots up.

So my IIc is working, I just need my ADT cable and I should be set!