Is it high time the homebrew dev's/pubs were compensated for their efforts

[StoneAgeGamer]

As DrTom said, the idea is sound, but the setup and follow-through are likely to be problematic at best. You'd likely see any profit that SHOULD be paid to the programmer being used to fund the service itself.

 

One idea I'd thrown around would be to try to sidestep the cost of printing a cart. Get 6-10 homebrewers together, all of whom have solid games, and make a multicart. Instead of paying for 6 carts with a limited audience, you now have one cart that could be of interest to many other people. The homebrewers have a greatly reduced financial risk, and still get paid the same as if they released a single cart.

 

I call my plan "Like Action 52, Except It Doesn't Suck".

 

The drawback is, many programmers really want the satisfaction of seeing their labor-of-love on its own cart, and I respect that. Still, I'd really like to give this a try.

 

Edit: Spelling.

 

This is good idea.

 

The multicart idea sounds good, except that the cost of the cart would be so much larger with a bunch of games on it, that few would buy it. If you wanted to give the developers of the games any money, the price of the cart becomes prohibitive. If you simply wanted to distribute more games on a physical medium, then multicarts are great. None of the people making 2600 games, can be doing it to even attempt to make a profit. I've been working on a game for 4 years(it still looks terrible, and is barely playable). I hope to someday to put it on a cartridge, and if I get enough money to go out to a nice restaurant, I will be very pleased. The idea of getting a game published on a machine that wasted so much of my youth appeals to me. Even if only 10 people might ever buy it. A section on the store here for buying the rom, would probably work, for most people. Maybe even an embedded emulator in Al's store, where you log in, and can play any game you purchased via a Java emulator. You're still talking a 100 dollars for a 100 hours of work.

 

Upfront cost of a multi-cart would be a lot. This could be handled via Kickstarter or bank loan. Kickstarter would be less risky way to handle it. Honestly I am interested in getting into something like this myself (well company is) and actually already have begun looking into costs, etc. However once upfront costs are handled then you already have PCB design, shell, and box design complete (for that respective system of course). New "Volumes" would be much cheaper to produce.

 

Honestly the online emulator idea I think is waste of time. Mainly because if you are going to spend that time programming something to run on an emulator that in turn runs on a computer then you might as well just make a Flash game or something and not be limited by the system's specifications. Most likely you are only going to attracting people who are into retro gaming and most likely they own the system as well, might as well stick with physical media and make it something thats not only playable, but collectible.

[godslabrat]

I'm not sure that the cost would actually be a dealbreaker. It'd be high, yes, but not out of the realm of reason. Here's what I'm looking at in terms of numbers:

 

$20 - Physical components of the cart (RetroUSB sells some homebrews for as little as $20, so obviously that at least covers cost. Yes, a multicart would require a custom board, but that's an issue that could be dealt with)

$18 - Assuming a $3 royalty is paid to six homebrewers.

$7 - 15% Profit for retailer, be that an actual store or being sold directly by the homebrewers themselves for a higher cut.

 

This would result in a cart that sells for $45, which is completely reasonable for a homebrew game, especially one launched at a convention. IF THE GAMES ARE ALL QUALITY, homebrew fans would see the value, but there absolutely MUST be quality standards. I'm thinking with the right lineup of games, even if the cart costs have to go up by as much as $10/unit, it's still a realistic project.

 

(BTW, if it matters, I'm thinking of NES homebrews.)

 

Also, I'm saying this not just as someone who'd want to sell a homebrew game, but as someone who really likes to buy them. I love new games for my old systems, but money's tight, and there are tons of homebrew games I'd like to pick up that I have trouble choosing just one. Getting a bunch for only slightly more sounds pretty good to me.

 

Edit: D'Oh.

Edited November 27, 2012 by godslabrat

[StoneAgeGamer]

I'm not sure that the cost would actually be a dealbreaker. It'd be high, yes, but not out of the realm of reason. Here's what I'm looking at in terms of numbers:

 

$20 - Physical components of the cart (RetroUSB sells some homebrews for as little as $20, so obviously that at least covers cost. Yes, a multicart would require a custom board, but that's an issue that could be dealt with)

$18 - Assuming a $3 royalty is paid to six homebrewers.

