Random F18A questions

[+Lee Stewart]

... Using the same accronyms for a new device when the standards are already set is going to really create confusions long term. ...

 

Acronyms are overrated and overused!

 

...lee

[+OLD CS1]

 

Acronyms are overrated and overused!

 

...lee

 

tl;dr

 

Like PCMCIA: People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms

[slinkeey]

TWAIN

[matthew180]

A issue as resulted in that GPL stands for Graphics Programming Language and GPU of the F18 has assumed the same 3 letter designation so confusion is the result long term.

As long as you want to be picky about acronyms, it is the "F18A", NOT "F18". Also, I never used the term "GPL" in association with the F18A... What the heck are you talking about here?

 

Secondly GRAM was used also for the F18 and confusion again results as for 30 years GRAM has stood for Graphics Random Access Memory but the F18 uses the same destination for GPU RAM.

TI never made a "GRAM" chip, it only existed as a rare 3rd party device (with a name that only included "GRAM") and never as a single component. Also, I did say the term "GRAM" was probably going to be confusing and thus I typically write out "GPU-RAM" when referring to the extra 2K of F18A GPU-only RAM. I challenge you to find *any* place where I ever even wrote "GRAM" without making the clarification.

 

Using the same accronyms for a new device when the standards are already set is going to really create confusions long term.

You mean how the terms "GPL", "XML", etc. have been reused and mean something completely different now too?

 

GPURAM should have been used and GPUPL should have been used as that is more descriptive and less confusing long term. Then co opting currently long time used abbreviations.

And TI should have never used the term "Graphics" to describe their ROM, or numbered their bits backwards from the industry "standard", or made a language called GPL that has nothing to do with "graphics", or used the term "XML" when clearly it would have a much larger meaning in the future, or ... would have, should have, could have...

 

It is only confusing if you can't manage to realize what context you are talking about.

 

"GPUPL"????? I still have no idea what the heck you are talking about with that one.

[TI-Sissy]

As long as you want to be picky about acronyms, it is the "F18A", NOT "F18". Also, I never used the term "GPL" in association with the F18A... What the heck are you talking about here?

 

 

TI never made a "GRAM" chip, it only existed as a rare 3rd party device (with a name that only included "GRAM") and never as a single component. Also, I did say the term "GRAM" was probably going to be confusing and thus I typically write out "GPU-RAM" when referring to the extra 2K of F18A GPU-only RAM. I challenge you to find *any* place where I ever even wrote "GRAM" without making the clarification.

 

 

You mean how the terms "GPL", "XML", etc. have been reused and mean something completely different now too?

 

 

And TI should have never used the term "Graphics" to describe their ROM, or numbered their bits backwards from the industry "standard", or made a language called GPL that has nothing to do with "graphics", or used the term "XML" when clearly it would have a much larger meaning in the future, or ... would have, should have, could have...

 

It is only confusing if you can't manage to realize what context you are talking about.

 

"GPUPL"????? I still have no idea what the heck you are talking about with that one.

 

this is why i do not participate much in this forum and will probably only be an observer from now on. i see guys like rich, and mark, nit picking people or even attacking them. why post anything if i could be jumped just for trying to do something nice? it's discouraging. you seem to get a lot crap just for being a great guy and inventing the F18 they are petty small people but ruin the fun for me and probably others. and i don't respond to attacks so don't even try boys.

[+OLD CS1]

 

this is why i do not participate much in this forum and will probably only be an observer from now on. i see guys like rich, and mark, nit picking people or even attacking them. why post anything if i could be jumped just for trying to do something nice? it's discouraging. you seem to get a lot crap just for being a great guy and inventing the F18 they are petty small people but ruin the fun for me and probably others. and i don't respond to attacks so don't even try boys.

 

It goes with the turf. Everyone is opinionated and passionate about something(s,) myself included. If you let opinionated or passionate people push you away, you are likely to no get involved in anything. We are a varied group of people, and as such we are likely to have various disagreements or even agree for different reasons (you should have heard Vorticon and I during the Pub Crawl!) but in the end we are all here for a common hobby -- dare I say a common love.

