supercart v. ed assm

[RXB]

What I would like to see is some good documentation on the support routines that come with the SAMS card. There are some very useful routines (apparantly) that take all the headaches out of the bank-switching, allowing you to (kind of) program transparently, as if the SAMS wasn't there (I'm talking about some routines accessed with BLWP). However when I read the docs (I have a 1MB SAMS from Mike Dudec) they didn't really enlighten me much.

 

Has anyone got those docs handy? If so, could someone post them in a new thread. I only have them on TI floppies. It could make a useful starting point for discussion. I personally am very interested in the SAMS card and would like to put it to more use. TF supports it via the >MAP word which is very flexible.

 

Well this is everything I have, I never transferred the other stuff I have from the TI to my MAC like the SAMS games or other stuff just this, but it is the docs from ASGARD.

AMS.zip

[Willsy]

Thanks Rich!

[airernie]

Anyway, both Classic99 and MESS support SAMS emulation, so even if your TI doesn't have a SAMS card, you can still enjoy software written to take advantage of it. RXB runs in Classic99 and MESS, too. So, have at it, and hack on brothers!

 

And for those of us who still enjoy running it I would like to add PC99, which BTW was the first emulator to have SAMS support..

 

Ernie

[Omega-TI]

what the heck is the difference between the super cart and the editor assembler and should I care?

 

You know this item at the Whtech site might give you a reason to use a SuperCart...

 

Manual

ftp://whtech.com/datasheets%20and%20manuals/Software%20manuals%20-%20Third%20Party/4A%20DOS%20-%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf

 

Cover

ftp://whtech.com/datasheets%20and%20manuals/Software%20manuals%20-%20Third%20Party/4A%20DOS%20-%20Cover.pdf

 

I use that program so much, like 99% of the time that I'm thinking about changing the label on the cartridge from "Super Cart" to "4A DOS"!

[RXB]

You know this item at the Whtech site might give you a reason to use a SuperCart...

 

Manual

ftp://whtech.com/datasheets%20and%20manuals/Software%20manuals%20-%20Third%20Party/4A%20DOS%20-%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf

 

Cover

ftp://whtech.com/datasheets%20and%20manuals/Software%20manuals%20-%20Third%20Party/4A%20DOS%20-%20Cover.pdf

 

I use that program so much, like 99% of the time that I'm thinking about changing the label on the cartridge from "Super Cart" to "4A DOS"!

 

Except 4A DOS does not work with Hard Drives nor can it access sectors on a Hard Drive.

For Floppies it is great but has no access to SCSI or HFDC or IDE or WaferTape or as far as I know odd ball RAMDISKS like the Myarc 512K or Horizon 4 Meg RAMDISK.

I did test 4A DOS on these against RXB and 4A DOS lost big time.

 

It is a great program, but very narrow in use.

[Omega-TI]

Except 4A DOS does not work with Hard Drives nor can it access sectors on a Hard Drive.

For Floppies it is great but has no access to SCSI or HFDC or IDE or WaferTape or as far as I know odd ball RAMDISKS like the Myarc 512K or Horizon 4 Meg RAMDISK.

I did test 4A DOS on these against RXB and 4A DOS lost big time.

 

It is a great program, but very narrow in use.

 

Well, being that I use a Nano-PEB I have no SCSI, HFDC, IDE or WaferTape. So this is NOT a concern to me, or a lot of other people without hard drives for that matter. If I had one of those items I might be using something else. The world being what it is, many people run different configurations and different equipment, with this in mind 4A DOS REALLY, REALLY works well for me.

 

Okay, I knew the RXB comparison was coming, it always does... but as you know I run a real TI and I do not have and RXB cartridge, so it does not matter to me if RXB could kick a deities keister from here to Sunday, I use what I have and again it REALLY, REALLY works well for me. That being said, it would probably work well for others WITHOUT hard drives or an RXB cartridge as well.

