Another World Jaguar Pre-Order

[Zerosquare]

The truth is the truth!

A) spending several months analyzing the game, writing new code, debugging it, improving it, designing the box and the manual, handling orders and shipping, etc.

B) burning and soldering EPROMs, using free guides telling you what to do step-by-step.

 

The truth is that saying A and B are the same thing is utterly ridiculous, and you'd know that if you had attempted to do more than B.

[Swansea_Mariner]

So definitively is it a rights issue preventing another run or just no interest from the porter?

 

If it's the later and not the former then is another distributer able to step in and meet demand.

[+BitJag]

 

Seriously everything you just said is crap. Where do I begin?

 

Contracts? I'm still waiting to be told of all these "imaginary" licensing fees that were paid to "imaginary" people. I don't buy it. I highly doubt a single licensing fee or contract was needed to produce this game. Even if there was how hard is it to do a new run? So now you are saying "imaginary" people don't like to make money? More like said individuals like their limited run to stay limited!

 

Please by all means allow me to negotiate with people on how to sit on their ass and collect a check, that sure does sound like a hard task to sell. Man I'm sweating just thinking about it. "Hey Joe, you want to make money of this game from 20 years ago that we don't have to do anything for but just let the checks roll in?", No Pete to hell with that, I don't like to make money."

 

High up front cost? IT'S ALL PRE-ORDER!

 

Lastly it is NOT accurate to call a port a homebrew. Hell so now I can start selling every Megadrive game I toss on a Genesis cart a Homebrew? How about every translated game, those are now homebrews? How about game hacks like Super Mario World Return To Dinosaur Land, which is a completely redesigned game, where levels have been altered and shit tons more work went into than simply porting code? They are all now homebrews. No a homebrew means one thing just as a port, hack, translation means something completely different!

 

You people are absurd.

 

Yes hypocritical in the sense many times Jaguar games are simply ported from other systems w/out getting rights, so essentially the games are reproductions themselves, yet they get mad at the thought of other people making reproductions of the reproduction they illegally made in the first place lol.

 

I imagine I'm pissing many of you off, but you know what. The truth is the truth! You can't call a Ford a Dodge just because you put a new emblem on it!

 

 

Looks like there was some kind of approval to get it produce http://removers.free.fr/AnotherWorld/ . And another source to back up the Remover's source, with some direct quotes from Eric Chahi (the orginal creator of Another World) himself https://venturebeat.com/2013/04/25/consoles-that-wont-die-atari-jaguar/ . Its amazing how "imaginary" people become real people when you do a bit of research. I am not saying there was paperwork in place, but there was obviously at least some serious discussion that led to what I feel is the legitimate creation of Another World on the Atari Jaguar.

 

Reading the Remover's link is quite enlightening to how much work went into the "port" of Another World. Personally I think it falls into a domain outside of a port, almost a remake, as Eric says himself,"It is one of the best versions, clearly", I am sure it wasn't easy to to get the game to a point where the creator says that it is one of best. Also there was allot of work on the graphics to get it looking the best it could on the Jag. Its more akin to the remake of Shadow of the Colossus for the PS4. Yes its a port... but it's obviously much more than that though. It is definitely not as black and white a conversation as you make it out to be, but is a conversation that would need to be wary of hair splitting.

 

Even if pre-orders cover all upfront production costs, in this business of making/porting games for a long dead console, I highly doubt the Remover's made their cost of time back. Anyone who has worked with real product from start to finish knows that "cost" isn't just money, regardless if its a port, homebrew, or a brand new game.

 

If you want a reason for why there hasn't been another run, here is my assumption. It's the sacrifice of unpaid time, relationships with family and friends and loss of health that are usually placed on the sacrificial altar to get these kinds of projects finished and delivered to a sometimes ungrateful audience (not everyone who buys this stuff is ungrateful of course). I would first assume that the sacrifice to put more time into producing and delivering more copies of the game, and dealing with customers, out weighs the return for the Remover's at this point (It's been over 10 years since they started). Villainizing these "imaginary" people as people who want to keep the game rare, or, they are too lazy to get up and make easy money, makes you come across as incredibly ungrateful and naive. It is mind blowing that the few of us still interested in this Jag stuff even have the chance to see a game like Another World come to the console, let alone own a copy of it.