$7 - 15% Profit for retailer, be that an actual store or being sold directly by the homebrewers themselves for a higher cut.

 

This would result in a cart that sells for $45, which is completely reasonable for a homebrew game, especially one launched at a convention. IF THE GAMES ARE ALL QUALITY, homebrew fans would see the value, but there absolutely MUST be quality standards. I'm thinking with the right lineup of games, even if the cart costs have to go up by as much as $10/unit, it's still a realistic project.

 

(BTW, if it matters, I'm thinking of NES homebrews.)

 

Also, I'm saying this not just as someone who'd want to sell a homebrew game, but as someone who really likes to buy them. I love new games for my old systems, but money's tight, and there are tons of homebrew games I'd like to pick up that I have trouble choosing just one. Getting a bunch for only slightly more sounds pretty good to me.

 

Edit: D'Oh.

 

 

No retailer is going to sell it for 15% profit. If I were to sell something like this and I was the one who got it manufactured I would be looking for 40 to 50% profit (gross). However that's the least of the problems, first you would have to find programmers that would want to make 5 or 6 GOOD games for a specific system. Lets be honest, and I am not knocking any home brewer, I buy home brew games all the time, but most of them are terrible or at best just alright. Great for novelty, but as a game they often are not very good. To make a good game takes talent and time. Time is money. So it would be tough to find enough programmers to make these games for basically the possibility that this project will see the light of day and they would see profit some day.

 

That being said I would be interested in talking to some home brewers about this.

[carmel_andrews]

my point as made in the first paragraph of post 1, that at present because of the preferred business model (in the main) used by the retro platform market/emulation market is the ‘free to download’ model, unless someone can point me to a successful or emerging site or sites for the homebrew developer/author or publisher within the retro platform market/emulation market that allows the publisher/developer etc to upload content and that downloaders have to pay for that content, i.e. ‘the paid for download’ and split the sales/profits between the download site andthe original publisher/developer, this service in that context does not exist yet, therefore so far as the present homebrew developer/publisher etc market is concerned that opportunity does not exist yet, which means that they (the homebrew developer/publisher) are pretty much forced to give their content away for free

 

Since the type of service i suggested in post one doesn’t exist and given the ‘preferred business model’ by the retro and classic platform/format market and the emulation market as already stated, the homebrew community (i.e. developers/authors/publishers) don’t have that choice or opportunity since it isn’t one that available to them, the only choice they have that’s available to them (should they want to make available their software creations/content) is GIVE IT AWAY FOR FREE

 

Before anyone brings up 'star roms’, unless i am mistaken that site only focused on the coin op/arcade emulation market and if i recall correctly it only had a handful of coin op companies supporting said site (going from what i recall of it in the early part of the decade just gone)

 

It’s not the job of the developer/publisher to create the ‘paid to download’ market their job is only to support/supply the market or that market with new product or content, it’s the job of the market itself, i.e. the consumer and the existing market infrastructure to put in place the market for ‘paid for download’ services

 

If we look back at the beginnings of iTunes and what was there before, firstly there were other ‘paid for download’ service available as well as iTunes, but like the ‘Star Roms’ example they didn’t have the ‘critical mass’ of producers/publishers/artists on board, since these other sites were counting on other MP3 players being successful, Apple came successful, since they had both a hardware platform and also a software platform to support the hardware Apple were making

 

Apple as well as having the ‘critical mass’ of producers/artists and publishers on board, they also had the consumer on board, since they had a legal download service where the original content provider got their fair share and also the consumer got a legally downloadable product that was just as good as what was available on the free services or illegal download sites and more to the point they (the consumer) had purchased that content for less money than if they’d acquired the same content via more traditional means

 

Essentially Apple changed the attitude of the consumer in regards to downloadable music content, i.e Apple were saying that downloadable music content is no different to going into a music shop and buying a cd, LP or vinyl/music tape, point being that you wouldn’t just go into a shop and pick up a cd or LP etc. and walk out without paying (whilst I know that does happen in a minority of cases, it’s certainly not the norm) so why should you the consumer be effectively doing that by downloading music content from the illegal or free music sites

