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Trebor

NTSC Color Palette - CRT TV Default & Tuning Varieties

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Let's try another approach on the decoding of values of the DEFAULT NTSC palette to (hopefully) mimic what many likely experience on their particular television.

 

Difference from previous offerings includes red-push via exact invert of blue and red influence from standard Default, along with a redistribution of blue ratios; a decrease from green to increase against red proportionally instead. (This may very well be the best palette to date as application in game results in overall "greener-greens" and some purples will appear slightly bluer (Less red influence). Additionally, some reds will have a slightly brighter and lighter tone).

 

As always, nothing has been hand-picked. Adjustments are calculated and made against entire color palette.

 

This palette... NTSC_A7800_DIF-B.zip

 

...will produce this color chart...

post-18-0-45533200-1358275324_thumb.png

 

and have this affect: DIF-B_SNAPS.zip

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Another 'DIF-B' palette with one more tweak (For better or worse, depending on display and/or preference).

 

NTSC_A7800_DIF-B_GZ.pal = Take the NTSC_A7800_YUV_DEFAULT palette, invert red and blue proportions and flip blue ratio positive and negative values (Influence red more, less influence on green - Instead of influence green more, less influence on red). Finally zero (neutralize) green from red and blue above or below 'DEFAULT' settings.

 

Download it here: NTSC_A7800_DIF-B_GZ.zip

 

Here are a few captures: DIF-B_GZ.zip

 

Post to follow this one will be a three-way comparison to help decide which is best for you from the latest, technically accurate, and preferred ones provided.

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Decisions, decisions, decisions…

Capture 01, 02, or 03, which one should it be?

A small sample set is attached below.

 

Palette associated with capture set can be downloaded individually by clicking palette name below.

 

Or if you want to download all three (plus an extra one) click right here… NTSC_A7800_PALETTES_20130116.zip

 

Capture 01:post-18-0-30238500-1358371663_thumb.pngNTSC_A7800_DEFAULT.pal

AKA NTSC_A7800_YUV_DEFAULT.pal, this is the palette achieved when you take the RAW video output of the Atari 7800 and convert the values to the technically accurate standard of the YIQ color correction frequency - What may typically be seen on a standard CRT TV with no bias attached to it.

 

 

Capture 02:post-18-0-69249300-1358371791_thumb.pngNTSC_A7800_DIF-B.pal

Take the DEFAULT palette, invert red and blue proportions and flip the blue positive and negative ratio values (Influence red more, less influence on green - Instead of influence green more, less influence on red). This decoding is what many have experienced as an alternative to the DEFAULT palette on their display device for the Atari 7800.

 

 

Capture 03:post-18-0-20858000-1358371816_thumb.pngNTSC_A7800_DIF-B_GZ.pal

Similar to the DIF-B palette with the addition of neutralizing more or less green from red and blue in comparison to DEFAULT proportions. It’s another alternative to the DEFAULT palette.

 

 

Extra (No in-game captures attached):post-18-0-59743900-1358371895_thumb.pngNTSC_A7800_RAW.pal

RAW video output of the 7800. Similar to what is often seen on a digital HDTV with an Atari 7800.

 

Here are the captures: DEFvDIF-BvGZ.zip

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Atari 7800 games just keep looking better and better!!!!! THNX Trebor!!!!!

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

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Trebor,

Thanks for your work and contributions of the palettes. I've tried a few of them and I think that the last one is the best as far as I'm concerned. I like the bolder colors(purdy as you say) as they seem to go better with what is essentially cartoon games. I'm not too concerned with subtlety in video games. The brighter and bolder the better. On the other hand, I don't have a problem with the default Prosystem palatte either. It's just different.

Chuck

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This is about as far as we can push red while maintaining green at reasonable levels and keep it warm and rich. For those that want the DIF-B_X2S palette a tad bit redder/warmer with similar richness here it is: NTSC_A7800_CRT-WR.zip

 

Here is the color chart: post-18-0-70603500-1358889443_thumb.png

 

Here are some captures for it: CRT-WR_Snaps.zip

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That WR palette looks nice.

 

I think I might like to see a palette with saturation about 1/2 way between your DIF-B and DIF-B_X2S. :)

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NTSC_A7800_CRT-WR.pal = NTSC_A7800_DEFAULT_1.pal

'New Palette' = NTSC_A7800_DEFAULT_2.pal

NTSC_A7800_DIF-B_X2S.pal = NTSC_A7800_DEFAULT_3.pal

 

Grab all three palettes here: NTSC_A7800_DEFAULTS_20130123.zip

 

The new palette in the above zip file falls 'in-between' the last two palettes provided. Being that this latest batch of palettes overall seem to be the appropriate range for what people are and have experienced as the default with their displays, they have been (re)named according.