[+OLD CS1]

I have a few of the 8k Supercarts. They're also useful for writing software that you need JUST a bit more memory than the 32k expansion provides.

 

The ideal, of course, is to have a Superspace II cartridge with multiple 8k pages that you could write a very large and complicated program in. I really REALLY wish I'd ordered one from the Triton catalog way back when... they're so super rare now that they NEVER come up on eBay. I'm pretty sure every 99'er who has one has it locked in a death grip.

 

Adamantyr

BTW, there is a guy on eBay who has turned up a stash of TI stuff in an old True Value. I have not heard back from him about the vastness of this find, but his auctions indicate there will be a big dump onto the market. One of the things he has is a Super Space II cart. I have seen THREE on eBay recently (one of which I picked up, but without disks and manuals... meh.)

 

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=4&pub=5574883395&toolid=10001&campid=5336500554&customid=&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F350879385759

 

I am looking forward to seeing what I can do with this cart once it arrives.

 

There is at least one Super Space (8k) cart up, as well.

[+Ksarul]

There are apparently two sellers with items from this stash, I've bought items from both of them now (and they are different people, based on the names and shipping addresses used). That store had a lot of stuff, more NOS Navarone and third-party disk/cassette programs than I've seen hit the market in the last 10 years combined. between them, they had almost as many copies of Exceltek Extended BASIC as I've seen sold over the last five years. I'm glad they put all of these things up for sale instead of trashing them though! I was missing some of those items in my collection.

[+OLD CS1]

There are apparently two sellers with items from this stash, I've bought items from both of them now (and they are different people, based on the names and shipping addresses used). That store had a lot of stuff, more NOS Navarone and third-party disk/cassette programs than I've seen hit the market in the last 10 years combined. between them, they had almost as many copies of Exceltek Extended BASIC as I've seen sold over the last five years. I'm glad they put all of these things up for sale instead of trashing them though! I was missing some of those items in my collection.

 

Yup, and I said as much to one of them. I am very glad to see stuff hit the market again, even if I cannot afford to buy everything I want!

[CantStopClicking]

The biggest issue I keep seeing come up in this comparisons war are these:

 

1) SAMS isn't available

2) HFDC's aren't available

3) RXB isn't available

4) GRAM devices aren't available

 

What does this leave the real hardware finatics (like me) to do?

 

I refuse to use emulation software except for very rare situations. Emulators in my experience are; slow, clunky, cumbersome, in-accurate, random issues, incompatibility between flavors, disk image issues, and just general plain PITA. I've got the real hardware and it works just awesome. And once, support for an emulator is gone, you're sunk. Thankfully, our community seems to keep on top of that, kudo's to all that apply!

 

Personally, I'd rather invest my development time designing new hardware to make the old hardware better! Like the NanoPEB (albiet I don't like the design at all and therefore do not own one).

 

So, until someone comes up with a solution to the HARDWARE problems, software side is almost useless. Unless, you just love your emulator so much and don't mind the inconsistencies. Unfortuantely, I do not have patience for wasting my time trying to figure out why something doesn't work only to find out the emulator is the culprit.

 

I'm really not bitching because everyone has put a lot of energy into this hobby and it IS definitely appreciated. I've just found after using the emulators, I much prefer the rock solid real deal.

 

I'd rather see more apps written for modern computers that do the job of tasks the TI isn't capable, or well able, to do. IE: Compilers, Debuggers, TI99DIR, image manipulation, etc. that take the time and effort that emulators DO positively provide. For example, if you're developing new software its much easier to work on a modern machine and do all the editing and testing in a modern OS. But to have to debug software for a emulator in an emulator only to find it doesn't work on a TI is a waste of time and it makes me think twice about spending any time on it at all. And, that's bad for trying to encourage new ideas let alone new people.

 

I have a solution to this I've been dreaming up in my head but, that's were it's remained. I'll start a new post with that idea once I'm ready to divulge it and take a beating and some embarassement.

 

My $.02 worth!

