Custom 5200 controller

[RetroGameGirl]

I'm late, but welcome to Atariage. Good to see another 5200 fan in the irc channel as well.

 

Thanks! Glad to be here !

 

That's far beyond anything I ever considered but it sounds great if such a thing could be possible in hardware. If I understand correctly, tapping the digital input would produce a mid-range resistance while holding the switch long enough would gradually move the value to simulate a 5200 analog stick/pot being pushed all the way over?

 

Stick controllers always give me a headache, especially when having to factor in games that expect either a 4-way or 8-way movement.

 

Actually, for the 5200 analog simulation I was considering using a small microcontroller, low power to tap off the +5V on the controller port) and then accept the very small analog resistance of something like a psp analog stick to then possibly drive a transistor "relay" type setup for an array of resistors to more accuratly simulate the analog feel. Of course there are other ways to do this as well, depending on how the stick is that you are using. You can also use an analog PC controller and add capacitors to it. Which you can look at here if interested -> http://www.atarihq.c...0faq/06_04.html

 

Either way I might see about maybe building another controller, perhaps into an NES joypad such as the NES Max. :>

 

 

PSP analog stick --> http://www.adafruit....CFWxyQgodxm0A2Q

 

 

Pinout for 5200 controller port -> http://old.pinouts.r...00_pinout.shtml

Edited August 4, 2013 by RetroGameGirl

[BigO]

woah, a trackball as the case? that seems like such a waste of the best controller atari ever made for the 5200 *cry*

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to destroying old hardware. The rusted up mechanical parts on this one made the pain bearable.

 

Also, I have a small pile of non-functional units so they don't seem terribly rare. I'll send you one if it will stop the tears.

Edited August 4, 2013 by BigO

[RetroGameGirl]

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to destroying old hardware. The rusted up mechanical parts on this one made the pain bearable.

 

Also, I have a small pile of non-functional units so they don't seem terribly rare. I'll send you one if it will stop the tears.

 

I will take you up on that LOL I would love to try repairing one, maybe do a video teardown and repair on my channel

 

Failing that, maybe converting it :>

[Jess Ragan]

Hey Retrogamegirl, since you seem to be pretty good with electronics, do you think you could find a way to connect a Playstation thumbstick to a Vectrex? Here are the pinouts for the system.

 

http://www.gamesx.com/controldata/vectrex.htm

 

There was an Instructables entry about this but they weren't especially clear. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

[RetroGameGirl]

Just a random thought I had when thinking about the original not centering, why not use a spring to pull each pots down to the mid position, I am illustrating it here with a rubber band as a proof of concept, but perhaps drilling a small hole under each one to attach a small spring that has a loop on each end, pulling it to the proper mid position. This would aid the original rubber boot. There are walls on each side of the pots that could be used as a possible mounting position.

 

 

 

I also had another idea, of using 2 springs to do basically the same thing, this might be useful for the bottom pot as the possible mounting positions are a bit limited without getting creative.

 

 

This doesnt do much for the button response, but that can be fixed with either gold contacts or other methods.

 

In place of a rubber band, I was thinking of using small springs, like these

 

 

Anyway, just a random thought on how to make the original joysticks self center without a huge modification.

 

Cheers

Edited August 4, 2013 by RetroGameGirl

[RetroGameGirl]

Hey Retrogamegirl, since you seem to be pretty good with electronics, do you think you could find a way to connect a Playstation thumbstick to a Vectrex? Here are the pinouts for the system.

 

http://www.gamesx.co...ata/vectrex.htm

 

There was an Instructables entry about this but they weren't especially clear. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

 

Why not do something like this ?

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14482990@N08/sets/72157620164985374/

 

They basically use a set of resistances to give direction.

[Jess Ragan]

That mod has given me a lot of trouble. I've been able to do it with microswitch joysticks, but never joypads. Apparently you need a joypad with separate grounds to make it work, but none of the pads I've used seem to fit that description.

 

Beyond that, I thought a thumbstick would cover more ground, offering compatibility with the system's two analog games.

[RetroGameGirl]

That mod has given me a lot of trouble. I've been able to do it with microswitch joysticks, but never joypads. Apparently you need a joypad with separate grounds to make it work, but none of the pads I've used seem to fit that description.

