New Atari 520 st user

[Paul Westphal]

I just picked up a bare bones 520st for $20.00. Thought it was a good deal. My questions are:

1) what is the cheapest mouse I can use?

2) can I hook it up to my VGA monitor? and If I can how will it perform?

3) suggestions for a disk drive ( on the cheap ) or hard drive?

4) can I use my old win xp computer as communications / hard drive?

 

I Have been in the 8bit scene for a long time ( I have a 800 48k ) and thought it was time to update my hobby. Any and all suggestions are much appreciated! Now it's off to the Web to do some reasearch.

 

Thanks All!

Paul

[Paul Westphal]

I found the mouse and cable-Best Electronics...found a scsi adaptor too...

[MrMaddog]

VGA Monitors: You can pick up a Multi Sync cable from Best Electronics and use it with an Ambery Scaler box to use a VGA display. More details here... http://www.best-elec...om/monadapt.htm

 

Disk Drive: 520ST's don't have internal disk drives so you'll have to find an external Atari SF354 drive. You think you could use an IBM floppy drive but have to do some re-writing, I could be wrong...

 

Hard Drive: Yeah, you do need a SCSI adapter to use a hard drive, which you already got. Or you could get a Satandisk which lets you use an SD card as a hard drive.

 

To use your old PC as a hard drive, you can use either Ghostlink with a null modem cable or PARCP with a cross parallel cable. You can read more about it here: http://www.atari-for...php?f=14&t=1673

 

Hope this helps...

Edited November 30, 2012 by MrMaddog

[Christos]

Just for the record, ghostlink and parcp are more like ftp than a hard disk, in the sense that you can't execute programs remotely. Also a 520 ST isn't a good choice to add a hard drive too, it has too little memory to be really useful. You need at least 1MB of RAM but 2.5 are necessary to be comfortable.

If I were you, I'd look for an STE, add 4MB and an HD solution.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Indeed, STE is much better choice. If nothing else, just because RAM expansion is very easy - sockets.

Btw. PARCP works not well on faster. newer PCs. You need something under 1GHz for it.

[Dr Do]

While the STE does have the advantage of easy memory expansion, watch out for early production models that use SIPP connectors rather than SIMMs. I ended up with the former and was able to upgrade it from 512Kb to 1 meg with no trouble - however, due to the difficulty of finding SIPP memory larger than 256Kb (plus neeeding to desolder the factory-installed modules if I want to replace those with larger-capacity ones) I have been unable to go any further than that.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Dr Do

[amiman99]

Try to find the double sided disk drive for the ST the SF314 (dont forget the cable and PS). Then you could make some disks on your PC and play them on ST.

[tjlazer]

You will want to get a 720k disk drive so you can easily copy disks from a PC to disk, and most .ST or .MSA disk images are DSDD format so you will want this drive. The SF 354 (360K) is worthless, but better than nothing I guess. I have some SF314 drive for sale if you need one. (You can also convert a SF354 to 720k with a PC mechanism and hacking the top case to get it to fit, I have one of these and it works great)

 

I would get a VGA adaptor so you can use a PC monitor as a Hi-Res monitor. You can also get a cable to Composite video IF you have a RF Modulator. If you do not, it won't work.

Edited December 20, 2012 by tjlazer

[Dr Do]

I would get a VGA adaptor so you can use a PC monitor as a Hi-Res monitor.

 

I've just picked up one of these bad boys from eBay. Cost me GBP17.99, works a treat.

[Hatta]

What's a hard disk on an ST good for? Are many games hard disk installable? Is there a WHDLOAD work alike for the ST?

 

Do you really need more than 1 meg of RAM if you're mostly using your ST for games? If so, is there a mod for the 520ST that will allow more than 1 meg?

 

Also, what VGA adaptor is recommended? Do they do RGB into VGA or what?

[+DarkLord]

What's a hard disk on an ST good for?

 

Many, many things. Data storage, such as pictures, audio files, documents, etc,...

 

Are many games hard disk installable?

 

In the past few years, several sources such as Dbug, PPera, and Klaz have

converted/modified many Atari ST games to run from mass storage such as

a hard drive or SDcard. Also, they are usually adapted to run with more memory

and work with accelerators.

 

Is there a WHDLOAD work alike for the ST?

 

Not as such. There has been a few attempts, I believe, but nothing has emerged

that is as solid as WHDLOAD. However, given the number of games that have

been converted to work outright, I'm not sure it's really needed.

 

Do you really need more than 1 meg of RAM if you're mostly using your ST for games?

 

Most games will work fine with 1 meg of RAM. Its always nicer to have more memory,

and some games and software do take advantage of it. However, as you said, if you

are doing games only, or even mostly, 1 meg is probably just fine.

 

If so, is there a mod for the 520ST that will allow more than 1 meg?