 

Kevin.....Let me know if you still want that in between saturation of DIF-B and DIF-B_X2S as I'm not sure if this latest new palette changes anything for you.

DONE: DEFAULT_C_HALF_SAT.zip

This is a good call by you Kevin...Palette looks great.

 

Thanks everyone and enjoy :)

 

Color Charts:

 

post-18-0-53097400-1358966790_thumb.pngpost-18-0-59313300-1358966791_thumb.pngpost-18-0-33431000-1358966792_thumb.png

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and again I say.. ATARI 7800 games just keep looking better and better.....

 

 

THANKS TO TREBOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

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Thanks for that Trebor. That half_sat palette is now my palette of choice. :)

 

Great work as usual.

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Oh, you guys beat me to it with all the approvals and thumbs up..lol :D

 

Going to provide "HALF SAT" a better name and own post in this thread complete with numerous screenshots and finally put this palette creation to rest. It does take what I consider the best RGB values for the 7800 palette, and nicely saturates them. Above the standard 100% but not as (could be) overwhelming and too saturating at 200%, but smack in the middle at 150%. I guess the experiment mentioned proved successful. ;)

 

Plus for all the MESS fans out there, I have the adjustment values needed with the latest MESS (0.148) to generate the same colors and saturation level (Which is worlds easier to fine tune and adjust to personal preference). Works and looks fantastic. Especially once you hit it with a curved screen and some scanlines to boot.

 

Even if "HALF SAT" doesn't cover it for some, this last batch of palettes are all so close to each other, but offer slight variances that really should cover all reasonably tuned CRT displays, outside of the saturation issue...The only thing I have been contemplating is taking the remaining ones in that batch and creating the values at 150% to match 'DEFAULT C HALF SAT' saturation.

 

Not sure if I am going to have a chance to make that post today or tomorrow, but hopefully before the weekend is up, I will make that 'last post' for the palette creation.

 

Thank you everyone for your feedback, observations and replies (Both to the thread and elsewhere). It has been greatly appreciated and helpful. :)

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NICE TOPIC, Trebor. The NTSC 7800 Color Palette is very interesting.

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

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EVERY PALETTE, and I mean EVERY PALETTE, up to this point has been 'wrong'. It's my fault, I screwed up. What I stated earlier still stands regarding anything prior to the Raw palette (NTSC_A7800_RAW.pal) could not even be considered because it left out one or more vital keys to the 7800 video output, but what really stinks is a transcription error that started with the RAW palette. Which means every palette built after RAW is incorrect as well.

 

The error occurred with rows $1 and $F - the others rows were not impacted. However, every palette after RAW was built off it, so they are all wrong too.

 

However, the RAW palette has been corrected and submitted for approval and upload to MESS. The links provided earlier and calculatons to match palette(s) under MESS are still valid as the math has not changed any. The correction to the palette should make the next update ("u") release.

 

I have also corrected the NTSC_A7800_CRT.pal to reflect the changes accordingly. That new palette NTSC_A7800_CRT_REV1.pal is here: NTSC_A7800_CRT_REV1.zip

 

Time does not allow me to post an entire set of screenshots, but some of the games which were impacted the most are compared below.

 

CRT on the left CRT_REV1 on the right:

 

post-18-0-31301800-1361075368_thumb.pngpost-18-0-28758200-1361075371_thumb.png

post-18-0-65499500-1361075373_thumb.pngpost-18-0-77524500-1361075375_thumb.png

post-18-0-43857100-1361075377_thumb.pngpost-18-0-71730700-1361075378_thumb.png

post-18-0-19977400-1361075380_thumb.pngpost-18-0-72685500-1361075381_thumb.png

 

What really made me discover and dig for this is a recent pickup of a couple of Commodore 1702 monitors. I was trying to build a palette based on Yurkie's mod for the 7800 (Which looks absolutely crystal clear and gorgeous) displayed on the 1702. The colors are unbelievable and the best I've ever seen on any display. Seriously, developers for the 7800 must have been using these displays or something similar because they absolutely make every game shine.

 

The key is letting the 7800 'warm up' though. And it is not the monitor that needs to warm up, it is definitely the system. Choplifter (for example) goes from a greenish yellow to a near 'golden yellow' ground. It looks great with a bright blue (not purple) sky. Admittedly, not as good as this looks though. The 'warm up' issue I also found on the 7800 composite mod I have from Best Electronics. While the Best Electronics mod display color that is very good too, but it comes nowhere near the clarity of Yurkie's mod (Best has some ghosting issues and quite noticeable color bleed).

 

Seriously, if you have not done so already, get your 7800 system mod from Yurkie. The video looks incredible and I could not appreciate how much so until I saw it on the Commodore 1702 video display monitor.