 

At the end of the day, the Removers didn't have to spend their time, talents, and who knows what else, to bring this game to Jag. But they did.

 

Here's and idea, and please, stay with me here. This is probably going to make allot of people mad because the idea is so far out there. Instead of shaming creator's for not spending their time and effort continuously making copies of a game for us, a game that they have obviously moved on from, why not be grateful for their past and present efforts as a way of encouraging them to do more for the Jag in the future? Who knows, that kind of encouragement might actually make them want to do another run Another World in the future.

[icemanxp300]

Looks like there was some kind of approval to get it produce http://removers.free.fr/AnotherWorld/ . And another source to back up the Remover's source, with some direct quotes from Eric Chahi (the orginal creator of Another World) himself https://venturebeat.com/2013/04/25/consoles-that-wont-die-atari-jaguar/ . Its amazing how "imaginary" people become real people when you do a bit of research. I am not saying there was paperwork in place, but there was obviously at least some serious discussion that led to what I feel is the legitimate creation of Another World on the Atari Jaguar.

 

Wow really?

 

"Imaginary people", go back and read. You quoted me saying this!

 

"imaginary" licensing fees that were paid to "imaginary" people

 

Now you are going to try and list People who developed/produced the game and say I called them Imaginary people. That is not what I said. Did Eric Chahi get paid any licensing fees? I said Imaginary people because I have asked numerous times if anyone was paid licensing fees for "Another World" and that question has not been answered, just ignored.

 

Even if pre-orders cover all upfront production costs, in this business of making/porting games for a long dead console, I highly doubt the Remover's made their cost of time back. Anyone who has worked with real product from start to finish knows that "cost" isn't just money, regardless if its a port, homebrew, or a brand new game.

 

 

Really? Then why stop selling them in the first place!

 

 

Villainizing these "imaginary" people as people who want to keep the game rare, or, they are too lazy to get up and make easy money, makes you come across as incredibly ungrateful and naive.

 

Here you go again jumbling what I said to say something I didn't. In case it was unclear my statement about people sitting on their ass and collecting a check would be in regards to whomever I would "negotiate" with (which you skip told me I should do), whom may hold rights over a game and would have to be paid licensing fees to produce said game. They wouldn't actually be doing anything but collecting checks.

 

Again my Imaginary people was directed at people whom were getting paid licensing fees for this game "Another World". NOT to be confused with the people whom have the ability to make more copies of this game because they are different people.

[+BitJag]

I apologize. I assumed you were talking about Eric Chahi when you said "imaginary" people, because it is pretty obvious Eric Chahi has the rights to licence this game out anyone who wants to publish it. A quick look at wikipedia reveals that (look at how many publishers this game has had, not normal if a larger entity owned those rights). Whether or not he charged a licensing fee is between him and the Removers, there are probably only a handful of people that actually know that. Two people I can think of that might have an answer are Eric Chahi and Seb of the Removers. Why not ask them directly, are they that unapproachable?

 

There is a slight possibility that there could be another entity above Eric, but because I can't find anything online that shows evidence of an entity trying to stop Eric from working with publishers to get his game onto as many platforms as possible, this seems really unlikely.

 

The links I provided give a pretty good idea of what the relationship was like between owner and producer/publisher. Yes, it doesn't answer your question with finality, but I think the evidence clearly shows that the owner of the game gave authorization for a producer/publisher to bring it to the Jaguar. Just because money may not have exchanged hands doesn't make the deal illegitimate. Why would we need to know if there were licensing fees or not if the Remover's were working with Eric directly, and the game was released with positive reaction from the owner and original creator?

 

While reading back through the thread to find out where your question is coming from, I found another tidbit that helps establish the relationship between owner and producer/publisher. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/206660-another-world-jaguar-pre-order/page-51?do=findComment&comment=3594231 Take note of the word "Courtesy". To me this implies that there weren't licencing fees, but that there was approval from the owner of the game to bring it to the Jaguar. But again, whether or not the money changed hands, and according to the information we do have, the game seems to have been brought to the Jaguar with approval from it's owner. Please provide evidence to the contrary.