 

That is the point Apple were making with iTunes, since music downloads is no different to buying a cd/music tape or LP/Vinyl etc, music content isn’t free since it costs people money in order to get that content to you

 

Hence my point in asking the question posed by the subject thread in the first place

Here’s the point from another angle

 

I think it is fair to say that thanks largely to emulation, it provided a means of additional distribution mediums for the homebrew market to channeling their creations/content to, it also gave the impetus for the homebrew market to creating more product/content since emulation was available on a variety or numerous formats/platforms etc, not only that, lest we forget that new media formats used by the classic/retro platform market (i.e. usb stick/cf and sd cards) rely on and are only compatible with the emulation format, i.e ATR/D64/ADF/MSA etc

 

What if we didn’t have emulation (and related technologies/formats etc) or that it simply didn’t exist as a concept let alone a market, remembering of course that the new media formats used by the classic/retro platform market are based on emulation formats

 

Here’s the question, how would one go about acquiring new software for this or that retro platform if emulation didn’t exist

 

Simple fact, the only way one would be able to buy new software for this or that retro platform would be TO BUY IT….THAT IS BUY AS IN “TO PAY FOR SOMETHING”

 

Just to remind people of course, back in the day (unless we were pirates or engaged in pirating activities) didn’t we all go out to the software shops/stores or wherever they were selling new software for our games system or computer and go an BUY (as in TO PAY FOR) that software content

 

Now tell me this, if we didn’t have emulation, would there be as active a homebrew scene (without emulation) as we have now and without emulation (which means no emulation formats) how would the homebrew market get their content/product to the market

 

The answer to that question lies in the point made in the previous paragraph….i.e. we would have to PAY FOR and BUY that content

 

Yet the fact remains as pointed out in post 1 that the majority of content available in the homebrew market is free to download, remembering of course that the homebrew market doesn’t have a choice or opportunity to provide paid for download content since the market hasn’t created that opportunity/possibility or platform for it

 

Here’s the other point, If we actually had to buy software back in the day for our particular games machine or computer and that without emulation the only way the homebrew market would be able to get their content or product to the consumer would be for the consumer to purchase or buy it (as in to pay for that content/product), why are we not prepared to pay to download the same sort of software now given to us by the homebrew market via some emulation site or classic or retro platform site/service

 

After all, it’s still software; it’s still probably the same game or program, why are we treating software downloaded from some classic platform or emulation site differently to say a homebrew dev/pub. posting out to Mr/Missus consumer a tape disk or cartridge with exactly the same program on that medium

 

Unless of course people are saying that the quality of the current homebrew software market isn’t up to the quality standard as per the software we actually bought way back when and therefore we shouldn’t have to pay for that software, since it isn’t up to that quality standard

 

Looking at it another way, how would one go about getting music content if the web didn’t develop like it has done, simple…our only option would be to go out and buy that music content, and similarly if we didn’t have emulation, the only way we would be able to obtain or acquire new software content for this or that retro platform would be to buy it

 

BUY AS IN TO PAY FOR SOMETHING

 

Therein lies the problem and that’s why the mainstream market simply won’t take the retro/classic platform market seriously and certainly won’t see it as a legal, legitimate and commercially viable market, since the rise and success of the emulation market, which to a greater extent makes up the majority of the retro/classic platform market now (merely in regards to content available) has given the retro/classic platform market a very big CREDIBILITY problem which that market simple has not managed to and probably will never manage to shuck off, that is because of the preferred business model created by the emulation market (as previously mentioned)

 

I recall that one of the headings of one of the forum sections on this site is called ’COMMUNITY’, what does that mean or entail exactly, if that means that everyone is equal within the community and that everyone makes an equal contribution, if the latter is so, then why are we treating one part of the community (the software makers), different to another part of the community (the hardware makers), if everything and everyone in the community is equal, then perhaps we should be treating both the hardware and software makers the same way, i.e. if we have to buy the hardware, we also have to buy the software