 

Anyhow, sorry for the tangent; as time allows there will be a palette posted based on a 7800 composite output to a Commodore 1702 monitor. Again, sorry for the mistake and hope you enjoy the posted palette.

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I still think your "REALNTSC" palette from way back was the most accurate from what I've seen so far. I've not had access to a CRT TV for a while, but on this LCD and my video capture card on my PC, that one was the closest. It also seems your "Fx" portion of your palettes is not as far off as you think. I believe your latest one is less accurate in the "Fx" region and has too much red/orange (not that I don't like it, because I DO, but it just doesn't look like that on any of my 7800s).

 

I took some snapshots of my s-video modded 7800 with my capture card. I could probably tweak the capture card's color settings to be more to my liking, but here's what it looks like with the default hue:

 

post-9364-0-47446700-1361161586_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-17851200-1361161561_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-01075300-1361161562_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-00332100-1361161563_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-74745600-1361161563_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-72835300-1361161564_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-09274000-1361161566_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-48483500-1361161565_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-02022200-1361161567_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-87602800-1361161567_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-51429300-1361161560_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-38713600-1361161582_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-99180300-1361161582_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-90282700-1361161583_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-90538500-1361161584_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-62789900-1361161585_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-41942200-1361161587_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-30478700-1361161588_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-12496700-1361161589_thumb.jpg post-9364-0-02306200-1361161590_thumb.jpg

 

The 7800 is connected directly to the capture card via s-video, so the picture is almost emulator quality. I had to convert them to Jpegs due to file size contraints here, so there is some quality loss, but they should still give a pretty good idea of what my 7800 is putting out.

Edited by KevinMos3

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Hey Kevin,

 

I have been going over my documentation and test/trials again and I believe I crossed data in more than one place specifically with rows 1$ & F$ and had to go back to the 'drawing board' with the calculations and where the erorr(s) took place. Nonetheless, thank you for taking the time to make those captures. It is appreciated.

 

The device you are viewing the palette on will make a noticeable difference. Using Commodore CRT 1702 monitors, I have never seen the Atari 7800 palette look so good. I am working on a palette based off them. If I could make one recommendation to any 7800 owner with a composite mod (And I have two of them, one from Yurkie and the other from Best Electronics), is to pick up one of these monitors via ebay, thrift store or wherever (I currently own two of them). There is no other CRT display that I have seen that produces such rich amazing colors and at an amazing brightness level. It looks gorgeous.

 

Owning at least two pieces of all test hardware helps to solidify data and results so it's not just a matter of one specific system or setup, or a "fluke" in results.

 

Kevin...I'm not just blowing off what you did, but this part: "I've not had access to a CRT TV for a while, but on this LCD and my video capture card on my PC, that one was the closest" Makes a huge difference.

 

The colors are different and even the "warming up" difference never occurred for me on a LCD, Plasma, or LED. There are very distinct variations between the way the color palette for the 7800 is displayed on a CRT in comparison from those other types of displays.

 

Here is a good example of how for instance Commando looks on another CRT and console (Very close to the Commodore 1702 display as well - just a tad bit more blue in the green):

http://www.atariage....25#entry2543022

 

On a LCD/LED/Plasma, even when pushing the tint controls all the way to the "red": http://www.atariage....50#entry2558240

 

You still do not achieve the same color palette.

 

I notice the same exact results with Commando on both of my 7800 Composite mod on the various display devices. The Composite mod on a CRT shows Commando to look like the capture posted by Underdog. The same Composite mod 7800's on a LCD/Plasma/LED looks similar to this in the 'neutral' position:

http://www.atariage....25#entry2542959

 

And again even if the "red" is pushed all the way, it still appears to only look like the picture posted by Yurkie on the Vizio HDTV.

 

In summary, for me the same Atari 7800 produces a palette very similar to the following:

 

CRT

Plasma/LED/LCD

Plasma/LED/LCD with red pushed

 

Underball was a little rough around the edges in getting the point across regarding colors, and the truth is the mod was not the issue, but what the console is being displayed on. I am looking to create the palette(s) based on CRT display results and not Plasma/LCD/LED/etc.

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Pictures speak louder than words...Same 7800 console running on a CRT and LCD running Commando.

Both display devices have their settings centered/default/neutral:

 

CRT:

post-18-0-30790000-1361197271_thumb.pngpost-18-0-24327300-1361197282_thumb.pngpost-18-0-65837800-1361197309_thumb.png

 

 

LCD:

post-18-0-41374300-1361197360_thumb.pngpost-18-0-48403600-1361197367_thumb.pngpost-18-0-03216500-1361197375_thumb.png

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