 

-Dano

[Omega-TI]

The biggest issue I keep seeing come up in this comparisons war are these:

 

1) SAMS isn't available

2) HFDC's aren't available

3) RXB isn't available

4) GRAM devices aren't available

 

What does this leave the real hardware finatics (like me) to do?

 

 

In my case, by necessity I've locked myself into a limited path. Because of limited room and funds to devote to a full-blown system, I have to make do with what I *CAN* use, or what I can buy at a REASONABLE rate. To me the TI is a hobby, not an obsession. Now if it were not for the F18A and the Nano-PEB, I would never have gotten back into the TI. I owe those two designers and builders my undying gratitude.... THANK'S GUYS!

 

Now I've seen your Super-Mega System, so I totally understand why a Nano-PEB does not interest you, but for me, it works... but I also see you are still expanding, with the F18A fo example, so I see you are getting ready for the next level in TI gaming via the F18A

 

The hard truth is, in my opinion, the best hardware on the planet is utterly useless if it's unobtainable either by rarity or expense. Heck, even if I did have the money, I would not spend $100.00 or more for a card that only benefits me on one or two programs and that I might run only once or twice.

 

Now there are somethings I would love to see, but probably never will, but in the meantime I'm going to use what I have and what is available.

[CantStopClicking]

After re-reading what I wrote, I think I might have mis-stated what I meant. I meant that; software that takes advantage of the emulated hardware (SAMS, GRAM, etc) is of no use on the real TI for the majority of people. So that splinters useablility quite abit between emulator folks and real hardware folks and the fortunate few to have the extra goodies such as those SAMS cards and hard as heck to obtain items.

 

If the Nano had SAMS, GRAM-Kracker, Time, RAMdisk, and HDX/RS232 support, it would be the bee's knees. Of course, that's only my opinion, of a perfect Nano solution. If I could pay $200 for that, it would be still less than any of those pieces alone and I think most people would still choose to buy it at that price.

 

However, that's still not my ultimate solution stirring in my head. lol

 

-Dano

[TheMole]

After re-reading what I wrote, I think I might have mis-stated what I meant. I meant that; software that takes advantage of the emulated hardware (SAMS, GRAM, etc) is of no use on the real TI for the majority of people. So that splinters useablility quite abit between emulator folks and real hardware folks and the fortunate few to have the extra goodies such as those SAMS cards and hard as heck to obtain items.

 

If the Nano had SAMS, GRAM-Kracker, Time, RAMdisk, and HDX/RS232 support, it would be the bee's knees. Of course, that's only my opinion, of a perfect Nano solution. If I could pay $200 for that, it would be still less than any of those pieces alone and I think most people would still choose to buy it at that price.

 

However, that's still not my ultimate solution stirring in my head. lol

 

-Dano

 

This I can agree with to a certain extend. I think we're lucky in the TI community to have at least two high quality emulation environments available for testing, 'cause in most circumstances testing on an emulator first before moving to hardware with the current tools we have will save you time (thanks to the built-in debuggers, for sure, but also simply because getting the files onto the real deal is a PITA. Not even talking about the ability to develop further on a program on nothing but a laptop when away for business). But indeed, there's no point arguing about better solutions that are either extremely rare, virtual only or ridiculously expensive. Who cares that the SAMS has 1M of memory when you can count the people who have a physical unit on one hand (slight exaggeration, but still...).

 

It's different for hardware that's still being made though, anyone who wants to can get their hands on an F18A for a reasonable price (and to a certain extend a nanoPeb as well), so we should do everything we can to support the proliferation of these devices, even if that means showing of some of it's features in an emulation environment or writing software that only a minority will be able to use...