 

FOR THOSE THAT DON’T UNDERSTAND OR COMPREHEND THE WORD/TERM ‘BUY’, IT MEANS ’TO PAY FOR’

 

Then again, since the attitude expressed here is one of ‘let the status quo remain as it is’ (i.e. the preferred business model created by the emulation market for obtaining homebrew software), then perhaps we don’t have that COMMUNNITY that we claim to have, since we are treating one part of the community differently from the other part

 

Or could it be that ‘community’ is just another one of those words (like LOVE) that gets horribly overused and banded about to the point where it simply has no meaning or very little meaning

 

If we are that ‘community’ we claim that we are, why aren’t we supporting that community by buying and paying for the produce/products that community creates

 

After all, how would human history have turned out if we didn’t create ‘the great silk road’, which for those that don’t know their human history, led to the development of trade and business?

 

Let’s support our homebrewers, I’m not saying they’re going to make bucket loads (never said that in the first place and i don’t understand why others were inferring and implying that I did) I merely said ‘making money’ as in making some money, a little money, any money or just enough money to recoup what they invested or spent in getting their product/content to us in the first place

 

AND WE DO THAT BY CHANGING THE ATTITUDE OF THE CONSUMER IN THE CLASSIC/RETRO PLATFORM MARKET; after all it seems to have worked to a greater extent in the online music market, so why shouldn’t it work for the classic and retro platform market

 

If we are this ‘community’ we speak of (and now I am referring to the whole classic/retro platform market as well as the emulation market) let’s act like this community and invest in the talents/skill sets that reside within the confines/realms of this ‘community’

 

In other words, let’s put a stop to this ‘something for nothing community’ attitude and give something back to the homebrew community/market

 

 

I can’t finish this post without referring to the individual who expressed the sentiment (visually) of ‘I am not reading that load of shit’ as well as the subsequent individual who either endorsed or supported the same sentiment (i.e quoting from the original poster)

 

Unless I am clearly missing something, which I probably am, the point of both individuals’ posts was for what possible purpose exactly

 

It begs the question, since they said ‘that load of shit’ (to which I guess they refer to post 1and duplicated post), what was the point of commenting in the first place if, as both individuals said ‘it’s a load of shit’…KIND OF CONTRADICTING YOURSELVES THERE, AREN’T YOU

[TMR]

In other words, let’s put a stop to this ‘something for nothing community’ attitude and give something back to the homebrew community/market

 

If the people producing the product are supporting that attitude, the people on the other side of the coin acting as potential consumers aren't really in a position to change things. If you were serious, when i jokingly mentioned my Paypal begging bowl earlier in this thread you'd have put a couple of quid into it and yet my balance still says at a depressing £0.00

 

It begs the question, since they said ‘that load of shit’ (to which I guess they refer to post 1and duplicated post), what was the point of commenting in the first place if, as both individuals said ‘it’s a load of shit’…KIND OF CONTRADICTING YOURSELVES THERE, AREN’T YOU

 

What people were saying (and others most likely thinking) is that you're posting large, impenetrable walls of text; it took you three paragraphs including this one to ask the question "why'd you post that picture" for example and you could've offered up the greatest idea ever and it'll still be lost if posted in that manner.

Edited November 29, 2012 by TMR

[+Random Terrain]

Things most people don't seem to like in forums:

1. Long-ass posts. If they want to read a book, they'll go to the library.
   __
   
2. Huge paragraphs.
   __
   
3. A bunch of tiny paragraphs that are basically one sentence long.
   

[+5-11under]

Things most people don't seem to like in forums:

1. Long-ass posts. If they want to read a book, they'll go to the library.
   __
   
2. Huge paragraphs.
   __
   
3. A bunch of tiny paragraphs that are basically one sentence long.
   

4. Numbered points.

[TMR]

 

4. Numbered points.

 

5. Someone taking a good joke and ruining it by doing it again... oh.

[+Cafeman]

6. In the time I took to read this entire thread, I could have worked on finishing a homebrew.

[Mr SQL]

I think the multicarts offer a direct platform for homebrew development today by enabling the option for soft releases of the game binaries much the way disk and tape facilitated the soft releases of the 80's.

