Commodore 64 vs Apple II

[high voltage]

12 hours ago, Keatah said:

That’s right. There are games that are recracked, wozified, nibbled, single-file’d, and just plain ol’ dumped to .dsk.

 

All should be coalesced into 1 title. That drops the 8000 to about 6000.

Same as C64..

Just check out the huge database on Boulder Dash screens from BDCK

[youxia]

Not really the same, because they are different games.

[carlsson]

And we already agreed to cut the number 29000 games into half to get rid of all the Boulder Dash hacks, all the Italian pirate versions of various games etc.

 

Now if 8000 game related files on Asimov should be reduced to 6000 unique titles, that still is 10000 titles short of Electronic Games. Yes, there are some games in the public domain collections but since we concluded that EG would not cover programming languages, business and productivity applications etc, a lot of those other files on Asimov would not count towards the games library.

 

I realize I'm digging too deep into this, exactly what Keatah asked people not to do. Now when we have a source, it should not be digested but accepted as a monolithic unit.

[youxia]

I don't really care about the vs angle - which computer had more games. It just makes me sad and kinda itchy to think there might be ~3000 games missing for some platform (even though I don't really think it's that high a number).

[Keatah]

One possible counting rule is as follows. It's easy.

 

1- Count the titles by their names given by their publishers/authors on release date. Each name, or compilation, or set would count as 1 entry. Each version & variant of each program is counted. Small programs will tend to get tossed into themed collections disks. Add-ons and data disks counted per title.

 

And that's it!

 

---

---

 

This second set is the long set and likely will yield the most accurate count. It is a thought exercise. Read at your own risk!

 

1- Each title name or piece of software shall count as 1 title entry, irregardless of number of cracks, copies, different archive formats or releases. Different archive versions such as 2img, dsk, po, woz, a2r of the same title would only get one database entry.

 

2- Programs with very similar names and of the same genre/type such A2-FS1 vs A2-FS2 shall count as separate entries. Both programs are flight simulators from the same company and do the same thing. But are worlds apart in their programming and appearance and functionality. So therefore we have 2 titles.

 

3- Programs like ProTerm and AppleWorks have had many versions and revisions and patches throughout the years. Something like 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, and so on. But they tend to look the same and are evolutionary upgrades. These would count as 1 title across the board. ProTerm is ProTerm, 1 entry. AppleWorks is AppleWorks, 1 entry.

 

4- A text adventure and it's later graphical equivalent will count as 2 separate programs despite having the same name and likely the same gameplay. They are significantly different versions. Oo-Topos would count 2x.

 

5- Type-in programs from magazines. Each program is its own entry. Nothing complex or ambiguous here.

 

6- Programs of a similar type or complementary programs that form a whole utility disk, such as something called AstroCalc 101, all of the programs here are grouped together and form 1 title - AstroCalc 101.

 

7- Data disks such as add-on PrintShop graphics shall be counted as 1 entry per theme. A set of 2

disks sporting Christmas items will be 1 entry. As would be a set of 6 "SummerTimeFun" disks. 1

entry.

 

8- Disks containing two-liners. A tougher one. A disk of two-liners and perhaps other stuff would be 1 entry despite there being 30 two-liners. Especially if it comes from Beagle Bros, or Nibble, or a user's group. Individual two-liners aren't counted and should be put into a compilation disk. This an annoying gray area.

 

9- Disks containing several games, or large type-ins, would be counted by the individual programs. A disk may represent 6 or 7 separate programs. Beagle Bros. may have had 3 Applesoft text games per disk, each game is separate and unrelated, but also part of an officially named disk. 1 entry here. This is another annoying gray area.

 

10- User's groups disks are simple. 1 title per disk per group. A whole set of, say, 105 disks should not add up to 1 collection. But instead should be listed as 105 disks.

 

11- Add-ons and support utilities for other programs such as graphics disks, BBS toolkits, pirate tool kits and crack utilities disks all count as 1 title per disk. Unless a tool was released separately and independently. Think something like CatClock. A BBS tool not part of any compilation, it gets 1 title. Mockingboard utilities disk, 1 entry despite it having several different programs. Apple-Barrel - 1 title.

 

12- Programs like Sky Blazer and Star Blazer are one and the same despite being published by two different companies and having only slight differences in the splash screen.

 

13- Brands of languages get their own count. Kayan Pascal vs USCD Pascal, 2 different things.

 

That's quite a bit of work, checking into each program and disk to see what's what.

 

---

---

 

I have this third set of rules that should be much simpler (easy thinking) and more accurate and incredibly more tedious. It will give an inflated number, into the 100,000's or low millions. Every little thing is considered and counted.

 

1- Each runnable program, each version, each release is a count. It doesn't matter if it's a two-liner, a single patch for a larger program, an incremental release, a major release, a minor release, a support utility, or demo.

 

2- Disks containing datasets for major programs such as PrintShop holiday graphics or sports graphics would get an entry per disk or per named disk set. Expansion disks like scenery disks for flight simulator or support utility kits for BBS'es and AppleWorks would get 1 entry per named disk set.

 

3- User's groups disks may contain 10 or 15 programs, each program gets counted.

 

4- Two-liners, type-ins, minor DOS or ProDOS versions, language brands and versions, editors, and others, each one gets a database entry.