 

 

 

 

Really? Then why stop selling them in the first place!

 

Not everyone makes games for a dead console for the money.

 

Copying and pasting part of my previous post because it seems that it was not actually read....

 

If you want a reason for why there hasn't been another run, here is my assumption. It's the sacrifice of unpaid time, relationships with family and friends and loss of health that are usually placed on the sacrificial altar to get these kinds of projects finished and delivered to a sometimes ungrateful audience (not everyone who buys this stuff is ungrateful of course). I would first assume that the sacrifice to put more time into producing and delivering more copies of the game, and dealing with customers, out weighs the return for the Remover's at this point (It's been over 10 years since they started).

 

In other words, it's not their life's work. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't make copies of any game indefinitely, even if there was a demand (especially if I didn't have someone else to make the physical product for me), because I would want to move onto other things that could also be self fulfilling or lucrative (which ever is more important to me).

 

The ideal would be to have someone pick up on what you leave behind, but I don't think that is a realistic expectation to have for a console that didn't do well when it was alive, and doesn't really have a big enough market to support anyone financially today (hence my attitude to be grateful for what we have, because it is kind of a miracle that these creators even care about the Jag). If you can make the Jag market bigger (2000 minimum guaranteed buyers within 4 months of release), then maybe we can all start complaining about limited runs. Or, there may be a more creative approach to solving this problem that hasn't been thought up yet. My point is, we can't completely blame creators for limited runs, it's not that simple. Most of us know that limited runs suck, but complaining about it doesn't solve the problem. Thankfully we have publishers like Atari Age who are willing bet on a game as a long term investment and provide a service to solve the limited run problem, legitimately. The Removers didn't have this option as far as I know when they began releasing Another world.

 

It would be interesting to see if they would be interested in selling it again, but through Atari Age. But I believe this has already been proposed in this thread.

[skip]

Thank you for calling my comments crap. Very well reasoned, appropriate, considerate, and fair...or not. Anyway...

Contracts: If I'm wrong on that front, I'm wrong. I may be getting my wires crossed in this case, but I swear I heard or read that they ended up producing 300, an extra 100 over the initial run, and permission was given for it. My search-fu is wonky so I couldn't find anything about it here...so I could well be full of crap in this case, but as I said I vaguely remember something about it.

I am, however, aware of (and correct) in that there have been other actual cases where a specific number or single run of the production of a game was specified, and once it was done it was done, end of story. If I'm wrong in the case of AW, I strongly suspect the reasons given by lachoneus are likely applicable - time, family, inclination, moving on to other things etc. And, just as in the case of Battlesphere and other long out of print pieces of software that still have demand, the creators and rights holders of the games owe us nothing despite our frustrations of not being able to purchase said games. I too dislike the artificial limits that inflate the perceived values of so called rare retro games. But it is what it is. Beyond this, if people choose to dump and reproduce software, that's on them.

Pre-order: My memory is hazy, but I do not believe that there was a deposit placed on Another World. I was on a list, I got a message one day (long after my name was on the list), I only paid for the game then. Of course this isn't the only way that things can be done (cash up front pre-production can cause it's own set of problems), but in this case nothing was paid up front IIRC. Again, they didn't have to do things this way, but they did. Any compensation for the years of time being put into this project would have been minimal (even if costs were covered for parts and processes), again a very admirable approach by the developers.

Re: port vs homebrew: I don't understand why the anger / angst toward the suggestion that a product can be both. I don't think that there's any argument against it being a port, a much enhanced one at that (as evidenced by the information in the links provided by lachoneus). As to whether it's homebrew...here's a definition from the most obvious place "Homebrew is a term frequently applied to video games or other software produced by consumers to target proprietary hardware platforms (usually with hardware restrictions) that are not typically user-programmable or that use proprietary storage methods." Given Briais is a consumer, a fan, and an 'unlicensed' developer on the Jag who essentially solely created this version of the game (with assistance), this game fits the technical and academically accepted definition of homebrew. If it's the commercialisation of the release, in my writing / research (that I do for a living) I've not seen anything that would strike a game from being considered a homebrew if it is sold. But if none of this works for you, that's completely fine too.