 

Beyond that, I thought a thumbstick would cover more ground, offering compatibility with the system's two analog games.

 

True, I don't have a vectrex to test that sort of thing on so I have not really considered solutions for it. The most experience I have with that console is recapping the board to get them working again, and that was years ago for a friend.

 

Edit:

 

I did look on indestructibles and came across this http://www94.pair.com/jsoper/vec_psx_adap.html

 

That looks like a neat solution.

Edited August 4, 2013 by RetroGameGirl

[Charlie_]

 

Anyway, just a random thought on how to make the original joysticks self center without a huge modification.

 

Cheers

 

Cool Ideas. One thing though, The nipple on the end of the swing arms attached to the pots can not be modified or interfered with.

They are what fit into the slots of axis slide plates. So anything attached to them would make them not work. Probably couldn't even put the stick back together.

 

Maybe an extension that sticks out below the nipple...

[RetroGameGirl]

Cool Ideas. One thing though, The nipple on the end of the swing arms attached to the pots can not be modified or interfered with.

They are what fit into the slots of axis slide plates. So anything attached to them would make them not work. Probably couldn't even put the stick back together.

 

Maybe an extension that sticks out below the nipple...

 

Thats what I said XD "here with a rubber band as a proof of concept, but perhaps drilling a small hole under each one". I was thinking of a small hole, then fitting a tiny screw, similar to how you hook up a servo for a model airplane.

Edited August 4, 2013 by RetroGameGirl

[BigO]

That mod has given me a lot of trouble. I've been able to do it with microswitch joysticks, but never joypads. Apparently you need a joypad with separate grounds to make it work, but none of the pads I've used seem to fit that description.

 

Beyond that, I thought a thumbstick would cover more ground, offering compatibility with the system's two analog games.

The thumbstick itself should work just fine with the Vectrex as long as there isn't any of the original PS circuitry hanging around in the way. A Vectrex controller is pretty straight forward and would really be fairly easy to build, even from scratch with a PS thumbstick. The Vectrex uses the joystick potentiometers in a voltage divider mode so it isn't subject to as much of the weirdness that you may have encountered in trying to build/modify 5200 controllers or 2600 paddle controllers.

[BigO]

Thats what I said XD "here with a rubber band as a proof of concept, but perhaps drilling a small hole under each one". I was thinking of a small hole, then fitting a tiny screw, similar to how you hook up a servo for a model airplane.

 

I don't think mechanical self-centering is going to result in completely satisfactory results. There's no guarantee that the individual games see the exact same resistance level as "center". And, the A/D conversion method used in the 5200 is subject to "drift" so center isn't necessarily going to be in the same place.

 

I had to "trim" the joystick differently from game to game to get the mechanically centered joystick to represent the logical center in the game display. The 5200 controller lacks that trimming adjustment. I suspect that the lack of self-centering was, to some degree, part of a cost cutting effort. Without it, the trimming isn't necessary: fewer parts = lower cost.

[7800]

Speaking of self-centering sticks, I just bought the popular Wico Command stick for the 5200... along with the rare keypad unit. I gotta say, I'm not too enthusiastic of the Wico stick. I think the stick has too much travel. I actually like the CX-52 stick better. Notice I said I like the STICK better.... The fire buttons are still terrible. LOL!

[bohoki]

i think there is a simple circuit you can use to convert pads if you feel like making each button individual

 

using 240k ohm resistors

 

[7800]

Me, trying to understand that is comparable to the picture below. LOL!

 

[BigO]

i think there is a simple circuit you can use to convert pads if you feel like making each button individual

 

using 240k ohm resistors

 

Heh, the CAPTCHA of electronic schematics. Edited August 6, 2013 by BigO

[Lynxpro]

I specifically joined the forum for this thread LOL

But now that I am here, I am taking a look into perhaps software development. I have a few ideas that might be fun. I am mostly a hardware person, so software is my weak side.

We all have to start somewhere!

The little 5200 controller in the atari 2600 case (it used to be E.T.) was a fun experiment that I may recreate as it has been years since I did that build.