 

5- Small binary tools like CatClock or Hi-DOS patchers, or programmer's aids, each gets an entry. A Beagle Bros. disk may present you with 25 programs to count. Bag of Tricks gives you 5 straight away.

 

6- Tiny parts or modules of larger programs, if part of the original when shipped, are not counted. Think AppleWorks. AppleWorks is the main gig and will be swapping executable modules around as needed.

 

Basically with those 6 points we're trying to count everything ever written. And like I say, it will give a huge number.

 

It's all a matter of how far you want to drill down and separate and categorize things.

 

[carlsson]

Well, we could try to identify which methods GameBase 64, World of Spectrum (or its successor), AtariMania, Mobygames, various pages on Wikipedia etc use and try to apply the common set of rules on the Apple ][ platform too. I think that would be most fair, instead of counting Apple ][ software by completely different methods than everyone are using.

[Keatah]

We could. It's really just a matter of how thorough and how far one wants to drill down.

 

Personally I can be satisfied by saying, "There's a shitload available. Ranging from 10,000 to 200,000 depending how you count." And call it a day.

[youxia]

The Gamebase methods are pretty simple, mentioned them earlier. They are similar to Keatah's 2-nd method, only for games. And without collection disks. The official collection disks are counted in the likes of WoS or Atarimania though.

 

I'm just surprised nobody has done it yet. Or, they have, and the result is TOSEC

 

Actually, I've just realised that I do have Apple2Mania V2, the Apple 2 Gamebase. It has 1288 individual entries, it's from 2009 though.

[carlsson]

If I have very little on my mind some day (most probably will not happen), I will comb through the file listing on Asimov to remove duplicates and separate documentation files. We already know that the total number of games should be between 3000 (Tanrunomad) and 8000 (total number of files in the games section, including duplicates). The fact that the total Apple ][ library with all forms of programs might well exceed 20000 and perhaps 30000 is not challenged by me, but the number of amusement programs, or games as we tend to call them.

[youxia]

It's a pity that Tanrunomad is not available as a download.

[carlsson]

I don't think that ever was his intention to put together a collection, a TOSEC or likewise. Of course if one puts together a collection, the listing is more or less an automatic bonus, at least if one spends time to fill in publisher, genre, year etc beyond only file names.

[Keatah]

6 hours ago, youxia said:

It's a pity that Tanrunomad is not available as a download.

 

In a sense it is. Asimov has almost everything on the list, and additional stuff not on the list. Likewise the same can be said for the list itself. they aren't a 100% match. Each has missing or additional items.

 

Any genuine Apple enthusiast will have purchased a USB HDD and mirrored Asimov. After that it is a simple thing to search the file list with Windows or your favorite tool. No title is more than 5 seconds away.

 

Can't beat that!

 

[high voltage]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:18 PM, carlsson said:

Well, we could try to identify which methods GameBase 64, World of Spectrum (or its successor), AtariMania, Mobygames, various pages on Wikipedia etc use and try to apply the common set of rules on the Apple ][ platform too. I think that would be most fair, instead of counting Apple ][ software by completely different methods than everyone are using.

Exactly, AtariMania lists ~10,000 Atari 8-bit games (under heading 'games')

Edited September 5, 2020 by high voltage

[Keatah]

'Cept that people have expressed frustration and confusion about the current ambiguous methods of counting and classification. Methods that often leave material uncounted.

 

[youxia]

16 hours ago, Keatah said:

 

In a sense it is. Asimov has almost everything on the list, and additional stuff not on the list. Likewise the same can be said for the list itself. they aren't a 100% match. Each has missing or additional items.

 

Any genuine Apple enthusiast will have purchased a USB HDD and mirrored Asimov. After that it is a simple thing to search the file list with Windows or your favorite tool. No title is more than 5 seconds away.

 

Can't beat that!

 

Sure you can, but it's a big ol' mess of files. Just like TOSEC. It is awesome of course but filtered collections are much more convenient. When you know what you are searching for it's no problem, but when you just want to play/check everything 1-by-1 it becomes a bit of a chore. It's a bit of a #firstworldproblem, but hey...

 

Another thing is when you want to put such collection on a flash card. Some of them parse stuff really slowly on real hardware and having to wade through zillion files is a nightmare.

 

My point in general is that the other collections, eg GB64, are cross checked against all available resources and become a sort of 1G1R ultimate packs, at least at the date of their release.

 

I looked for "apple asimov" on archive.org but could only find non-game packs. Might try to suck it down via FTP...has anybody tried it? Sometimes download/speed limits on such servers make it nigh on impossible.

[Keatah]

Agreed. I'm just so used to having Asimov around that I've become used to searching through it with Windows Search and perhaps other tools. It's a huge-ass AE line! It should run at full speed most of the time.

 

For those of you with slow connections why not use FileZilla? Or other FTP program. You can do it piecemeal over several weeks if necessary.

 

Over the years I've found flash media to not be the best for storing and parsing huge archives. There's literally a 2nd translation layer the OS needs to go through, and the amount of fragmentation is startling when crammed into small USB devices. Buy a cheap vintage 2TB HDD for that purpose and optimize it with UltimateDefrag. This way any title is "as-fast-as-you-can-type" away. IMHO, semi-random nature of the layout & organization is good for browsing and discovery. A little bit of a mix.