Is it high time the homebrew dev's/pubs were compensated for their efforts

[carmel_andrews]

I accept that it’s up to the homebrewers themselves, whether or not they wish to give their software creations away (i.e. free to download) or if they want to charge people for their software creations (i.e. paid for download, etc)

 

However having looking into this issue somewhat (focusing largely on the classic or retro hardware platforms, i.e. computers, gaming systems, handhelds etc.) I am lead to understand that less then 10 per cent of the ‘homebrew’ market is PAID FOR CONTENT

 

After all, look at it this way, since we are expecting (In the main) for homebrewers to create and publish/develop their software content for free (i.e they won’t get paid anything) how would you like it if for the same period it takes a homebrewer to come up with one piece of software, you were asked to work that same period of time in your work or job FOR FREE, remember, like I said, in the main, that is what we are expecting these homebrewers to do, I think you would agree with me that in both case and situations that wouldn’t be fair

 

Then a little idea came to mind thanks largely to Apple and their iTunes’s service

 

The idea was that the various and all classic retro platform web sites and services (including emulation and ‘ROMs’ sites/services) come together to set up a central ITunes like service so that homebrewers can upload their software creations (be it games or non games) and that for a nominal fee per download, people can download that software for their retro hardware (so long as the downloader knows how to reverse the emulator image back into that hardware original media format and has the means/tools for doing so) or emulator

 

The way the service would work is that those websites that are part of the iTunes like network, have the links for the homebrew software (for this or that retro hardware platform/format) on their site/service, once payment has been received (since you have to pay before you download) the site that the downloader is visiting then clicks on the link for the download and the central iTunes like service will download that file (or files) to the downloaders preferred system or device

 

To limit the possibility of people them re uploading the same files to filesharing places and torrent places, a sell back system will be put in place, where the downloader can ‘sell back’ the downloaded software at a later date for a nominal fee or get credit of future downloads, the idea is that if the downloader is able to sell back the software they downloaded or get credit of future downloads just by selling back the software, it removes or reduces to some extent the need to re upload that software onto to filesharing places and torrent places

 

An additional way to limit/restrict downloaders then re uploading that content on to filesharing places and torrent places and selling it on ebay/amazon/gumtree/CL etc. and similar is the following

 

Firstly all homebrew developers have to submit a CRC/SHA identifier for each piece of software they develop/create

 

Secondly all sites part of the iTunes like network has to attach unique encrypted serial numbers to each software download

 

Both the encrypted serial numbers and CRC/SHA’s for that downloaded software is then put into a database which is given to all emulator developers/authors for incorporation into their emulator (very similar to the way good tools/tosec works)

 

Each time someone uses a homebrew software with an emulator the emulator will search the database to see if that software being used complies with the information held on the database file (i.e. serial number and CRC/SHA identifier, if it doesn’t comply the software can’t be run, if it does comply the software will continue to load and run on the emulator

 

If downloaded software is ‘sold back’ to either the central iTunes like service or the site that bore the original software download link, that site will simply remove that software serial number and remove that serial number entry from the database issued to emulator authors/developers, this is so that if people have copies of this software that was sold back and use it with emulator, because the serial number details were removed the game or software won’t be useable on that emulator since the information held on the emulator database file won‘t comply with the serial number on the software

 

Obviously each time you use that or this emulator, you would need to be online for the initial executing of the emulator so that the emulator can download the updated database file

 

The thinking here is that this method of software validation will remove/reduce the possibility of people reuploading that software onto filesharing and torrent places as well as selling that software on ebay/amazon/gumtree/CL etc and similar

 

I accept that is won’t stop all of the homebrewers efforts from being downloaded from those sites or sold on on ebay/amazon/gumtree/CL etc and similar but it should restrict or limit that possibility in a majority of cases

 

At the end of the day if this service succeeds everyone wins since, the site that bore the software download link the downloader used gets a percentage of the download cost, as does the central iTunes like service and most importantly the homebrew developer gets a percentage as well,

 

the consumer wins since they get legally downloadable content that they can use with emulators and give something back to the developer/author of that program/software also it will open the classic/retro platform market to renewed commercial 3^rd party software development, since those developers/authors or publishers active in this market will get getting money for their software creations and if they are making money from their software creations won’t that just incentivise or motivate them to continue support that particular retro/classic platform (and apply that to homebrewers working on other retro/classic platforms)

 