 

 

Years? Have you been doing this extraordinary work since you were 5? Welcome here, by the way!

 

 

woah, a trackball as the case? that seems like such a waste of the best controller atari ever made for the 5200 *cry*

 

 

That's why I mentioned earlier that mods should only be done to "broken" TrakBall controllers...

 

 

YAY!

It really is one of my favorite retro controllers of all time

Rather see someone kill an NES controller instead.

 

 

That's preaching to the choir on an Atari enthusiast website. Next, we'll have a bonfire fueled by Commodore 64s and Vic-20s!

 

 

I guess you haven't tried the Atari 7800 Painline controllers or the Intellivision Finger-Tip-Remover controllers or Coleco's Sit-n-Spin controller knobs designed for the hands of a three-year-old. I love all these systems but their controllers were far worse than the 5200 controllers. Finally Nintendo started to get it right although some of the after-market controllers were pretty decent like the Suncom Tac-2. Yea, the Sega Master system controllers weren't too bad as well.

 

I liked the PainLine controllers.

 

However, my favorite joystick of that era was the Epyx 500XJ. They did make an NES version.

[bohoki]

i modded a nes epyx to work on my 5200 and modded an apple epyx for full analogness

 

but i dont like them much

[Lynxpro]

i modded a nes epyx to work on my 5200 and modded an apple epyx for full analogness

 

but i dont like them much

 

Just out of curiosity, does the NES and Apple versions of the Epyx 500XJ have more than 1 fire button?

 

 

As for the NES MAX above in Retrogirl's posts, I'd imagine that would be a nearly perfect controller - for a game pad - for Tempest, 720 Degrees, and Gyruss on a MAME unit, and Tempest 2000 on the Jaguar...

 

I think Gyruss is my all-time favorite non-Atari [Atari badged Namco titles count as "Atari" in this dojo] arcade game, with Galaga coming up a close second. I can't say I've played the 5200 version of Gyruss. I'm still cheesed off that the version sold on Xbox Live is the crummy NES port despite it being advertised as the arcade version. I nearly wore out the trackpad and mouse button on this MacBook playing it via MAME.

[Jess Ragan]

The thumbstick itself should work just fine with the Vectrex as long as there isn't any of the original PS circuitry hanging around in the way. A Vectrex controller is pretty straight forward and would really be fairly easy to build, even from scratch with a PS thumbstick. The Vectrex uses the joystick potentiometers in a voltage divider mode so it isn't subject to as much of the weirdness that you may have encountered in trying to build/modify 5200 controllers or 2600 paddle controllers.

 

You'd think that. I tried connecting the thumbstick to the Vectrex both with and without resistors, and all I could get was make the screen shrink and grow by moving the stick. (This was probably not so good for the Vectrex in hindsight.) If you've got any suggestions or advice for me, I'd definitely appreciate them!

Edited August 8, 2013 by Jess Ragan

[bohoki]

 

they seem neat but they get unconfortable forcing my middlefinger to do the second button

[BigO]

You'd think that. I tried connecting the thumbstick to the Vectrex both with and without resistors, and all I could get was make the screen shrink and grow by moving the stick. (This was probably not so good for the Vectrex in hindsight.) If you've got any suggestions or advice for me, I'd definitely appreciate them!

My first suggestion is the "Thank you, Captain Obvious!" answer: be sure you're hooking it up right. If memory serves, the joystick in the Vectrex is 10K ohm and so are most of the thumbsticks I've run across. Electrically, I think it's fair enough to call the thumbsticks direct replacements for the Vectrex stick. (I'm most familiar with the thumbsticks from a PS2 controller)

 

The most helpful advice I can think of is to make sure you understand the operational theory of a voltage divider before you try it again. With a firm grasp of that concept, it really should be a fairly straight forward effort to make a Vectrex controller from a thumbstick.

 

The behavior you describe wouldn't be inconsistent with wiring the pots wrong and trying to almost short circuit the connections between the +5 and -5 volt supplies. The +5 and -5 should be connected to the "outer" terminals of the pot. The resistance between those points (and therefore the load on the power supply) will not change as a result of moving the thumbstick. The remaining wire (typically the middle one) is the input to the analog to digital converter. Considering one axis of the controler: the voltage on that middle pin with, respect to ground, will approach +5v with the stick moved to one extreme and -5v with the stick moved to the other extreme.

