Shooting on A8...

[José Pereira]

With this idea from Eagle's and turn it into something real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ahbTHZnEvg4

Mixing it with a 'kind of' C64 DELTA:

 

 

FIRST: Emkay, from what I have in mind I don't want to use GR.7 on the Middle part of the screen, O.K.?

SECOND: Just to share an idea and how I think it can work

THIRD: Listening opinions.

 

 

I want to build this three part type where Top and Bottom are scrolling zones. Middle part would not need scroll as the Enemys are soft sprites.

I would have one charset for the Ground gfxs (same charset on Top and Bottom) and a second charset for the MIddle part (soft sprites on the Enemy's ships).

 

-> Black as BACKGROUND Register (00)

-> PMGs:

PM0&PM1 Multicolour 10pixels wide on our ship

P2 & P3 to have those 'circle moving' second weapon around our ship

M2 and M3 are screen stars

PRIOR2 so that the Enemys soft sprites goes over gfxs.

-> If like C64 size then (with shifting) 7Enemys x 16chars each = 112chars

-> The remaining chars for Horizontal front and back of our ship shooting as PF0 (White) chars moving in char steps/boundaries

 

 

About Collision hardware detection:

-> Enable hardware collision

-> All 4Players + M0/M1 between PFs (because you can't touch Ground nor Enemy's ships)

-> No collision detection between 4Players because you can't be destroyed if you touch a back stars pixel (that are M2/M3)

-> Our horizontal chars have to be done by software as it's White (PF0) shot overlaying soft sprites (using PFs)

 

 

 

 

Enemys as are only overlaying (00) are less cycle use and even 'pre-shifted' so can we get around the 7 ships like C64 DELTA?

(and still playing some music around?)

[José Pereira]

P.s.- Taking in account opinions at this on the A8/5200 Programming Forum: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/206150-collision-registers/

[José Pereira]

;-)Oops, Emakay is writing something here... what he is going to say ?

[Creature XL]

Have you seen HAR'em?

It's almost what you want. Except I use all PMG for the 6 color ship. Wouldn't be much of a problem to use two of them for the circling weapon.

 

I have five 9x16 enemies and up to 10 shots on screen (6 player shots and 4 enemy shots). I am using "real" 5x8 sprites for the shots, that is 4 chars instead of one.

The advantage: Shots can move freely

Disadvantage: Dead slow. 10 is maximum

 

The 5+10 sprites are the max (for 50Hz). As you have to concider collisionchecks and other game logic.

BTW, the 8x16 sprites aren't doing any masking, as you can see when they overlap.

I am not saying that my sprite routines are the fastest, but you cannot go much faster. Loops aren't unrolled f.e.

But consider further, the 62k are (almost) used to full extend (RMT is a bitch). That is one of the reason there are only two levels.

 

PS:

The shot-sprites WERE masking teh background. ATM I am optimizing for teh final release. And I have decided to remove the masking "AND/OR".

Looks still Okay.

[José Pereira]

If you have the shots as chars steps moving would you get, at least, one more sprite?

(Are you in ANTIC4 as I understand you're 'ping-pong' talking with Emkay on another Topic, right? It seems that, at least the Grounds are only in 3colours more Black)

 

 

By the way, if C64 it's moving in 1 Hi-Resolution step couldn't we move in 25f.p.s.?

(Even if beter looking wouldn't 50f.p.s. beeing to fast (I am still with computer boxed at home so couldn't tried Har'em nor any other from ABBUC contest)?

 

 

CrtXL how many charlines you're using?

-> Top scrolling

-> Bottom scrolling

-> Middle part (I think that on Middle part there's no hardware scrolling enabled as it is not needed, right?)

 

And you have what?

4charsets like: Status Area, Top, Middle and Bottom?

Edited December 5, 2012 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

Oh! Emkay is not writing anything into here anymore...

Come on MK I was just kidding.

Edited December 5, 2012 by José Pereira

[TMR]

By the way, if C64 it's moving in 1 Hi-Resolution step couldn't we move in 25f.p.s.?

 

It's moving the landscape at three pixels a frame by the look of it.

[José Pereira]

DEL.