As well as being able to download the emulator version of that homebrew software, those sites part of the iTunes like service network, will also be able to sell physical software versions in either original format (I.e. tape/disk/cart/CD) and since more and more retro/classic platforms are new supporting new media formats (NMF’s) like USB sticks/CF/SD cards and similar, sites and services allied to the ITunes service network will also be able to sell NMF versions of the same software which means the homebrew developer can earn even more money from his software creations as they will be available on multiple media formats

 

Another benefit regarding NMF’s is that if a developer/publisher is creating the same game or software on a variety of retro/classic hardware platforms, rather then release each version on a on a seperate NMF (i.e same game on each retro platform but on separate usb sticks or cf/sd cards), why not release all the versions of that game or software on the same NMF (i.e same game on each retro platform but on the same stick or cf/sd card), it saves on distribution and it saves on productions and manufacturing costs and also maximises sales for that one game or software

 

You could expand that idea further by having different games or software from various different retro platforms on the same usb stick cf/sd card, again, you save on distribution, manufacturing and production costs and you further maximise sales of each game or software

 

If this was implemented in this fashion the possibilities are endless since it would to a large extend open the classic/retro platform market to renewed commercial 3^rd party software development and possibly gain interest from mainstream developers and publishers

 

 

After all how many sites out there on the interweb are engaged in the retro/classic platform market and how many sites out there on the interweb are engaged in classic./retro emulation as well as classic/retro software images sites, in think in both cases we could be talking about the 10’s of 1000’s not counting the 100’s of 1000’s of people that congregate either periodically or frequently to those sites, no need to re-invent the distribution wheel, we already have that in place

[carmel_andrews]

I accept that it’s up to the homebrewers themselves, whether or not they wish to give their software creations away (i.e. free to download) or if they want to charge people for their software creations (i.e. paid for download, etc)

 

 

However having looking into this issue somewhat (focusing largely on the classic or retro hardware platforms, i.e. computers, gaming systems, handhelds etc.) I am lead to understand that less then 10 per cent of the ‘homebrew’ market is PAID FOR CONTENT

 

 

After all, look at it this way, since we are expecting (In the main) for homebrewers to create and publish/develop their software content for free (i.e they won’t get paid anything) how would you like it if for the same period it takes a homebrewer to come up with one piece of software, you were asked to work that same period of time in your work or job FOR FREE, remember, like I said, in the main, that is what we are expecting these homebrewers to do, I think you would agree with me that in both case and situations that wouldn’t be fair

 

 

Then a little idea came to mind thanks largely to Apple and their iTunes’s service

 

The idea was that the various and all classic retro platform web sites and services (including emulation and ‘ROMs’ sites/services) come together to set up a central ITunes like service so that homebrewers can upload their software creations (be it games or non games) and that for a nominal fee per download, people can download that software for their retro hardware (so long as the downloader knows how to reverse the emulator image back into that hardware original media format and has the means/tools for doing so) or emulator

 

 

The way the service would work is that those websites that are part of the iTunes like network, have the links for the homebrew software (for this or that retro hardware platform/format) on their site/service, once payment has been received (since you have to pay before you download) the site that the downloader is visiting then clicks on the link for the download and the central iTunes like service will download that file (or files) to the downloaders preferred system or device

 

 

To limit the possibility of people them re uploading the same files to filesharing places and torrent places, a sell back system will be put in place, where the downloader can ‘sell back’ the downloaded software at a later date for a nominal fee or get credit of future downloads, the idea is that if the downloader is able to sell back the software they downloaded or get credit of future downloads just by selling back the software, it removes or reduces to some extent the need to re upload that software onto to filesharing places and torrent places

 

 

An additional way to limit/restrict downloaders then re uploading that content on to filesharing places and torrent places and selling it on ebay/amazon/gumtree/CL etc. and similar is the following

 

 

Firstly all homebrew developers have to submit a CRC/SHA identifier for each piece of software they develop/create

 

 

Secondly all sites part of the iTunes like network has to attach unique encrypted serial numbers to each software download

 

 

Both the encrypted serial numbers and CRC/SHA’s for that downloaded software is then put into a database which is given to all emulator developers/authors for incorporation into their emulator (very similar to the way good tools/tosec works)

 

 

Each time someone uses a homebrew software with an emulator the emulator will search the database to see if that software being used complies with the information held on the database file (i.e. serial number and CRC/SHA identifier, if it doesn’t comply the software can’t be run, if it does comply the software will continue to load and run on the emulator