Edited August 12, 2013 by BigO

[Jess Ragan]

Uh, I don't understand the voltage divider concept. I'm looking it up on Wikipedia now, but is there any site out there that explains it in layman's terms? What I'm getting is that it's a circuit that decreases voltage, but I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Okay, you're saying I put -5 on the left pin of the thumbstick and +5 on the right. What goes on the middle? You mentioned an analog to digital converter... would that be a specific logic chip? I'm guessing you can't just connect the middle line straight to horizontal and be done with it.

[Atariman]

But now that I am here, I am taking a look into perhaps software development. I have a few ideas that might be fun. I am mostly a hardware person, so software is my weak side.

 

Curiously enough, I have an easier time with software than hardware and also attempted (but failed) to use a digital pot and a PIC a couple years ago. I hand-built a decent chunk of the circuitry and merely succeeded at making the digital pot VERY warm - I have been meaning to take another crack at it. (I was a bit rusty when it came to hardware at that point).

 

I found a digital pot with decent resolution at the time, but never really checked to see if it had a linear output. I need to dig out the little dual-output IC I picked up and try it again...

 

Anyway, welcome! Nice to see a fellow microcontroller user around.

[BigO]

Uh, I don't understand the voltage divider concept. I'm looking it up on Wikipedia now, but is there any site out there that explains it in layman's terms? What I'm getting is that it's a circuit that decreases voltage, but I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Okay, you're saying I put -5 on the left pin of the thumbstick and +5 on the right. What goes on the middle? You mentioned an analog to digital converter... would that be a specific logic chip? I'm guessing you can't just connect the middle line straight to horizontal and be done with it.

The analog to digital converter is part of the Vectrex circuitry.

 

Have you looked at the Vectrex controller schematic? I kinda get the impression that you're taking the shotgun approach to this. While I find that an effective technique, sometimes you have to dig in and really understand the basics. http://vectrexmuseum...T/SERVICE/5.GIF

 

Sorry, you guessed wrong. If you study the schematic, you'll see that the center terminal (wiper) does connect directly to the input, be it X or Y (horizontal or vertical). Two axes, two inputs. R601 and R603 are there to limit the total current flow (load on the power supply) You should be able to build that same circuit pretty easily with two resistors and two potentiometers (one thumbstick).

 

(For the sake of this exercise, ignore R604 and R607 in the schematic above. We can talk about that when your controller almost works but has one annoying deficiency )

 

Do you know Ohm's law? If so, we have a solid starting point for a technical discussion of voltage dividers. If not, I'd strongly advise learning it. It's an extremely important foundation for understanding this stuff.

 

From a layman's perspective...not sure if I've ever seen a description of a voltage divider. Conceptually it's not extremely complex but I can't really think of a good analogy though.

Basically, if you have +5 volts at one end of a resistor and -5 volts at the other end and measure the voltage in the middle it will read 0 volts.

If you have 1000 volts on one end and 0 volts on the other end, the middle will read 500 volts (but you'd better have a lot of total resistance!).

 

This brings up another concept that you really have to understand. How do I measure it? There's an abbreviation you'll see fairly often: WRT. This means With Respect To. Quite often it's WRT ground. In terms of using a volt meter, that means where to put the negative probe.

 

In talking about +5v and -5v, you have to know what the reference is. Somewhere in the circuit is a 0v point, often referred to as ground or common. If you put the negative probe of your voltmeter on ground and the positive probe on the +5v, you'll measure +5v. That's why we say it's +5v. However, if you measure between the +5v (call it terminal A) and -5v (call it terminal B) terminals with your negative probe on -5, you'll read +10 volts. You've just read the voltage at A with respect to B. If you measure between ground and terminal A, you've just measured the voltage at A with respect to Ground.

 

Another fundamental to address might be the concept of how the potentiometer itself works. You won't be able to see the relevance of the voltage divider concept without understanding what's going in inside the pot.

 

I'll see if I can find some decent references.

Edited August 14, 2013 by BigO