Would you support a crowd funded, brand new, Atari 2600 console?

[kevtris]

To clarify raspberry pi proposal - the idea behind my breakout board would be a mass produced board which has the common requirements of an 8-bit computer/console, the purchaser would then customise it with a carrier containing the 8bit + custom chip logic

 

The reason I mentioned curts flashback design is it is already available yes it would need funding but I don't think that raising the money for reproducing the asic would be that difficult on kickstarter. As I have already mentioned Jeri Ellsworth is apparently sitting on a 150K stockpile of C64DTV lets see some collaboration

 

Kevtris: Your ideas are great but how much would each unit cost?

 

Curt: Are you able to use the "Flashback" name for products or is that exclusive to Atari?

 

Yeah the problem with that is a raspberry pi, a breakout board and then plug in boards would cost lots of money. The r-pi is subsidized anyways, so what you can buy it for is not the true cost of making it. Also, as far as I can tell, the chip on it is not buyable. I cannot buy it from digikey or mouser and slap it on a board- It's only available on the r-pi board.

 

My device would be quite small, a single board, and built using parts that can be bought from Digikey (or similar). This means I can buy parts, have boards stuffed, and then sell 'em. It does not require anyone else to produce something for it (re: custom ASICs, r-pi boards, etc).

 

The FPGA chip on the device is designed to simulate MANY different things, and not just pigeon-holed for a single system. There's no breakout boards needed. The work for all 9 systems I listed is *done* already. Those systems are fully done, debugged, and tested, and can be loaded into the FPGA essentially at will. Making a PCB for it is the easy part. The hard part's done already.

 

As for cost, there's very little startup cost to this- everything's off the shelf hardware and no custom ASICs need to be made or designed for it. I can make a new PCB, throw the parts on it, and away we go. The hard part is WHAT it would be, and how much hardware people would want to pay for.

 

A "generic" 2600 with 16Mbytes of RAM, SD card slot, on-screen menu and video out (composite, HDMI/DVI, RGB, s-video, VGA) would cost around $75 in low quantities, or $50 in larger quantities. The PCB would be a bit bigger than a deck of playing cards. Probably 2 controllers only (4 would cost more), and a user port to make controller adapters for "real" controllers.

 

A better system (the kind I would really like to make) would be: all the above, a bigger FPGA, a microcontroller (for loading new FPGA fusemaps) to allow for multiple systems. NES on down as stated earlier. Could also run lots of arcade games. This is in the $150ish range I think, Size is an NES cartridge or a tad bigger.

 

The "best" system is all of the above, with a bigger FPGA yet, and more RAM. This would be enough oomph to emulate the 16 bit consoles (neogeo, genesis, SNES) and lots more arcade machines. This is in the $200-225 range maybe. Size would be the same as the "better" system.

 

The costs are based on maybe 100-200 units, and if more are made the costs can go down quite a bit. 1000 range would be ideal and costs could be brought down I dunno, 30-40%? It's very hard to gauge these things. If I only make 10 of them, cost is of course higher. I just dunno if the market is there for these things. I really would hope it is, but again, no clue.

[kevtris]

I don't think you can succeed with an fpga type design unless its open source - look to the minimig as an example.

 

 

 

I don't think it being closed source or open source matters to 99.9% of people buying it. The just want to play games on it. I will not open source my FPGA or microcontroller code, but as I said previously I would provide an SDK for using the board to run your own FPGA stuff. This would allow others to provide open source cores if they wish. As stated previously, I license out my cores already (CPU cores mainly but have licensed others) so they will not be open source. As it stands, it's all modular so it shouldn't be TOO tough for people to drop in other FPGA cores if they want to. You'd basically put it on the SD card and then add it to the system.cfg text file and that's all there is to it.

[+batari]

The Raspberry Pi would (in theory) be viable because even though it may be subsidized, you can buy as many as you want. The bigger issue is that it doesn't have enough dedicated GPIO pins to directly interface with anything useful. I checked and it has just seven! While it's true that some pins might be able to be reconfigured for GPIO, it looks like at best you have 16 which is still not nearly enough. Worse, these pins are not sequential meaning it vastly complicates the interfacing.

 

Sure I suppose you could interleave the GPIO but by then the 700 MHz clock is getting really slow to work in real time.

 

The best bet for the Pi is as an emulator but I don't think that's the point here.