No need for anger (as I re-read the posts) or entitlement (a feeling I get from re-reading) no matter how frustrated you may feel that the game is no longer in production...measured and logical discussion is good, as is trying to see other people's viewpoints.

Edited September 3, 2018 by skip

[icemanxp300]

I apologize. I assumed you were talking about Eric Chahi when you said "imaginary" people, because it is pretty obvious Eric Chahi has the rights to licence this game out anyone who wants to publish it. A quick look at wikipedia reveals that (look at how many publishers this game has had, not normal if a larger entity owned those rights). Whether or not he charged a licensing fee is between him and the Removers, there are probably only a handful of people that actually know that. Two people I can think of that might have an answer are Eric Chahi and Seb of the Removers. Why not ask them directly, are they that unapproachable?

 

 

Well it is not obvious to me and I don't trust Wikipedia. However going w/Wikipedia does Eric own the rights or does the company Delphine software whom Wikipedia says he designed the game for own the rights? It def. seems a lot more complicated to me as far as doing it through all the proper channels.

 

As far as asking Seb about the licensing go back to post 1373 page 55, I did. The nice thing about AA is I can see who is reading a topic the same time I am and after I posted 1373 I seen Seb was reading this topic, yet he did not respond to my question. To me that means he decided to not answer my question. In which I am inclined to believe their are zero licensing fees and it is just plain not wanting to produce more of this game to keep value high or bragging rights.

 

Furthermore multiple people wrote statements like; there has to be more to making more of these than just producing them. I for one don't see that being the case here.

[Zerosquare]

In which I am inclined to believe their are zero licensing fees and it is just plain not wanting to produce more of this game to keep value high or bragging rights.

That would sure fit your lovely narrative, wouldn't it?

"Homebrew authors are narcissistic, greedy bastards. But with my cheap repros, you can get back at them!"

 

Meanwhile, anyone who actually knows SebRmv understands how wrong you are.

As to why he didn't reply to you? I don't know. But maybe your accusative tone has something to do with it.

[VladR]

Seb isn't argumentative, that much, I think, we all know.

 

In other words, he's not a good fit for a jag forum

 

Personally, from my experience with licensing and publishers on PC from 15 years ago, there's no way the publishing rights are clearly separated, given the number of platforms and territories this game appeared on.

 

Unless, there was just one publisher for all p!atforms and territories, which I don't believe is the case here.

[icemanxp300]

That would sure fit your lovely narrative, wouldn't it?

"Homebrew authors are narcissistic, greedy bastards. But with my cheap repros, you can get back at them!"

 

Listen dude keep at it and see how many jag games I start selling!

 

Like I said I choose NOT to make certain games, THAT IS MY OPTION. GO ahead though and keep your shitty accusations up and my respect of not making them will go straight to spitefully up yours!

[LinkoVitch]

That would sure fit your lovely narrative, wouldn't it?

"Homebrew authors are narcissistic, greedy bastards. But with my cheap repros, you can get back at them!"

 

Hang on but what about all the kickbacks Seb must be getting from all these high priced ebay sales that he is not part of? Think of all that money he would lose if he produced a load more! clearly this is why he's not done any more..

 

Oh wait a minute.. High ebay prices have absolutely NO BENEFIT to Seb making another run. The only person that would benefit from such would be someone greedy who wishes to put in no effort and get maximum profit from ripping off someone else's work whilst they sell off copies on ebay at high prices.

 

Hmmmm

[Stage_1_Boss]

 

Listen dude keep at it and see how many jag games I start selling!

 

Like I said I choose NOT to make certain games, THAT IS MY OPTION. GO ahead though and keep your shitty accusations up and my respect of not making them will go straight to spitefully up yours!

You act like you're about to become a dark Jedi, things are getting serious. It's hard keeping quiet here, this place is so lively.

[82-T/A]

Just crushed my Another World box!