 

Keep your head straight and take your feelings off your shoulders and you will do just fine. Take comments for what they are, people espousing their own opinions, passion, prejudice, whatever it may be, and keep moving. Many a disagreement has and will result in something worthwhile.

[gregallenwarner]

This is my first post here, but I thought I'd interject...

 

I don't seem to have any problem switching contexts in my brain when I'm reading TI's (poorly chosen) terminology vs. when I'm working with conventional standards. For example, when I'm looking at anything TI-related and I read "A15", I automatically think, "least significant bit". And when I'm looking at anything else, when I read "A0", I automatically think "least significant bit". It's automatic--I don't have to consciously switch gears. I guess that's why it never bothered me that TI chose to be different with all their standards.

 

But I agree, it would have behooved them to adhere to industry standards.

[+OLD CS1]

For example, when I'm looking at anything TI-related and I read "A15", I automatically think, "least significant bit". And when I'm looking at anything else, when I read "A0", I automatically think "least significant bit". It's automatic--I don't have to consciously switch gears.

To me it works like accounting: credits and debits versus assets and liabilities.

[RXB]

As long as you want to be picky about acronyms, it is the "F18A", NOT "F18". Also, I never used the term "GPL" in association with the F18A... What the heck are you talking about here?

 

 

TI never made a "GRAM" chip, it only existed as a rare 3rd party device (with a name that only included "GRAM") and never as a single component. Also, I did say the term "GRAM" was probably going to be confusing and thus I typically write out "GPU-RAM" when referring to the extra 2K of F18A GPU-only RAM. I challenge you to find *any* place where I ever even wrote "GRAM" without making the clarification.

 

 

You mean how the terms "GPL", "XML", etc. have been reused and mean something completely different now too?

 

 

And TI should have never used the term "Graphics" to describe their ROM, or numbered their bits backwards from the industry "standard", or made a language called GPL that has nothing to do with "graphics", or used the term "XML" when clearly it would have a much larger meaning in the future, or ... would have, should have, could have...

 

It is only confusing if you can't manage to realize what context you are talking about.

 

"GPUPL"????? I still have no idea what the heck you are talking about with that one.

 

GROM only has one letter changed and that was the O for Graphics Read Only Memory to GRAM for Graphics Random Access Memory and this was created 30 years ago by Miller Graphics.

Long before any remote concept of the F18A was created.

 

The term can be found in thousands of references in many TI Magazines, Articles and Books. Not to mention the CYC and other more up to date publications.

Let's see how many can you find on the GPU and the F18A?

 

So let's change the history books and the history of the TI to suit your view of your new device? Come on be realistic.

I am only pointing out facts and complaints about what TI did 38 years ago has very little to do with the fact that GPL and GRAM has been the same thing for 30 years in the TI community.

 

What do you suggest we change all the books, articles and the CYC so you can cop the GRAM acronym? How about being more original?

 

P.S. TI GPL was invented long before GPL open source as that was much later in 1984. Again TI invented it first.

[RXB]

 

this is why i do not participate much in this forum and will probably only be an observer from now on. i see guys like rich, and mark, nit picking people or even attacking them. why post anything if i could be jumped just for trying to do something nice? it's discouraging. you seem to get a lot crap just for being a great guy and inventing the F18 they are petty small people but ruin the fun for me and probably others. and i don't respond to attacks so don't even try boys.

 

I just pointed out history and facts. Thousands of TI Magazines and Articles exist on GRAM and to cop the word for something else just makes searching for something harder when it is in the same community.

[RXB]

This is my first post here, but I thought I'd interject...