[Asmusr]

When I'm done with my current game (Scramble) I'm very keen on working (together) on a project where a Raspberry Pi computer ($25) is connected to the side port of a TI for the emulation of various expansion hardware. The 32K expansion would probably be the easiest place to start, but the possibilities are endless (floppy, hdd, SAMS, HDX, RS-232, real time clock, ...). The idea is that anyone can buy a RPi and make a cable for less than the price of a single cart or nanoPEB without any expert hardware knowledge (perhaps we can't avoid a bit of soldering). The software side could be written in C or Java and could become a community project that anyone can contribute to. It's probably possible to have a custom TI case made for the RPi (it's not much bigger than a cartridge case).

 

Do you know if anyone are working on this already? Is there any reason why this would be very difficult to do? Anyone want to participate?

[Willsy]

Do you know if anyone are working on this already? Is there any reason why this would be very difficult to do? Anyone want to participate?

 

The only possible thing I can think of is the speed. Whilst of course the Pi is many time faster than the 9900, we're (of course) not talking about emulation of the 9900 here; we're talking about emulation of a hardware bus. That means very accurate speed. Probably syncing to the TI's clock via the edge connector. I'd say C with static memory allocation is probably a better candidate than, say, Java, which has some non-deterministic properties (though I personally prefer Java as a programming language!).

 

Some extra hardware would also be needed, would it not? Does the Pi come with enough digital I/O to interface with the TI bus in both directions?

 

It's a brilliant concept.

[Asmusr]

Some extra hardware would also be needed, would it not? Does the Pi come with enough digital I/O to interface with the TI bus in both directions?

You can buy a 'IO Pi 32 Channel Port Expander for the Raspberry Pi computer boards' for £17:

 

http://www.abelectronics.co.uk/products/3/Raspberry-Pi/18/IO-Pi-32-Channel-Port-Expander-for-the-Raspberry-Pi-computer-boards

 

You can stack them if you need more pins.

[Asmusr]

The only possible thing I can think of is the speed. Whilst of course the Pi is many time faster than the 9900, we're (of course) not talking about emulation of the 9900 here; we're talking about emulation of a hardware bus. That means very accurate speed. Probably syncing to the TI's clock via the edge connector. I'd say C with static memory allocation is probably a better candidate than, say, Java, which has some non-deterministic properties (though I personally prefer Java as a programming language!).

There's a test here where the maximum speed using a native C library is measured to 14-22 Mhz.

http://codeandlife.com/2012/07/03/benchmarking-raspberry-pi-gpio-speed/

I don't know if that would be enough?

 

[Edit: note that the above test is for writing to a single pin, we need to do much more than that, of course.]

[Asmusr]

Hmm, it's probably more complicated than I thought. Here is a guy who has made a Commodore 64 disk drive from an RPi:

 

http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/207/MakingARaspberryPiIn

 

He has written a Linux Kernel Module to handle the timing.

[TheMole]

Hmm, it's probably more complicated than I thought. Here is a guy who has made a Commodore 64 disk drive from an RPi:

 

http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/207/MakingARaspberryPiIn

 

He has written a Linux Kernel Module to handle the timing.

 

Indeed, and the IEC bus is only a serial bus, nothing like the direct access to the data bus (well, relatively direct anyway) you'd need for a soft-PEB style replacement. I'd say that a Rpi sidecar is an order of magnitude more difficult...

[Omega-TI]

After re-reading what I wrote, I think I might have mis-stated what I meant. I meant that; software that takes advantage of the emulated hardware (SAMS, GRAM, etc) is of no use on the real TI for the majority of people. So that splinters useablility quite abit between emulator folks and real hardware folks and the fortunate few to have the extra goodies such as those SAMS cards and hard as heck to obtain items.

 

 

Coming from that perspective, I totally agree and understand. In my case, if it looks like I cannot run it on my REAL system, I don't bother with it emulation. I do not like to tease myself with something I cannot run on my real box. Also, I don't always have a lot of time on my hands, so cannot invest time in learning something that will not work on my real box either. Besides, I would much rather enjoy my hobby NOW, with whatever is available, than wait for something that may never be. When something new and cool becomes available, I'll probably pop for it!