[+Gemintronic]

The Raspberry Pi would (in theory) be viable because even though it may be subsidized, you can buy as many as you want. The bigger issue is that it doesn't have enough dedicated GPIO pins to directly interface with anything useful. I checked and it has just seven! While it's true that some pins might be able to be reconfigured for GPIO, it looks like at best you have 16 which is still not nearly enough. Worse, these pins are not sequential meaning it vastly complicates the interfacing.

 

Sure I suppose you could interleave the GPIO but by then the 700 MHz clock is getting really slow to work in real time.

 

The best bet for the Pi is as an emulator but I don't think that's the point here.

 

With the Pi you could skip using the GPIO and just use X to USB joystick adapters (where X is the preferred retro joystick)

 

Nevertheless, it sounds like the best doable solution we agree on is the Kevtris way.

[Andromeda Stardust]

@kevtris: you said you can emulate the Neo-Geo but not the TG-16 with the "best" FPGA option. Isn't the Neo-Geo a lot more powerful than the TG-16, both in RAM and clock cycles? I know I keep wailing on about Turbo and how you said it can't be done, but I already own SNES and Genesis, and I'm not interested in Neo-Geo (because the majority of it's games are fighting games and beat-em-ups which I generally suck at). TG-16 support would really be the tipping point between me putting down the extra money for the "best" system. Otherwise, I'd simply buy the "better" model.

 

Also, you said earlier that you can emulate the Vectrex CRT into a frame buffer and output it at VGA resolution. Is that possible with the "better" scenario, or does it require the "best" option? Thanks; i look forward to this a lot.

 

Another quick question: You said the "best" version will support both SNES and Genesis. Does that include support for the 16-bit expansion chips, like DSP1, Super FX, and SA-1? What about 32X Genesis games? If FPGA headroom is an issue, then each expansion chip could get it's own build instead of being bundled as an all-in-one.

[mos6507]

As for controllers, I was going to go for 2 USB controller ports, or 4 for slightly more money. I may keep the expansion port on the back to allow plugging in "real" controllers via adapter cables.

 

Would these ports work with Stelladapters?

[barnieg]

I was thinking something along the lines of this http://teholabs.com/2012/08/cpild/ for the Raspberry Pi , but obviously the question is how much cost it adds

 

 

 

The Raspberry Pi would (in theory) be viable because even though it may be subsidized, you can buy as many as you want. The bigger issue is that it doesn't have enough dedicated GPIO pins to directly interface with anything useful. I checked and it has just seven! While it's true that some pins might be able to be reconfigured for GPIO, it looks like at best you have 16 which is still not nearly enough. Worse, these pins are not sequential meaning it vastly complicates the interfacing.

 

Sure I suppose you could interleave the GPIO but by then the 700 MHz clock is getting really slow to work in real time.

 

The best bet for the Pi is as an emulator but I don't think that's the point here.

[R. Jones]

There's a lot of crazy fascinating posts about the technical biz on here, so don't let me throw a wet blanket on that, but . . .

 

(I'm not sexist, but . . . )

 

Before we can make this new console we have to know what is we're making. Before we know what is we're making, we have to know why we're making it. It's not feasible to compete with Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or Apple. They've got people, money, trademarks, back catalogs, distribution channels, and organization. This new "Atari" console would have to thrive on that mixture of retro, nostalgia, archeology, classic game play, and hipster aesthetics that makes things New Super Mario Bros and the Flashbacks successful.

 

We also cannot make a pure 2600 clone. Used 2600's are cheaper than what we'd be making. The flashback survives because it's very cheap and very easy. The cost of a used 2600, plus controllers, plus a switch box, plus a VCR, plus thirty or so games, plus several rare prototypes, plus a tv mod, would put one in the hundreds of dollars range. The flashback also just works. You buy it, you plug it into the wall, you plug it into the TV, and you play. With no back catalog comparable to Atari we couldn't make something that would be as cheap or as easy.

 

A new console has to do something that neither a used 2600, nor a Flashback can do. A few ideas:

- fit in your pocket

- be a wireless USB controller where the "stick" would connect to the wireless controllers, hold game files (ROM, cover art, manuals), and run the 2600 software

- be a phone (this would also allow you to subsidize the cost, and provides a distribution channel for games)

- have a button, on the controller labeled "Manual" or "Book". When you pressed this button, the game would pause, and you'd be able to browse through a hypertext manual that reuses the artwork from the original game.

- play other consoles games (Commodore, Nes, Super Nes, Genesis; I'm from the Gulf Coast. We don't have Sinclairs or Turbo Grafx.)