 

I don't seem to have any problem switching contexts in my brain when I'm reading TI's (poorly chosen) terminology vs. when I'm working with conventional standards. For example, when I'm looking at anything TI-related and I read "A15", I automatically think, "least significant bit". And when I'm looking at anything else, when I read "A0", I automatically think "least significant bit". It's automatic--I don't have to consciously switch gears. I guess that's why it never bothered me that TI chose to be different with all their standards.

 

But I agree, it would have behooved them to adhere to industry standards.

 

 

After 30 years it seems a little late to fix it and kinda silly to try.

[matthew180]

@Rich: Facts then:

 

1. The term "F18A" was never used in the context of the 99/4A or any hardware TI made in the realm of the 99/4A. It means "FPGA 9918A" and F18A seemed appropriate. I probably should have named it "Moon" or something like that, but someone might have gotten confused...

 

2. I admittedly pointed out *long ago* that calling GPU-RAM "GRAM" would probably be confusing, and thus I have made a concerted effort to always use "GPU-only RAM" and never "GRAM".

 

3. You failed to provide any references where I used "GRAM" to refer to F18A GPU-only RAM, so I don't even know why you brought it up to begin with???

 

4. You failed to clarify what the heck your were talking about when you claimed I use the term "GPL" in association with the F18A, and I should have called *it* (whatever you are talking about) "GPUPL"...

 

You can have any opinion you want about who did what first, etc. I don't care. So what if TI used the term "GPL" first??? You can jump up and down about it all you want, but if you say "GPL" to *anyone* outside of the 99/4A then they will not have any idea what *you* are talking about. As a matter of *fact*, if you Google "GPL" you will find there are over THREE HUNDRED different uses of the acronym, and I'd be willing to bet someone used it long before TI. When I read something related to the 99/4A and see the term "GPL" I know they are not talking about the "GNU Public License", or the "Gilford Public Library", or the "Great Poker League", or ...

 

My only issue is that you said I am using the terms "GRAM" and "GPL" in association with the F18A. I am not, and if I did I asked to be shown where so I could make any necessary corrections. I'll leave the "history rewriting" up to you.

Edited November 13, 2013 by matthew180

[slinkeey]

Edited November 13, 2013 by slinkeey

[marc.hull]

 

this is why i do not participate much in this forum and will probably only be an observer from now on. i see guys like rich, and mark, nit picking people or even attacking them. why post anything if i could be jumped just for trying to do something nice? it's discouraging. you seem to get a lot crap just for being a great guy and inventing the F18 they are petty small people but ruin the fun for me and probably others. and i don't respond to attacks so don't even try boys.

 

But you launch one and then run huh ?

 

Just so you know, my name is spelled with a "C", just like it reads (at least I guess your talking about me as Willsy hasn't twisted off in a long time.) Don't mean to nitpick and all but..........

 

You want to be a cheerleader then so be it. But let me point some things out.... girl...

 

Matt and I have had several heated "discussions" over the years. He and I are both fairly opinionated and more alike than different in that regard. I have respect for what Matt has done and I HAVE NEVER (read that as NEVER) ripped on his project. I have blasted his opinions before as he has mine and that's OK. Matt likes a good argument as much as anybody (re-read this thread if you don't buy that.)

 

Tony (Gazoo) is more or less the same. The argument he and Matt got into was not even based on the F18. It was started by a different cheerleader parroting someone elses personal opinion about the viability of some past work. May seem a bit far fetched at this point but it stuck in Tony's craw and I can understand. Plenty of crap was issued by BOTH (read that as Matt and Tony) during the exchange but again I think Matt is big boy enough to stand up on his feet. I don't see him wilting anytime soon, nor Tony.

 

I don't think I have ever seen Rich attack nor retaliate in any forum although he has had cause to. I understand that a lot of what he says sounds like it was born out of an acid trip but he has valid points and ideas and experience as well. You want to call him a troll even though you don't even understand the subject matter that's being discussed? Who the hell are you to do that? While I'm on the subject how about Kevan get rid of his big hard on for abusing Rich. You seem to have made it your personal mission to antagonize him for quite a while now and it's weak BS. Half the time what your bitching about Rich doing is the exact same thing you are doing or have done. Ya don't like what he writes or where he does it then don't read it. Here let me help you....