 

Lol...

 

I keep all my games out in a large tupperware container, but I carefully collapse all the boxes, including the white box inserts, and place them stacked with all the other boxes, and put them in a huge box.

 

That allows me to have 200+ Jaguar games (or whatever I have) and put them all into a small box that I can put away for storage. That way, the boxes remain perfect, and I can still play the games!

[Gummy Bear]

So.... You didn't crush it?

[82-T/A]

So.... You didn't crush it?

 

No, neatly "collapsed" it and tucked it away for future fortune and gain... while I continue to play it now.

[Gummy Bear]

No, neatly "collapsed" it and tucked it away for future fortune and gain... while I continue to play it now.

Ah. Very wise

[Albert]

Listen dude keep at it and see how many jag games I start selling!

 

Like I said I choose NOT to make certain games, THAT IS MY OPTION. GO ahead though and keep your shitty accusations up and my respect of not making them will go straight to spitefully up yours!

 

I recommend you do not start pirating Jaguar homebrew games, as then I'll actively get involved in making sure you have a rough time of it.

 

..Al

[icemanxp300]

 

I recommend you do not start pirating Jaguar homebrew games, as then I'll actively get involved in making sure you have a rough time of it.

 

..Al

 

With all due respect AL I have no intentions of pirating any HOMEBREW games.

 

For sake of the argument I as well leave PORTS alone. However I would appreciate people to stop accusing me of doing what I do NOT.

 

The more I learn about jag "homebrews" the more i realize the jaguar actually has very little homebrews. This entire scene is comprised of individuals whom make money off altering other works that they generally don't have the rights to in the first place and yet they think they all of the sudden own all rights to said game and feel like they are getting robbed if someone repros a game they worked on even if they are not even selling it anymore.

Now Songbird from what I see actually makes Homebrews. 90 % of these hypocrites in the jag scene simply alter and repro games they had no rights to in the first place and call it a Homebrew, when it is not.

[+Sauron]

 

 

With all due respect AL I have no intentions of pirating any HOMEBREW games.

 

For sake of the argument I as well leave PORTS alone. However I would appreciate people to stop accusing me of doing what I do NOT.

 

The more I learn about jag "homebrews" the more i realize the jaguar actually has very little homebrews. This entire scene is comprised of individuals whom make money off altering other works that they generally don't have the rights to in the first place and yet they think they all of the sudden own all rights to said game and feel like they are getting robbed if someone repros a game they worked on even if they are not even selling it anymore.

Now Songbird from what I see actually makes Homebrews. 90 % of these hypocrites in the jag scene simply alter and repro games they had no rights to in the first place and call it a Homebrew, when it is not.

 

 

If you're referring to the ST ports, then they would hardly be considered "homebrew" by any definition as they are simply ports. There are, however, quite a few actual homebrew games that have been built from the ground up. I sure hope you're not trying to disparage someone's hard work by accusing them of something they don't do. After all, that would make you a bit of a hypocrite yourself.

[icemanxp300]

I'm not looking to get into this with this thread but I would gladly address it in another thread or via PM.

[Albert]

The more I learn about jag "homebrews" the more i realize the jaguar actually has very little homebrews. This entire scene is comprised of individuals whom make money off altering other works that they generally don't have the rights to in the first place and yet they think they all of the sudden own all rights to said game and feel like they are getting robbed if someone repros a game they worked on even if they are not even selling it anymore.

Now Songbird from what I see actually makes Homebrews. 90 % of these hypocrites in the jag scene simply alter and repro games they had no rights to in the first place and call it a Homebrew, when it is not.

 

I consider ports that never existed on a platform to be homebrew games, even if those authors did not license those properties. They are still writing new code and creating a game that never existed on the platform in the first place. You're doing a big disservice to those who "port" games from one system to another. While it may sound trivial to create ports, that's hardly the case. The amount of work required can vary greatly depending on the source and destination systems. Sometimes you can reuse code, other times you are writing the game entirely from scratch.