Edited December 5, 2012 by José Pereira

[TMR]

 

You're saying Lanscape the Grounds right or it's the chars of the stars?(As if I remember correct, isn't C64 scrolling gfxs in Hi-resolution pixels but hardware sprites can only move like A8 colour clock one 2:1 ratio pixel?)

 

No, C64 hardware sprites move in half colour clock steps like the hardware scroll does and the landscape in Delta is moving the equivalent of one and a half multicolour pixels a frame.

[Creature XL]

If you have the shots as chars steps moving would you get, at least, one more sprite?

(Are you in ANTIC4 as I understand you're 'ping-pong' talking with Emkay on another Topic, right? It seems that, at least the Grounds are only in 3colours more Black)

 

 

By the way, if C64 it's moving in 1 Hi-Resolution step couldn't we move in 25f.p.s.?

(Even if beter looking wouldn't 50f.p.s. beeing to fast (I am still with computer boxed at home so couldn't tried Har'em nor any other from ABBUC contest)?

 

 

CrtXL how many charlines you're using?

-> Top scrolling

-> Bottom scrolling

-> Middle part (I think that on Middle part there's no hardware scrolling enabled as it is not needed, right?)

 

And you have what?

4charsets like: Status Area, Top, Middle and Bottom?

 

Grounds are in 3+1 colors in the ABBUC-version. But in the final version it will be 4+1.

HAR'em scrolls with 25Hz in the first two levels. The "final" will repeat these two levels in double speed. So you can compare 25Hz and 50Hz scrolling. %0Hz is pretty fast, i never beat that version. Not even with 15 ships

 

Sprites (ship, shots and some enemies) move in fractional steps. Of course that isn't smooth, but otherwise it wouldn't be possible to move shots and enemies in an arbitrarily angle. Which is a absolute must for the shots, else they wouldn't be aimed at the ship's position.

 

Top and bottom 4 char-lines (32 scan-lines) in 48 byte mode

Middle 20 char-lines, which I know regret. It's a must for a better gaming experience, else it would be too narrow, but the lost 16 scan-lines hurt.

As mentioned thousands times, it was a quickhack and so no double buffering is used.

 

More timing related stuff: The 5 bigger sprites get totally drawn in the VBlank area, I think some shots as well.

And another thing, the PM rendering takes around 10 scan-lines. Do not forget these

i think it is obvious that HAR'em only works properly in PAL

[+CharlieChaplin]

Have you seen HAR'em?

It's almost what you want. Except I use all PMG for the 6 color ship. Wouldn't be much of a problem to use two of them for the circling weapon.

 

I have five 9x16 enemies and up to 10 shots on screen (6 player shots and 4 enemy shots). I am using "real" 5x8 sprites for the shots, that is 4 chars instead of one.

The advantage: Shots can move freely

Disadvantage: Dead slow. 10 is maximum

 

The 5+10 sprites are the max (for 50Hz). As you have to concider collisionchecks and other game logic.

BTW, the 8x16 sprites aren't doing any masking, as you can see when they overlap.

I am not saying that my sprite routines are the fastest, but you cannot go much faster. Loops aren't unrolled f.e.

But consider further, the 62k are (almost) used to full extend (RMT is a bitch). That is one of the reason there are only two levels.

 

PS:

The shot-sprites WERE masking teh background. ATM I am optimizing for teh final release. And I have decided to remove the masking "AND/OR".

Looks still Okay.

 

Hmm,

 

so we end up with HAR`em being a great shmup that has only two levels... how sad. How about using 128k (Atari 130XE) so we can have at least four levels ?!? Or even better: Load the main program (the engine) into base 64k RAM and then use multi-stage loads from disk to load further levels. The game needn`t be a single file, that loads all code into RAM at once, it could be a bootdisk or a multi-file disk (or a cart. with almost unlimited space)... but I guess the decision has already been made here.

 

-Andreas Koch.

Edited December 5, 2012 by CharlieChaplin

[Creature XL]

Hmm,

 

so we end up with HAR`em being a great shmup that has only two levels... how sad.

 

Come on. Chill out.

It was NEVER about "HAR'em is the best"! It was only a comment about the technical stuff he proposed which is (almost) all implemented in HAR'em.

And as he said, he has not seen HAR'em. So, maybe this thread would never even have started. FFS

[José Pereira]

Hey, hey, I never talk in your game.