DON'T READ IT Kevan.... (That's really fucking annoying isn't it BTW .....)

 

If you do post some load of crap don't act offended if someone respondes in kind.

 

There are some really good and talented people here and some not so much. Seems more than lately some of you want to factionalize and have things a certain way. If that's how it is then speak up now and lets get this on the table. Otherwise cut out your snarky BS and bandwagon crap. It's weak. And for god's sake if your a moderater let this post stand, it needs to be said IMHO.

[+acadiel]

I usually stay quiet in these. I'm not a mod. However, I hope I do carry some weight in this community to express myself.

 

My concern that I have is that I see people chiming in and responding with comments that have nothing to do with the matter quoted (or not quoted, in the case of some people.)

 

Matthew brings up a great example, above. I never did see him mention that the F18A had GRAM. He tried to correct Rich, and then Rich went off with another thread that had nothing to do with what Matthew was saying. I was scratching my head as well at the response. I know these terms. I know what they mean in TI context, and I know what they mean in other contexts. No biggie.

 

People sometimes do make mistakes. Some people write stuff and misquote it. Fine. Correct it, and move on. But please, for the sake of our small community, don't make this a gik'tal. We're much too small a community to be nitpicking and making enemies with each over really trivial stuff. If you have any inkling that you're going to stir something up by replying to someone who's out to start something, just take your bat'leth and go home, please. Yeah, we're adults and can shrug it off, but come on... is it really necessary?

 

I really do like and respect all of you. Tursi's excellent hardware and software knowledge, Marc's hardware (SID Blaster) and excellent games, Rich's knowledge of GPL and all the odd stuff he knows about XB and RXB. Those are just some examples. I see all kind of new stuff that just blows my mind in these forums; Titanium, the smooth scrolling (and Marble Madness examples, just recently), Mr. Chin, you name it... you all rock!

[Omega-TI]

To Marc.Hull

Classy, real classy… not.

Note: Since you are easily offended by my use colorful texts in posts, which I usually use to add cheerfulness or highlight a specific item or to promote excitement, I’ll keep this reply dull and uninteresting. And no, for your information, I do not find the use of color annoying at all, if I did, I would not use it.

 

First- Why did you have to bring me into this discussion? This is between you and Sissy, I wanted no part of this, but now that you’ve dragged me into it, I feel compelled to reply. (Admittedly this is a character flaw).

 

Second – I’ll agree with you on two major items: It was crappy of Sissy to imply/ask if Rich was a troll. If anything Rich is as guilty as I am for being ‘cheerleader’, which you apparently hate. Make no mistake about it, Rich is a ‘cheerleader’ for RXB and the SAMS card.

And the other item I agree with you on? Sissy doing a hit and run was pretty lame. Dropping a bomb like that and then saying she would not reply… well, I guess even I can agree with you on some things. Amazing, huh?

 

Third – Now you say, “Don’t Read It Kevan”. I agree that would be easy… if it were not continually injected in an off-topic manner into threads about other things. If I start a thread about a SuperCart, or a thread on the F18A or a thread on BA-Writer or whatever, I would rather not read about how RXB is better or how the SAMS card is this or that, or how something is flawed or not up to someone’s opinionated standard. It’s off-topic and does not add anything positive to the thread. Now admittedly, I’ve probably done that once or twice myself, but that is what Rich does on a continuing basis and that drives me crazy. I at least try to be courteous and start a new thread when I want to discuss something, not hijack someone else’s. It’s really easy to start a new thread, really it is.