- or something no one has ever seen before

- or some combination of the above

Edited March 14, 2013 by R. Jones

[+Gemintronic]

I think there's a human factor here to consider:

 

* Making the 2600 clone a unique gadget will drastically reduce the customers who get it (and thus buy it)

* People are prejudiced against emulation - even when emulation exceeds features in real hardware.

* People seem to think you need a brand name or approval for an Atari clone even though Coleco won (See Gemini)

 

Given all these constraints I say use Kevtris's expertise and kickstarter the thing. All it needs is his existing FPGA Arcade boards, a case and a cart slot.

 

Let's get to the doing phase!!!!!

[R. Jones]

Possibly.

 

Kevtris mentioned a $250 portable system with no cartridge slot, that play the games of a multitude of systems. That's something that I feel a lot of people could get hyped about. I'm saving up for holiday atm, but otherwise I know I'd personally plonk down the electronic simulation of cash that carries the same value as cash but not the satisfying ability to be plonked down a counter.

 

A $75 atari clone is a bit different. For $75 when I got into the Atari 2600, I got: a 6-switch, all the cables, encounter at L5, VideoSports, a set of paddles, golf, a pair of Generic gamepads, combat, Gravitar, Kaboom, and Football.

Edited March 14, 2013 by R. Jones

[yllawwally]

For me the console, would allow me to have all the atari cartridge systems hooked to my TV, without my wife saying I have too many systems. Four machines in one, removes a lot of clutter. And the size would be smaller than any of the console machines originally were. I don't want a portable version. I'll use my phone emulators for that. I want something that can play my cartridges, and allow me to use the original controllers. The only additions I would like are updated video out for modern tv's, and perhaps the pause button. An SD slot would be nice for some games, that I don't have carts for. With several cartridge slots it could never fit in a pocket. No wireless modern joystick, needed. Although you're virtual manual idea, does sound interesting. For me if this costs a 100 dollars, I would buy it. I don't think the 250 portable, would be very successful. It's too expensive for the average person. The people that care about exacting emulation, would probably want to be able use original controllers, and original carts. This system is for collectors. The kind of people that have 6 different consoles hooked up to their tv.

[barnieg]

Have any of you seen this based on previous work:

 

https://github.com/GadgetFactory/Papilio-Arcade/tree/master/A2601

 

Running on hardware from:

 

http://www.gadgetfactory.net/

 

Taking existing projects and building on them I think is the way to go.

 

 

For carts I think it would need an option to follow theloon's idea of using retrode although I haven't seen costs to that option on the site any ideas?

[Andromeda Stardust]

For carts I think it would need an option to follow theloon's idea of using retrode although I haven't seen costs to that option on the site any ideas?

I seriously doubt that the retro will properly support bank-switched ROMs over 4k. Untill someone posts a review and attempts to load Jr Pacman, proove me wrong. I hope they prove me wrong, but currently i don't see it.

[kevtris]

Have any of you seen this based on previous work:

 

https://github.com/G...ee/master/A2601

 

Running on hardware from:

 

http://www.gadgetfactory.net/

 

Taking existing projects and building on them I think is the way to go.

 

A quick perusal of the design shows that it was stripped down past the point of usability:

 

* To load a new game or games into the device, you have to use a JTAG cable and the ISE webpack FPGA dev environment to load a new FPGA fusemap to it and send it the ROMs through JTAG. Why not an SD card slot?

 

* No undocumented opcodes are supported by the 6502 core, so that means many homebrews will fail to function at all or correctly.

 

* The video and audio "DACs" are just R2R resistor ladders which are slow and degrade audio/video quality. To save a buck they went with these crappy "DACs" which give sub-par quality outputs. Check out the screenshots to see how bad the video is. Plenty of bleed and noise in that video. Audio probably is about the same.

 

* The site says that several TIA tricks don't work like the Cosmic Ark "star field" effect and the Supercharger don't work. There's no PAL output either.

 

* Doesn't look like it's been touched since around 2006 according to the blog post.

 

If they were going for the "let's see how cheap we can make a thing that plays some Atari games in as few parts as possible" then they would indeed win a prize.

 

For carts I think it would need an option to follow theloon's idea of using retrode although I haven't seen costs to that option on the site any ideas?

 

I looked up the Retrode and it costs $85 US. This is about the same as what I was thinking of charging for a base model system, and to use the Retrode, you'd still need a piece of hardware to run the games, and if something like that 2601 was used, a USB chip to interface it. That's all going to add up to lots more money.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I looked up the Retrode and it costs $85 US. This is about the same as what I was thinking of charging for a base model system, and to use the Retrode, you'd still need a piece of hardware to run the games, and if something like that 2601 was used, a USB chip to interface it. That's all going to add up to lots more money.