 

Yes, the Atari ST to Jaguar ports absolutely benefit from both machines sharing a 68000. But quite a bit of work had to be done to make libraries for the Jaguar to emulate Atari ST system calls, supporting saves to EEPROMs for cartridges, supporting audio, and more. It's not like they just run on the ST without any work.

 

There are quite a few ports on most platforms targeted by homebrew authors. Atari 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx, Jaguar, ColecoVision, Vectrex, Intellivision, Odyssey 2, you name it, there are probably people writing games for it. I still consider all of the ports on these systems to be homebrews if they were created by hobbyists, generally in their spare time. Anyone who actively bootlegs these games without permission of the people who created these ports is doing a disservice to the classic gaming community. I have no qualms about reproductions of original games and prototypes for platforms that range from 20-40 years old at this point. But actively shitting on people who are contributing to the hobby in the present and giving us new games to play on our beloved platforms, well, that's where I draw the line.

 

..Al

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

But actively shitting on people who are contributing to the hobby in the present and giving us new games to play on our beloved platforms, well, that's where I draw the line.

 

..Al

WOW! THINGS GOT REALLY HEATED IN THIS THREAD REALLY QUICKLY!

 

 

Such a shame.

 

It is a shame more Another World carts can't be made, but maybe we will get lucky and one day the Sega CD sequel will get ported to the Jag!

[icemanxp300]

I have no qualms about reproductions of original games and prototypes for platforms that range from 20-40 years old at this point. But actively shitting on people who are contributing to the hobby in the present and giving us new games to play on our beloved platforms, well, that's where I draw the line.

 

..Al

 

I agree however I think we might disagree on thing thing here.

 

I do not do homebrews or ports for that matter because I feel the people who put the work into them should be the people to make the money off them. Trust me I have been asked numerous times to make ST port reproductions and EVERY time I send them here to buy them.

 

I will say I think we disagree on how long an item should be left alone for. Whether original release, proto, hack, port, or homebrew after a certain amount of time goes by and the Authors are no longer wanting to make money from said item I do not think any of it deserves certain rights over the other. I view them all the same.

 

Why should one person be allowed to say never make my game again, yet all other games are fair game? If a homeberewer abandons their work it should be considered no different than a big corporation abandoning their work. You can't be ok with reproducing one game but not others when they fall under the same circumstances just because of whom was involved.

[Albert]

WOW! THINGS GOT REALLY HEATED IN THIS THREAD REALLY QUICKLY!

 

 

Such a shame.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, we are discussing this like adults and you come along with your ALL CAPS OHMIGOD THE SKY IS FALLING comment.

 

..Al

[Albert]

I will say I think we disagree on how long an item should be left alone for. Whether original release, proto, hack, port, or homebrew after a certain amount of time goes by and the Authors are no longer wanting to make money from said item I do not think any of it deserves certain rights over the other. I view them all the same.

 

Why should one person be allowed to say never make my game again, yet all other games are fair game? If a homeberewer abandons their work it should be considered no different than a big corporation abandoning their work. You can't be ok with reproducing one game but not others when they fall under the same circumstances just because of whom was involved.

 

I strongly disagree with you on this point. Most homebrew authors are not making a ton of money on whatever games they produce on a given system. The volume is just not there, whether it be on the Atari 2600, Intellivision or Jaguar. Homebrew authors are generally writing games (whether they be original titles or ports) because they are a fan of the system and it's a great challenge to write games for many of these systems. And it's rewarding to add something new to a system and to see that people are enjoying your game(s).

 

While legally there may be no difference, I just don't feel it's right to produce physical copies of homebrew authors' games without permission. In the nearly 20 years I have been publishing games, I have never made copies of a homebrew author's game without their blessing, and I don't intend on altering that policy anytime soon. It's why I haven't produced copies of the excellent 2600 game, "Man Goes Down", even though we were originally slated to publish it, the game is nearly complete, the label was finished, and we even started work on the manual before contact was lost with the author.

 

I want to support people who continue to make our hobby enjoyable by creating new games for all these platforms. Those big corporations you've referenced have long moved on, which is why I have no qualms about reproductions of games that were released decades ago. But I'm not going to support anyone who is profiteering off the work of fans without permission.

 

..Al