 

Fourth – "Factionalize?" Are you kidding me? I’ve made it no secret; I would love to have a SAMS card, a 512K card, a clock and a bunch of other toys, and I’m working to that end. There is always room for more, but I think it’s rude to enter another thread and start trashing some ones hard work by calling it flawed, substandard, that truly is to ‘factionalize’. One person who will go unnamed entered a thread recently and started trashing on one guys product, and said, “And 80 columns in a 9938 or 9958 does not look like 80 columns on the F18, as it used the extra RAM to get 80 columns in memory.” This guy had no idea what he was talking about, but kept on dishing, later he blew it off with a simple statement, “Cool so it looks like the 9938/9958 after all? I assumed wrongly that it was like squished characters like a most other 80 column hacks.” Is it too much to ask for someone not to dish out off-topic ‘snarky’ comments when they don’t know what they are talking about? By your own rules, they should not be surprised when someone responds in kind.

 

My question to you is what in the hell is wrong with someone being a so-called “cheerleader”? Are we not allowed to give encouragement, try to generate excitement in a positive manner, compliment someone or be positive without being called names? If so, I’ll agree with Sissy on one item, that is indeed discouraging.

[slinkeey]

TI-Sissy appears to be harmless to me.

Sounds to me like she stumbled on a TI-99/4A, and finds it to be an interesting machine. She probably googled TI-99/4A and ended up on this forum. Everyone has their own reasons for owning this machine.

Looking in from the outside, it could look like a bunch of old crabby guys bickering over every little thing. Oh well. Maybe she will see that it really isn’t that bad, and that many here just like to debate. Hopefully she sticks around.

I’m that goof sitting on a TI-99/4A, with a F18A installed, and no plan on what I am going to do with it yet. I need to get some kind of storage, and I refuse to get a cassette deck. I am not a big gamer, and I am not into text editors. I use text editors, but they don’t really get me excited.

[matthew180]

@slinkeey and sissy: The TI community is renowned for this kind of "attitude" (for lack of a better word.) It is the "TI Curse" and has driven many people out of the community forever and created life-long anger and grudges. You either get thick skin, stay out of such discussions, or leave. I honestly try to stay out of it, but that does not always seem to happen. I miss interpret something that was written, or someone misinterprets what I write and it is all down hill from there. If people were face-to-face there would be much less bullshit and a lot more respect, but such is the problem with any written forum.

 

Related to the thread topic, I'm simply trying to prevent misinformation, thus:

 

1. The F18A is NOT a 9938. If you try to compare the F18A to a 9938 I will correct you and the discussion will probably degrade into shit just like it has with Gazoo and Rich. The F18A is not "broken", "buggy", or "deficient" because it does not do something the 9938 does do. The F18A IS NOT A 9938. I tried to add some 9938 features where possible out of convenience, but if something does not work for whatever reason (lack of 128K of VRAM, stupid register use, etc.) then too bad. The F18A is NOT a 9938. It is a pin-compatible 9918A replacement that generates a 640x480@60Hz signal to drive an analogue monitor. Anything beyond that is a perk.

 

2. The F18A has NOTHING to do with TI's "GROM" chips or the 3rd party hardware counterpart "GRAM". The F18A has some GPU-only RAM that I initially called "GRAM" but only internally in my HDL code, realizing it would probably cause confusion. I have been very conscientious (I looked up the word for Vorticon's sake ) of calling the GPU-only RAM "GPU-RAM", and if I fucked up somewhere let me know and I'll correct it. But don't come along later and indirectly tell me I was stupid, disrespectful of the "past", or whatever, and should have called it blah blah blah. That conversation will degrade into shit as it has done here.

 

3. Don't claim I did or said something I did not. I have no problem being corrected or having constructive criticism. But for crying out loud, *WHEN* did I muddle the F18A with "GPL" and what the hell is "GPUPL"???????

[slinkeey]

The F18A has some GPU-only RAM that I initially called "GRAM"...

You should have called it Honeymaid.

...

...

...

Graham

 

@slinkeey and sissy: The TI community is renowned for this kind of "attitude" (for lack of a better word.) It is the "TI Curse" and has driven many people out of the community forever and created life-long anger and grudges. You either get thick skin, stay out of such discussions, or leave.

blablabla... blabla... bla... Is what it is.. I am heat because I want to see what I can do with my TI.. I don't care about the bickering.