Kind of off topic, but since the Retrode has been brought up, does anybody know if the following Retrode SNES-to-Atari adapter will work for bankswapped games larger than 4kb (like Jr Pacman or others)? If so, it would be a neat and inexpensive tool for dumping games.

 

http://www.retrode.o...ug-in-adapters/

Edited March 16, 2013 by stardust4ever

[+Gemintronic]

Kind of off topic, but since the Retrode has been brought up, does anybody know if the following Retrode SNES-to-Atari adapter will work for bankswapped games larger than 4kb (like Jr Pacman or others)? If so, it would be a neat and inexpensive tool for dumping games.

 

http://www.retrode.o...ug-in-adapters/

 

I'd wait until he comes out with the new pre-assembled 2600 connectors with case. The original bare boards were confusing to connect and never worked right for me. Matthias is an AtariAge member and did try to help. I think by the time the cased units are available maybe some magic firmware updates will also up the chance for proper backups.

 

Despite my experience with 2600 games the SNES and Genesis dumping is dead simple and very tolerant of aging carts.

[barnieg]

Where to start!

 

I think the opensource stuff based on the A2601 is useful, the point of it being that it can be built on and improved

 

The Retrode - nice idea but way too expensive!!

 

Kevtris you've provided some decent Unique Selling Points to your core and idea's a few questions:

 

To start with would be possible to design your board to fit existing case designs maybe requiring minimal/no modification, I think a mini-itx or something that fits an existing 2600jr or 600XL case reduces the need for new case at this moment in time and can fund an all in one unit with new casing if required.

 

Rather than no cartridge port or tied to one specific system how about a full 6502 edge connector with separate adapters, may be it could follow PBI specs? A loading a new core and adding a different cart adapter and you have a new Atari "personality" and an sd card slot would be the adapter becomes optional rather than essential

 

What would be nice would be the option to drop chips onto Board i.e maybe a Pokey for example

 

There is another potential market - Atari Consoles and Computers are getting older and at some point more and more will fail - drop in replacements that include modest enhancements can extend the life of these systems and setups

 

Finally collaboration, is it possible for more working together with The Candle's and Curt's of the Atari World to get some new products out the door?

Edited March 17, 2013 by barnieg

[Paulo Peccin]

Speaking of JStella, this is better:

 

javatari.org

 

I use it on my web site for Seaweed Assault and Tone Toy 2008.

 

That's what I was playing with recently, then. The Java stuff has really come of age. I never thought Java would run Atari stuff smoothly, but it's like butter on my most recent hardware. Brute force wins in the end.

 

"Brute force wins in the end."

 

That's true, but not all the truth.

Not just the hardware evolved. The Java VM technology had many advancements in the last years. Today the JIT Compilers (just-in-time compilers) are pretty awesome. They can analyze the running Java code and compile it to native code in real time, so Java virtual machine code is not all interpreted anymore. It is still heavier than true native code, but not too much.

 

Javatari uses light and very optimized Java code. It does not use heavy 3rd party libraries, and it makes intelligent use of Object and memory allocation so the Garbage Collector will not be running much.

If you write good code and make use of primitive types, the JIT compiler can make your code run in speeds comparable to C/C++ code.

 

Also, Javatari makes use of multi-threading so it can use more than one hardware processor in parallel if available (almost always true in today's computers)

 

Regards,

Peccin

Edited March 17, 2013 by Paulo Peccin

[kevtris]

Where to start!

 

I think the opensource stuff based on the A2601 is useful, the point of it being that it can be built on and improved

 

Yes this'd be true if there was someone to work on it, but it seems like it'd need to be totally retooled, which means a total rewrite from scratch.

 

 

The Retrode - nice idea but way too expensive!!

 

Kevtris you've provided some decent Unique Selling Points to your core and idea's a few questions:

 

To start with would be possible to design your board to fit existing case designs maybe requiring minimal/no modification, I think a mini-itx or something that fits an existing 2600jr or 600XL case reduces the need for new case at this moment in time and can fund an all in one unit with new casing if required.

 

Rather than no cartridge port or tied to one specific system how about a full 6502 edge connector with separate adapters, may be it could follow PBI specs? A loading a new core and adding a different cart adapter and you have a new Atari "personality" and an sd card slot would be the adapter becomes optional rather than essential

 

Yes it can fit into anything, the PCB has to just be made to fit. Making new PCBs, at least for me of an existing thing, is quite simple, a couple day job depending on lots of factors. It would be possible to make some kind of extender doodad with the particular hardware pieces of say an Atari 400 or whathaveyou but that means one for each core. I was going to add expansion but I wasn't going to have something with that much probably. FPGA pins are scarce resources usually.