You know that I can't code but can easilly see how things are (thanks to teachers like you and many others...) so of course I saw similarities between Har'em and Delta.

But I never said your game names and it was you that kindly explained I was thinking the same way and started to talk about yours.

After that I've just put you some questions.

If I was compare then on the start I put Eagle' s Embex.

(there's even a Delta thread created by me at FormatWar before anyome know or seen your game)

 

This thread it's about ways of doing 'a kind of' Delta on A8.

Proablem is that you didn't like Andreas comment.

But even if I think Andreas just want to say he want a longer game he probably used the wrong words. And of course that comments about your or any others game are out of the intention of this Thread.

 

 

Have said.

[Creature XL]

But even if I think Andreas just want to say he want a longer game he probably used the wrong words

 

Thing is, everybody wants a longer game, but I wonder if you realize how much work it is to make the levels.

 

I know that you weren't talking about HAR'em. I just mentioned it, because all the things what you want is almost in there. Except maybe the one or another DLI for the stars (and yes, done the "missile stars efx" years ago . So, there is no miracle to solve.

All that is needed is more gfx and more enemy waves. As I mentioned in the other thread, lots of memory can be saved when the enemy sprites get pre-shifted before they enter the screen. And when shots at char-steps are Ok there can be even more However, if you want larger enemy sprites or more then five, it get's tricky

 

 

PS:

I didn't used 128K as it was for the ABBUC contest.

[emkay]

Thing is, everybody wants a longer game, but I wonder if you realize how much work it is to make the levels.

 

That's why people do conversions.

It's enough stuff to do to make a game fluently running. If as game comes from a more capable machine, things have to be stripped down. No need to create it all new.

You know the ABBUC contest allows conversions, if they're legal.

 

And, well, the real good conversions don't use single scanline modes

 

If I'd sit the whole day on a computer for programming, there surely had been a "Virus/Zarch" version running on the Atari. 4x4 mode with gr. 10 Overlay would make it possible.

Wolf 3D would take a bit longer

 

But, we're talking of single scanline modes. Well, particular this type of shooter would work, because there is no crossover of the moving objects and the background. The fluent looking gameplay will only get disturbed by the charmode cluster overlay flicker. As we know , Dropzone has been done that way. The only way to have a better result is more memory with preshifted data.

[emkay]

.... and, well...

 

If the game is running fully on Softwaresprites, the PMs were free to add colours. We'd not been limited to the low colours as shown in the screenshot.

Some fullsized PM squares, moved horizontally don't take much CPU time....

[Creature XL]

That's why people do conversions.

Wrong, this why people do CONVERSATION. Everybody is welcome to make levels.

My view and thught on conversions can be found here:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/205998-graphic-modes-summary/

 

 

 

You know the ABBUC contest allows conversions, if they're legal.

Dude, have you thought for one second before posting this?

May I remind you of the contest of 2011? If anyone, I should know very well that conversions are allwowed

 

 

Lastely, I hope you can understand that I do not repspond to anything you say coding related.

This view would change at once, if you sat down all day and code Virus for the A8

[emkay]

 

Dude, have you thought for one second before posting this?

May I remind you of the contest of 2011? If anyone, I should know very well that conversions are allwowed

 

Well, it's quite a difference to make a remake of a free to the web game, or a game that has a full Vendor with a written copyright behind it.

 

 

Lastely, I hope you can understand that I do not repspond to anything you say coding related.

This view would change at once, if you sat down all day and code Virus for the A8

 

LOL.

So why do you respond to the writings of José ? As everything he writes is full phantasy, nothing realistic?

 

And, btw. as "Virus" is more based on maths, it should even be easier to reproduce than "Turrican"

You could ask pr0be , how long it took to convert the CONTROL Demo.

[Creature XL]

Well, it's quite a difference to make a remake of a free to the web game, or a game that has a full Vendor with a written copyright behind it.

Ok point taken. But then what about the Dynablaster-Clone from 2004?

 

 

LOL.

So why do you respond to the writings of José ? As everything he writes is full phantasy, nothing realistic?

This should make you think, shouldn't it?

BUT, as I am a nice guy, let me give you a hint.

 

Jose <-> Emkay
"?"  <->  "!"

Edited December 6, 2012 by Creature XL