Edited November 14, 2013 by slinkeey

[TheMole]

... angry rant snipped out...

 

First and foremost, I really think you should avoid trying to attack the person and focus on the topic of discussion instead of who is make the claims. Your post above, in my personal (and very humble) opinion, is full of personal attacks that are always uncalled for, regardless of what was said before.

 

Secondly, I think you underestimate how tiresome it is to keep seeing the same shit in these threads over and over again... I respect Rich and am in awe of what he has done with RXB, I respect the Geneve and the hardware that was painstakingly made and designed many moons ago with far lesser tools than what we have available today. BUT, there's no place for this relentless pushing of other technologies in these F18A threads. You don't see anyone pushing C, or assembler, or basic, or whatever... in the fbforth or Turboforth threads, nor do you see anyone talking about how Rich's In The Dark game probably would've been just as feasible with a disk-based loader and some very simple compression of the data, you don't seen people dissing GPL in GPL-specific topics, etc...

But somehow, for some reason, it is perfectly OK to post how the v9983 is so much better than the F18A in F18A specific threads. Or to continuously pitch RXB in any other thread.

 

There's fucking good stuff being done in the community these days, let's foster that instead of bashing each other's input and solutions. Maybe a moderator can clean these topics up a little, split of the off-topic shit in dedicated threads...

[RobertLM78]

 

... Maybe a moderator can clean these topics up a little, split of the off-topic shit in dedicated threads...

Agreed - this thread has been totally derailed .

[+Ksarul]

Peace, people, Peace! I respect all of you--but we need to try for a bit more civility, please!

 

And I LOVE all three of my F18As (which I still need to get updated)! Thank you Matthew--and I'm glad I met you at Chicago too.

[matthew180]

(which I still need to get updated)! Thank you Matthew--and I'm glad I met you at Chicago too.

You're welcome. And it was good to meet you as well, and your kids were great! :-)

 

The update is coming. I finally broke down and asked for help, so there is forward progress again. The updater will be 99/4A only (for now), and probably require some sort of disk system that can hold the whole update, i.e. a hard disk or CF7/nanopeb.

[gregallenwarner]

You're welcome. And it was good to meet you as well, and your kids were great! :-)

 

The update is coming. I finally broke down and asked for help, so there is forward progress again. The updater will be 99/4A only (for now), and probably require some sort of disk system that can hold the whole update, i.e. a hard disk or CF7/nanopeb.

 

Does this mean that the F18A is in-system updateable? (Assuming you have some large disk system like you said.) Will this work over HDX? That's the only large storage system I have. (Although I bought my F18A's from you pretty recently, so I don't think they'll need updating at this time.)

 

Anyway, yes, like Ksarul said, I too love my F18A's! Easy, no-hassle installation, superb video quality, and nice feature set. I'm just now getting into learning FPGA programming myself, so it's fascinating to see what a fully developed FPGA product is capable of out in the wild! It's an excellent product, Matthew!

[matthew180]

Yes, the F18A can update its own firmware. The hard part is making the 166K bit stream file available to the update program, which is why the update program will require a large disk system (maybe). It should work over HDX as long as you can specify a standard I/O device, i.e. DSK1, DSK2, etc. The update program will be using the standard DSRLNK via assembly.

 

V1.5 is the latest firmware, but I will probably be releasing another to fix the 80-column R2 problems people are running into. I might also pull out one set of the 32-bit counter/32-bit RNG to make room for something else. Finally I might modify some of the GPU memory map to make room for additional VRAM that could be made available via the 500K gate FPGA that can be used instead of the 250K gate FPGA (although the 500K FPGA costs about double). The 500K gate FPGA has more block-RAM, thus I could offer even more VRAM or GPU-RAM (more VRAM would require additional modifications to the VDP registers, like the 9938 had to do).