IMO StoneAgeGamer already supports homebrew just by selling multicarts

[carmel_andrews]

Or even better TMR...

 

Limit each post on AA to 140 odd characters (i.e twatter like) and make everyone do texting

 

Kind of makes the whole point of 'forums' pointless then

[+Random Terrain]

Limit each post on AA to 140 odd characters (i.e twatter like) and make everyone do texting. Kind of makes the whole point of 'forums' pointless then.

 

Yep, we can either make tiny posts or gigantic posts that are as long as a chapter from a novel. There's nothing in-between.

[TMR]

Or even better TMR...

 

Limit each post on AA to 140 odd characters (i.e twatter like) and make everyone do texting

 

Kind of makes the whole point of 'forums' pointless then

 

Yes, if anyone were actually advocating such a ridiculous limitation you'd be right. However, all that i or others are saying is to keep the posts to a reasonable, manageable length and that's just common sense. 140 words (not characters, words) could've got that point across just as well if not better than the 1,300 plus you used.

 

Basically, what you're talking about is an iTunes style online store using some form of encryption system (which is probably best left to the programmers to devise) to prevent piracy or selling on of digitally distributed games. The store itself would be multi-platform, offering downloads for every machine with the operators taking a cut from the money paid. This paragraph did about the same thing in under seventy words.

[+Gemintronic]

I think the multicarts offer a direct platform for homebrew development today by enabling the option for soft releases of the game binaries much the way disk and tape facilitated the soft releases of the 80's.

IMO StoneAgeGamer already supports homebrew just by selling multicarts

 

With all due respect, I dunno about this premise. Flash carts may encourage download and play on real hardware but not actual purchase.

 

Unless the prices on flash carts come down I can't see them being used for batches of homebrew releases.

[Mr SQL]

With all due respect, I dunno about this premise. Flash carts may encourage download and play on real hardware but not actual purchase.

 

Unless the prices on flash carts come down I can't see them being used for batches of homebrew releases.

 

loon,

I agree, who would want multiple flashcarts? Just one can hold an entire library of games

 

But I think they are a direct medium for the software analougous to a disk drive or tape player in the 80's; you can purchase new homebrew games to add to your flashcart with ease and all the free homebrew games and demo's already offer a great incentive to buy one.

[+Gemintronic]

loon,

I agree, who would want multiple flashcarts? Just one can hold an entire library of games

 

But I think they are a direct medium for the software analougous to a disk drive or tape player in the 80's; you can purchase new homebrew games to add to your flashcart with ease and all the free homebrew games and demo's already offer a great incentive to buy one.

 

I think the difference here is the rationale between buying an album and buying an MP3 player. When you buy an album you pay for the songs listed. When you pay for an MP3 player you pay for the capability to store bootlegged music. Until the flash cart prices go down the utility of them will still be to gobble up pirated ROMzorxzomgz

 

I'd like a bare bones (i.e. cheap) flash cart for one off games. A Melody cart of sorts programmable by mere humans.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I think the difference here is the rationale between buying an album and buying an MP3 player. When you buy an album you pay for the songs listed. When you pay for an MP3 player you pay for the capability to store bootlegged music. Until the flash cart prices go down the utility of them will still be to gobble up pirated ROMzorxzomgz

 

I'd like a bare bones (i.e. cheap) flash cart for one off games. A Melody cart of sorts programmable by mere humans.

 

I doubt you will see memory card based flash cart prices go down much. The price will only drop if both the price of the components drops and demand slows drastically. Its a limited market and the only time we actually see them somewhat mass produced is when a Chinese company steals someone else's design and produces them in a somewhat higher volume. Even in this case they are often not super cheap. None of these "bigger" companies are interested in the R&D it would require to develop their own cart from the ground up.