 

Now emulators do give people without those rare or expensive items a chance to see how they work and help them decide *IF* they might want to buy... one some day.... if one ever "comes along".... and you have enough money to win the bid.

Now I totally LOVE Classic99 ! I have it setup to mirror my real system to a T. If it were not for Classic99, I also would never have gotten back into the TI at all! That program reminded me how much fun the TI really was.

[Tursi]

When I'm done with my current game (Scramble) I'm very keen on working (together) on a project where a Raspberry Pi computer ($25) is connected to the side port of a TI for the emulation of various expansion hardware. The 32K expansion would probably be the easiest place to start, but the possibilities are endless (floppy, hdd, SAMS, HDX, RS-232, real time clock, ...). The idea is that anyone can buy a RPi and make a cable for less than the price of a single cart or nanoPEB without any expert hardware knowledge (perhaps we can't avoid a bit of soldering). The software side could be written in C or Java and could become a community project that anyone can contribute to. It's probably possible to have a custom TI case made for the RPi (it's not much bigger than a cartridge case).

 

Do you know if anyone are working on this already? Is there any reason why this would be very difficult to do? Anyone want to participate?

 

I've been working on a related concept (since before the Pi existed, mind ), with the idea of it being an interface device (rather than a do-it-all device, although I might still have some notes for that... I will look.) Memory would be the hardest thing to implement due to the timing requirements, but everything else is pretty easy. The FIAD filesystem code in Classic99 is targetted for that device, as is the disk image code (which is why I wrote my own first rather than just implementing the TI controller card).

 

I did a demonstration a few years ago at the Chicago TI Faire that shows a Linux board running in a TI cartridge wusing my GROM interface code, which was to demonstrate that bi-directional communication could be done.

 

I used to talk about it from time to time, but it reached the point where the next demo was to be a working one. I haven't got around to it yet.

[Tursi]

There's a test here where the maximum speed using a native C library is measured to 14-22 Mhz.

http://codeandlife.com/2012/07/03/benchmarking-raspberry-pi-gpio-speed/

I don't know if that would be enough?

 

[Edit: note that the above test is for writing to a single pin, we need to do much more than that, of course.]

 

You need a parallel throughput of about 1 megabyte per second to keep up. If you can hit the READY line quickly enough, you can slow down the TI to run at your speed, though, which is good for prototyping (to be reliable you need to do it in one 3MHz cycle, but in practice, due to the wait state generator, you might be okay if you can hit it within 4 ).

 

One of my favorite ideas for this device was remote control... with the full bus available, you can sniff the VDP accesses and emulate it externally. You'd need some trickery (or some software) to get keypresses back into the machine, but it would be possible.

[+OLD CS1]

Does anyone know where I can pick up copies of the disks which were included with the Super Space II cartridge?

[RXB]

Personally being retired I can no longer afford to buy and fix hardware of the TI99/4A as it costs was way to much and out of reach for what I was doing.

 

Emulators do not cost a freaking dime and work 100% of the time from several OS or from VM Ware or Virtual PC emulation too.

 

As for SAMS and GRAM hundreds of these devices have been built in several forms from several vendors over the years.

(Homebuilt GRAM CARTS qualify along with the Home Built memory expansions)

 

When a device is less then 40 in a life span of 10 years that would be a fad. Thus the SAMS and GRAM Devices do not fit this classification.

 

The problem is all special hardware get thrown away as the vendor to fix them no longer exists.

 

Now building new devices and supporting them is great, but any device is not the BEST just because it is NEW.

 

The amount of software that supports the device has to be a consideration.

 

My 2 cents.

[+adamantyr]

I bought one of the Super Space II cartriges from one of the eBay Sellers... word of warning. I noticed the "sealed" package he offered didn't seem to have a cartridge in it, so I messaged him about it. He was surprised to learn that the product was actually a cartridge, so he told me he'd send me one with the cartridge that he had, rather than just the disks.

 

Adamantyr