 

Yes, there are a couple out there. Post a question about that topic here, or

at AtariForum. Search both places first, and you will find a few message

threads about it.

 

Also, what VGA adaptor is recommended? Do they do RGB into VGA or what?

 

Most people use a color monitor such as the SC1224. Some people with machines

that have RF out, use a TV, although the picture quality is not as good. Some people

have found various ways to send the ST's video out to modern LCDs. There's a lot

of different opinions on this though, and a lot of different results.

 

HTHs.

[Christos]

 

Not as such. There has been a few attempts, I believe, but nothing has emerged

that is as solid as WHDLOAD. However, given the number of games that have

been converted to work outright, I'm not sure it's really needed.

 

 

Well ULS is much like whdload technology wise. The main difference is in the mode of distribution. In whdload you download the program, the patches and the games on your own, while with ULS everything is included in one download.

[+CyranoJ]

Not as such. There has been a few attempts, I believe, but nothing has emerged

that is as solid as WHDLOAD. However, given the number of games that have

been converted to work outright, I'm not sure it's really needed.

 

Really?

 

 

1.1 What is ULS?

 

U.L.S. (Universal Loading System) is a means by which Atari ST applications can request disk access, or system function calls when TOS is not available, as is the case with most games and demos, and therefor run from any media (Including Hard Disks). Late in 2005 D-Bug released the first few ULS patched games, and then the system went into a bit of a slumber as we continued with Falcon patching. In August 2008, the ULS code was completely re-written from the ground up, adding new functionality, using less memory, running quicker, with more stability and making it much easier to implement.

It is hoped that the release of this code will kick-start the ST hard disk adaption scene, in much the same way WHDLoad has done for the Amiga. Indeed, ULS can perform many of the functions of WHDLoad, and offer serveral exciting new ones that were previously only seem in emulaton.

 

The tools and information have been freely available for years. What isn't there is a way to overcome the utter apathy in the ST scene towards fixing older games. There seems to be far more interest in seeing yet another textured, lightsourced, bumpmapped, 16 colour sphere rotate at ~3fps for some reason.

Edited December 23, 2012 by CyranoJ

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 

In the past few years, several sources such as Dbug, PPera, and Klaz have

converted/modified many Atari ST games to run from mass storage such as

a hard drive or SDcard. Also, they are usually adapted to run with more memory

and work with accelerators.

 

Not as such. There has been a few attempts, I believe, but nothing has emerged

that is as solid as WHDLOAD. However, given the number of games that have

been converted to work outright, I'm not sure it's really needed.

 

 

Most games will work fine with 1 meg of RAM. Its always nicer to have more memory,

and some games and software do take advantage of it. However, as you said, if you

are doing games only, or even mostly, 1 meg is probably just fine.

 

 

Yes, there are a couple out there. Post a question about that topic here, or

at AtariForum. Search both places first, and you will find a few message

threads about it.

 

 

I can agree with most of told. But some things people will never learn, it seems. You just can not port WHDLOAD for Amiga to Atari ST and TOS. There is many difference in OS and in game concepts. Already discussed here. Is WHDLOAD really so good, and better than Atari ST hard disk gaming solutions ? I doubt it - and there are many problems with patched games according to EAB - see section for ...

[+DarkLord]

Well ULS is much like whdload technology wise. The main difference is in the mode of distribution. In whdload you download the program, the patches and the games on your own, while with ULS everything is included in one download.

 

Yes, that would fall under my comment "there have been a few attempts..."

[+DarkLord]

Really?

 

1.1 What is ULS?

 

 

Yep, ULS is what I was referring to, when I stated, "There have been a few attempts...".

 

Thanks.

[+CyranoJ]

Yep, ULS is what I was referring to, when I stated, "There have been a few attempts...".

 

Thanks.

 

Well, I'm glad a proven tool, that has been used countless times to fix games for HD, freely available, with features not included in WHDLoad (state save, etc), that took hundreds of man hours to make, and runs 100% stable on ST/STe/MSTE/TT/Falcon can be called an 'attempt' - what a valuable use of someone's time.

 

See comment about apathy above.

 

And now, back to this.

 

Edited December 23, 2012 by CyranoJ

[sh3-rg]

It is now safe to turn off your ST...

 

As for CJ, just keep the hell away from him for all our sakes :-)

[Christos]

Yes, that would fall under my comment "there have been a few attempts..."

 

So in what way is ULS lacking compared to whdload?

[ggn]

 

 

So in what way is ULS lacking compared to whdload?

 

It's got a different name. Plus it's not commercial. D'oh!

[+CyranoJ]

Maybe it'll time expire at the next baktun.

[mimo]

Thank god there is no WHD load for the ST. What a minefield to set up and £££$$$$ for upgrades to be able to run everything

[+DarkLord]

Well, it certainly seems that I've inadvertently stepped on some toes because I didn't::

 

1. Mention ULS by name

2. Provide a link for downloading

3. Have banners strung up everywhere

 

so the best I can do is offer my humble and sincere apologies and bow out of this

message thread.