 

Now a cheap single game PCB with no soldering required ($5 to $10) that could be flashed with the developers game may be a good idea (if its possible) to help home brewers distribute their games. This is something I wanted to look more into and have talked to KRIKzz about in the past. That way I could publish home brew games for the developers. Basically taking the boring work (assembling carts, getting boxes printed, labels printed, etc.) so they just have to worry about developing the game. Because of the Deluxe EverDrive carts we makeI actually have quite a few label dies already, so the upfront cost of the label die production is already handled. Maybe I will talk to KRIKzz more about it and see what he thinks on the PCB side.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Yep, we can either make tiny posts or gigantic posts that are as long as a chapter from a novel. There's nothing in-between.

 

You're right, there isn't. Albert has a secret e-mail address that gets a CODE RED alert whenever a post is between 400-500 characters, and he coded an algorithm (ALgorithm? BWA HA HA) that automatically nukes the post. Most of you don't know that, but then again, you're all just puppets for the Atarilluminati. Oops, I've said too much.

[+Gemintronic]

I doubt you will see memory card based flash cart prices go down much. The price will only drop if both the price of the components drops and demand slows drastically. Its a limited market and the only time we actually see them somewhat mass produced is when a Chinese company steals someone else's design and produces them in a somewhat higher volume. Even in this case they are often not super cheap. None of these "bigger" companies are interested in the R&D it would require to develop their own cart from the ground up.

 

Now a cheap single game PCB with no soldering required ($5 to $10) that could be flashed with the developers game may be a good idea (if its possible) to help home brewers distribute their games. This is something I wanted to look more into and have talked to KRIKzz about in the past. That way I could publish home brew games for the developers. Basically taking the boring work (assembling carts, getting boxes printed, labels printed, etc.) so they just have to worry about developing the game. Because of the Deluxe EverDrive carts we makeI actually have quite a few label dies already, so the upfront cost of the label die production is already handled. Maybe I will talk to KRIKzz more about it and see what he thinks on the PCB side.

 

If I could press LIKE any harder it'd cave in the left mouse button.

[sega_SHARK]

I guess I don't understand the problem. If developers make a game and it is offered for sale (and I think I will be interested in that game), I'll buy the physical product. I'm not paying for a ROM. If a rom is offered for a game that I want (as in Opcode offering the Pac-Man Collection ROM) I'll snag the ROM and see what else the developer is producing. If they have something else (physical product) in the works that I am interested in, I'll buy it. If StoneAgeGamer can find a way to get cheaper carts for developers, than that's a Win. The customer gets physical product, Developers can produce more games. Why would I pay for a ROM when I can find it for free in five minutes or less? Part of the reason I'm PAYING for a game is the accouterments.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I guess I don't understand the problem. If developers make a game and it is offered for sale (and I think I will be interested in that game), I'll buy the physical product. I'm not paying for a ROM. If a rom is offered for a game that I want (as in Opcode offering the Pac-Man Collection ROM) I'll snag the ROM and see what else the developer is producing. If they have something else (physical product) in the works that I am interested in, I'll buy it. If StoneAgeGamer can find a way to get cheaper carts for developers, than that's a Win. The customer gets physical product, Developers can produce more games. Why would I pay for a ROM when I can find it for free in five minutes or less? Part of the reason I'm PAYING for a game is the accouterments.

 

I agree. I don't think there is a problem ROM-wise. Most people in this demographic are not interested in a homebrew ROM, they want a cart or disc. Most home brewers only sell a limited amount because of the cost and labor of production. If there was someway to eliminate that expensive and time consuming part of it we would probably see more home brews. I mean Pier Solar sold quite well and was a higher production homebrew.

[TMR]

i don't have a problem with paying a couple of quid for a download, i did just that for Bob Smith's LumASCII on the Spectrum a week or so ago for example. But i'd be surprised if the majority of people buying 8-bit homebrew weren't doing so in part because they want the box on their shelf and the convenience of a physical cartridge, disk or tape. Apart from Bob who is just experimenting with the idea right now, i can't think of anybody just selling emulator images - they're usually an option in the shop alongside physical media.

 

The iTunes-ish store doesn't work because it adds extra overheads to do what's already possible but not popular enough to warrant on a regular basis for downloads and the logistics of going mental and doing an Amazon-style gig for physical media are truly scary unless it's done half arsed.