If downloaded software is ‘sold back’ to either the central iTunes like service or the site that bore the original software download link, that site will simply remove that software serial number and remove that serial number entry from the database issued to emulator authors/developers, this is so that if people have copies of this software that was sold back and use it with emulator, because the serial number details were removed the game or software won’t be useable on that emulator since the information held on the emulator database file won‘t comply with the serial number on the software

 

 

Obviously each time you use that or this emulator, you would need to be online for the initial executing of the emulator so that the emulator can download the updated database file

The thinking here is that this method of software validation will remove/reduce the possibility of people reuploading that software onto filesharing and torrent places as well as selling that software on ebay/amazon/gumtree/CL etc and similar

 

 

I accept that is won’t stop all of the homebrewers efforts from being downloaded from those sites or sold on on ebay/amazon/gumtree/CL etc and similar but it should restrict or limit that possibility in a majority of cases

 

 

At the end of the day if this service succeeds everyone wins since, the site that bore the software download link the downloader used gets a percentage of the download cost, as does the central iTunes like service and most importantly the homebrew developer gets a percentage as well

 

 

the consumer wins since they get legally downloadable content that they can use with emulators and give something back to the developer/author of that program/software also it will open the classic/retro platform market to renewed commercial 3^rd party software development, since those developers/authors or publishers active in this market will get getting money for their software creations and if they are making money from their software creations won’t that just incentivise or motivate them to continue support that particular retro/classic platform (and apply that to homebrewers working on other retro/classic platforms)

 

 

As well as being able to download the emulator version of that homebrew software, those sites part of the iTunes like service network, will also be able to sell physical software versions in either original format (I.e. tape/disk/cart/CD) and since more and more retro/classic platforms are new supporting new media formats (NMF’s) like USB sticks/CF/SD cards and similar, sites and services allied to the ITunes service network will also be able to sell NMF versions of the same software which means the homebrew developer can earn even more money from his software creations as they will be available on multiple media formats

 

 

Another benefit regarding NMF’s is that if a developer/publisher is creating the same game or software on a variety of retro/classic hardware platforms, rather then release each version on a on a seperate NMF (i.e same game on each retro platform but on separate usb sticks or cf/sd cards), why not release all the versions of that game or software on the same NMF (i.e same game on each retro platform but on the same stick or cf/sd card), it saves on distribution and it saves on productions and manufacturing costs and also maximises sales for that one game or software

 

 

You could expand that idea further by having different games or software from various different retro platforms on the same usb stick cf/sd card, again, you save on distribution, manufacturing and production costs and you further maximise sales of each game or software

 

 

 

If this was implemented in this fashion the possibilities are endless since it would to a large extend open the classic/retro platform market to renewed commercial 3^rd party software development and possibly gain interest from mainstream developers and publishers

 

 

After all how many sites out there on the interweb are engaged in the retro/classic platform market and how many sites out there on the interweb are engaged in classic./retro emulation as well as classic/retro software images sites, in think in both cases we could be talking about the 10’s of 1000’s not counting the 100’s of 1000’s of people that congregate either periodically or frequently to those sites, no need to re-invent the distribution wheel, we already have that in place

[+Stephen]

[Mclaneinc]

No one asks anyone to work for free or at all, that has to be the dev's choice.

 

However when they do and the product is worth it of course people can offer to pay or the dev can charge.

 

I don't think anyone has ever disputed that, yes many of the items produced are worth the money but that is up to the dev, my only wish is that IF they charge they have the common sense to make digital downloads as well (charged or not).

[Mclaneinc]

 

Have to say I didn't read it all, to be honest hardly any, walls of text, especially randomly / widely disjointed walls of text put me off.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Mclaneinc

[kskunk]

The thesis is: What are some ways to compensate homebrew devs for their efforts?

 

Without arguing the details of this proposal, I'd propose a new thesis: Is this article missing the point entirely?

 

Most homebrews account for hundreds of hours of skilled work, the best ones are thousands, spread over years. They often take a level of embedded engineering talent that fetches $40-$80/hour on the open market.

 

Now, how much will people pay for a digital download? Maybe $20 if they're devoted, probably not $40 unless they're getting something to collect. How many homebrew fans are there? Maybe 100 for something popular, maybe 1000 for the 0.1% of products that absolutely everybody MUST HAVE - like Harmony.

 

So, the maximum amount of money available for compensation is between $2,000 and $20,000. Meanwhile, fair (market) compensation is somewhere between $10,000 and $200,000, depending on the amount of work and skill involved.