 

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

EDIT: After doing a little research, which admittedly I should have done before, I can

see now that it was ULS that Klaz and Dbug were using to modify the games. I did

not realise this before. So while I did give credit to Klaz and Dbug for modifying the

games, I did not *specifically* list the software/tools they were using. Apologies to

the poster who I replied to, my gaffe was certainly never intended to derail this

message thread to the point of a total train wreck.

[Christos]

No you didn't step on any toes. You just said that an equivalent to whdload isn't available for the ST. So it's not strange to ask you why you said that and what features of whdload are missing from ULS.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

This "WHDLOAD porting for Atari ST" maybe deserves little more:

 

As said already, porting solution for one OS, one hardware, games made for it, to some another hardware, OS and different concepted games is just not enough. Even if it uses same CPU.

I don't know much about Amiga OS and games. What know is that WHDLoad is master-slave concept, where master is not free, it contains functions callable from slaves - where slave must be made for every game separately. WHDLoad is more focused on 32-bit Amigas, and that's normal, since they are sold in much bigger quantity than Falcon, TT . The essence of WHDLoad is the way, how hard disk access is solved, good for games killing OS, using very low RAM. Actually, idea is simple: before game start save low RAM, OS workspace somewhere in high RAM, then run game. When some disk access is needed, save game's workspace, low RAM into high, copy saved TOS-es low RAM etc. back to original place, perform disk access and again save TOS WS up, copy game's back down, etc - there is much more, of course.

 

This is what is ported from WHDLoad into ULS. I don't know what more, OS specific things WHDLoad has, but they are not portable, of course. So, is hard disk access solution enough for most of Atari ST games ?

The clear answer is: no . Over 60% of Atari ST games use TOS for disk access + other things. I will not go here in more details - who is interested may find them on my forum.

 

ULS has some more less useful things added: like debugger/monitor, support for some specific cracks etc.

People know that Klaz uses ULS too for his patches. Well, it is not so simple - he uses "portions of ULS". But he added many of own solutions, code. Most important is support for TOS calling games. As he told me, he made library of most frequently used TOS calls in games, and can execute TOS calls from RAM, regardless from TOS version in machine. This is very important thing, considering mentioned over 60% of Atari ST games.

 

I did not expect that someone here will mention my HAGA as 'attempt to port WHDLoad ...' :-) Even if it is more similar than other solution : same master-slave concept, much more utilisation of PMMU by TT, Falcon (Faster disk access, 24-bit mode for TT) . Ah yes - this is another thing you can not port really , first because WHDLoad uses not PMMU for RAM swap (it was my idea), then port addresses are total different.

 

Finally, perhaps the most painful thing for Atari users : why is much less Atari ST(E) game hard disk 'installable' ? There is much more Amiga user around, more games too. Then, much more 32-bit Amiga users, and they want to play Amiga 500 games from hard disk - so, demand was just higher. I could add other reasons, but let's not spoil Xmas .

 

I still say that my solution without RAM-swap, by using TOS 1.04 core in high-RAM is best for ST(E) machines, and even TT, and again even Falcon (if user is willing to do couple simple things self). It is fastest, and ideal for TOS calling games - not to mention much less time needed to make adaptation than bothering with packing data for RAMdisk and similar. Packing is now obsolete - storage space is cheap. The reason why Klaz, and WHDLoad forces it is to avoid slow RAM swaps - by holding disk data in RAM, as much possible. This is basically back to RAMdisk in some way - even if 'RAMdisk is dead !' :-)

The proof: I have 2 versions of Sleepwalker downloadable: first is with packed data, 2.4MB, levels load slowly, better said, depack slowly . Instead repacking it with some faster solution, I just made version with unpacked game data, 6MB, where levels load and start very fast. And guess what, later is much more downloaded. Another argument against packing: you can do some hacks with game levels, code - and it is not theory, some people asked me for it, for some games.

 

For very end: WHDLoad is just not the best concept possible - it may be considered as very compatible solution. It may be slow and RAM hungry, especially if user takes not care about RAM usage.

 

Better concept, and very compatible, for Atari ST and 32-biters is: instead GEMDOS FAT16 filesystem (part of TOS) disk access using complete new, universal FAT16 filesystem code, good for diverse FAT16 types, like AHDI - up to 1GB parititons (Falcon), then usual DOS FAT16 types - up to 2GB partitions. Even FAT32 is not so hard to do. All it is present in Magic, for instance. Whole code should be not longer than 60KB. Then games would work fine and fast from usual TOS(AHDI) partitions, DOS partitions . Of course, it is not simple task. I'm thinking about it for years. But most likely will not go into. Not only because requred time and effort - there is huge lack of motivation, and I know that it will never get enough acknowledge.

 

Marry Xmas