 

Trying to develop a one-size-fits-all compensation system misses the point, since homebrew can never fairly compensate anybody. Every homebrewer has his own reasons for publishing - and none of them are financial. (Except for the occasional naive homebrewer, and he's going to be sad no matter what you do.)

 

So, you have to consider all the unique reasons: Maybe this homebrewer has a dream of sharing something truly collectible, and likes the idea of the value going up over time, and doesn't want digital to interfere with that dream. Or, maybe that homebrewer just wants everybody to have it, so free downloads don't bother him. Or maybe the other homebrewer wants to dangle a second run before adoring fans to see how bad they want it.

 

Point is, homebrew is not a rational multi-billion dollar enterprise like music, so bringing iTunes to our community is not the right fit.

 

- KS

[TMR]

The short answer is that, if people want to reward homebrewers, give them some money! Like my game? Click on the PayPal begging bowl on my website and say it with finance. i'm also open to gifts. [/shameless plug =-]

 

Or get a small collective together to run more competitions with prizes for programmers to enter and they probably don't have to even be big prizes because at least some programmers just do these things for the challenge so giving them that challenge will be something of a reward in itself. The models used by ABBUC or RGCD's C64 16K Cartridge competition are both excellent too, but the little 4K BASIC challenge here was a giggle, something like a 16K or perhaps 32K competition with a neat little prize or two may well work but consult with your audience (the programmers) before setting up.

 

The Atari 8-bit community could do with more publishers for software like Cronosoft do for the Spectrum, RGCD and Psytronik for the C64 or Atari Age for the consoles. i'd love to see Callisto on cartridge for example but, although i hang around here fairly regularly, i've absolutely no idea who to speak to or even if there's anyone even doing it right now.

 

One thing i usually recommend to people looking into starting their own publishing empire[1] is not to make things exclusive; don't tie games up so the only way to get them is through you on real media. Have digital downloads without DRM available to purchase or, if the programmer wants it distributed free in digital form, work with them and put the game up on Atari Mania and so forth. The publishing label then becomes a means for people to get a copy on physical media either for their collection or just to shove into a passing 800XL. Oh, and make sure you do the PR right, shipping review copies and informing people who need to know at publications like Micro Mart, RGCD and dare i say it Retro Gamer well beforehand because you wouldn't believe the hoops i've had to jump through to get things for review in the past... and if you're worried about sending digital images into the ether for review, there's always watermarking - it won't stop someone shady distributing your work but does at least let you know it's happened and who not to trust later.

 

[1] i get asked about this sort of thing quite a bit and have advised a few start-ups - i put it down to a combination of being a coder and the "day job". =-)

[DoctorTom]

I completely agree with your premise. Content should but paid for, as it reflects a lot of hard work and sacrifice.

 

Your idea has merit. Obviously, the implementation will be more laborious.

Edited November 20, 2012 by DoctorTom

[+Gemintronic]

Too much text. I guess you want to re-invent steam/iTunes/Google App Store?

 

I'd settle for an easy to use "Package Manager" where the end user can search on genre and platform. The program would then attempt to download the game or provide a link. Also, if no emulator is installed it could download or (again) provide a link.

 

Homebrewers who want to be paid go indie or join a studio.

[godslabrat]

As DrTom said, the idea is sound, but the setup and follow-through are likely to be problematic at best. You'd likely see any profit that SHOULD be paid to the programmer being used to fund the service itself.

 

One idea I'd thrown around would be to try to sidestep the cost of printing a cart. Get 6-10 homebrewers together, all of whom have solid games, and make a multicart. Instead of paying for 6 carts with a limited audience, you now have one cart that could be of interest to many other people. The homebrewers have a greatly reduced financial risk, and still get paid the same as if they released a single cart.

 

I call my plan "Like Action 52, Except It Doesn't Suck".

 

The drawback is, many programmers really want the satisfaction of seeing their labor-of-love on its own cart, and I respect that. Still, I'd really like to give this a try.

 

Edit: Spelling.

Edited November 20, 2012 by godslabrat

[+orpheuswaking]

 

[SlowCoder]

Please learn to cut your posts. I don't have time or interest in reading such long content. I did not read more than a couple paragraphs.

 

There are different reasons for people to write software. They may view it as a challenge. Maybe it's how they learn a language. They may see it as a way to make some money. Or they may just want to give back to their community. Not all of it is for profit.

[+Gemintronic]

Also, no need to duplicate your post. Especially on the same forum.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/205571-is-it-high-time-the-homebrew-devspubs-were-compensated-for-their-efforts/#entry2642692

[Cebus Capucinis]

The mods would like to take a moment to remind everyone that there's a report button, and also that we're not hiring, thanks. Locking thread to prevent further derailment.

[charliecron]

These days, with time so precious, and with so many options for entertainment, so many toys in my stash, so many hobbies, I feel like coders should be happy enough with the time and brain power I (or anyone obviously) might invest in simply looking at or possibly using their software.

 

edit: by the way I do think most coders feel this way..

Edited November 20, 2012 by charliecron

[+Firedawg]

Yes, put the "Donate" button out their and if your software is something I use quite a bit then I will compensate you for your efforts. I have done this quite a bit with small windows applications and games. Pay for what you use, rather nice concept.

[flashjazzcat]

These days, with time so precious, and with so many options for entertainment, so many toys in my stash, so many hobbies, I feel like coders should be happy enough with the time and brain power I (or anyone obviously) might invest in simply looking at or possibly using their software.

 

Unfortunately time's just as precious for the coders too, and while no sane person would expect to make a living out of creating software or hardware for a thirty year old computer, some kind of motivation is helpful, especially when one becomes involved in popular projects which become huge time-drains. The biggest part of that motivation might be the interest shown by you, the end-user, but without doubt when there's a great deal of contention for one's time, tangible support goes a long way when the investment of effort threatens to become disproportionately large. I would be disinclined to charge for software (unless it was presented on a custom cartridge or in some kind of collector's package which cost money to manufacture), and in my experience, once people know the "donate" button is there (and providing the product warrants it), they will show their support. I have quite a list of donate buttons I'll be hitting once circumstances allow, since if certain authors decided to turn their back on supporting the development tools I use, my task would be twice as difficult.

Edited November 20, 2012 by flashjazzcat

[+Larry]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

-Larry

 

[Cebus Capucinis]

I think one thread is plenty, thanks!

[Albert]

I merged the other two threads into this one. Please don't start another thread, thanks.

 

..Al

[Creature XL]

Oh the thread is moved here. What a pitty. I totally understand that however some people won't find it. I only read the A8-forums. Is it possible to make a kind of link in the A8 forum?

 

 

As most, I do the stuff not to make money. However, getting some is nice. I was asked by someone if he could donate money for "Mighty Jill Off". As we won money from at the ABBUC contest I refused. When we have time to update the web site with "HAR'em final" (soon to be released) we will add a donation button nonetheless. Never did that before, but I am curious what people are willing to pay.

 

The "iTunes"-thing is way to complex. In real life I am working in a German start-up. We do kinda cash-back. The bosses are jumping thru hoops since 5 month to make that possible. At least in Germany there are laws which apply when you handle money.

 

As long as no dev shares his negative experiences with a "donation button" I think that is the best and fairest option.

 

BTW, most emulators are open-source. So I would just need to put an "return" in your "checking function" I guess

[TMR]

As long as no dev shares his negative experiences with a "donation button" I think that is the best and fairest option.

 

i've had one for a couple of years and nobody has ever used it even after the shameless promotion earlier in this thread, does that count as negative? =-)

 

(i don't expect people to of course, and don't code for money because that'd be ridiculous... i'm in it for the groupies!)

[+GroovyBee]

i'm in it for the groupies!

 

So thats who that insane woman in the grey coat was at Play Expo? That explains it all .

[TMR]

So thats who that insane woman in the grey coat was at Play Expo? That explains it all .

 

Yeah, it's not really working out... she kept measuring machines with the hem of her coat in a dubious way and would power cycle my Spectrum every time she went past!

[yllawwally]

The multicart idea sounds good, except that the cost of the cart would be so much larger with a bunch of games on it, that few would buy it. If you wanted to give the developers of the games any money, the price of the cart becomes prohibitive. If you simply wanted to distribute more games on a physical medium, then multicarts are great. None of the people making 2600 games, can be doing it to even attempt to make a profit. I've been working on a game for 4 years(it still looks terrible, and is barely playable). I hope to someday to put it on a cartridge, and if I get enough money to go out to a nice restaurant, I will be very pleased. The idea of getting a game published on a machine that wasted so much of my youth appeals to me. Even if only 10 people might ever buy it. A section on the store here for buying the rom, would probably work, for most people. Maybe even an embedded emulator in Al's store, where you log in, and can play any game you purchased via a Java emulator. You're still talking a 100 dollars for a 100 hours of work.