 

 

 

What would be nice would be the option to drop chips onto Board i.e maybe a Pokey for example

 

 

Yeah, that's what's so nice about the FPGA- these can be added to the FPGA itself, so it no longer is required to use "real" chips. I did something like that on my NES core awhile back: I connected my 2600 TIA core to the NES' two square wave channels and the triangle wave (leaving noise/DPCM the same). I then made some recordings of that as I played NES music using the TIA channels. Unlike the TIA's small divider I use the full NES divider so it has a proper pitch range. This was just a 5 minute hack though so it's a bit rough around the edges, and was mainly to prove the point it could be done. Here's some examples of this:

 

http://blog.kevtris.org/blogfiles/nes%20tia/

 

I quite like the two Faxanadu ones, but most of the others came out fairly decent, too.

[potatohead]

Fun exercise! It's strange hearing the tunes reproduced that way. Thanks for linking those.

[Dr Manhattan]

Damn this topic is interesting! So many great replies. Definitely popcorn worthy!

 

Edited March 18, 2013 by Dr Manhattan

[barnieg]

Adding a true edge connector may require a real processor + the FPGA core with the scarcity of spare pins. As all the Atari 8-bits use a 6502 or variation A first board could justify a full 6502. It would also free of FPGA space for other stuff

[kevtris]

Adding a true edge connector may require a real processor + the FPGA core with the scarcity of spare pins. As all the Atari 8-bits use a 6502 or variation A first board could justify a full 6502. It would also free of FPGA space for other stuff

 

The 6502 is easily included in the FPGA. There's no benefit to not making it in the FPGA- it's the same number of pins either way (data bus / address bus in vs. data bus / address bus out). The FPGA way also eliminates the need to find 6502's which aren't being made any more. I think WDC still makes 65C02's (or maybe just 65C816's now) but those don't handle the undocumented opcodes the same way. If you wanted more pins you can go BGA on the FPGA- this will net a bunch more IOs but it also is a BGA which is harder to solder than the usual quad flat pack (QFP). I am going to eventually move to BGAs but at the moment I am still using QFPs. The biggest QFP is 240 pins and the same FPGA chip in BGA is 434 balls which is almost 2x as many connections. Lots of those are more IOs (and a bunch of power/grounds too).

 

What kind of peripherals were you thinking, stuff like controller ports and keyboards and cart slots and stuff? If so, it's definitely doable but needs level translation since the FPGA is 3.3V maximum on its IOs and the usual things on the systems are 5V. That brought up another thing I forgot to reply about, re how to read the pots for the paddles (or 5200 analog inputs, etc). To read the pots I would most likely do it like the real system did- charging up a capacitor and monitoring the RC time constant, vs. using an ADC. This way is cheaper and is how the "real" system did it.

[barnieg]

Peripherals and expansions I'm thinking along the lines of 2 model boards with similar functionality but one physically fitting in a 2600 or 7800 etc shell and the other in a 600xl Possibly even an ITX version - as a start a simple poll would gauge the best way forward, alternatively a "Personality board" with FPGA and most of the complex logic could be universal with 2 levels i.e 8-bit then 16-bit, the personality board would plug into a carrier which is designed to fit an appropriate case - with the right specs these could be created by 3rd party

 

They would both be able to function in pretty much the same way i.e load a an appropriate personality core and load software with from sdcard

 

There needs to be a compromise between features and cost but I would think that having:

1. Atari console version - 7800 cart slot possibly even allowing the xm module to be plugged in?

2. 8-bit computer version with PBI slot and either cart slot or option to add one if possible include more memory typical of some of the common expansions

 

Have you seen the Mist project which is based on the minimig?

http://harbaum.org/t...ist/index.shtml It had DB9 and USB controlled from the arm processor

 

Another one I find interesting is:

http://www.retroleum.co.uk/v6z80p/

 

Note: One of the Reasons I like the Raspberry Pi is the GPIO allows direct access to control things the Atari type ports where USB tends to clutter with abstractions

 

As a final note creating a 2600 board with your supercharger core would probably be the quickest to produce? Harmony support either by cart port or embedded would be a bonus a benefit from being compatible with a lot of the newer homebrew

Edited March 18, 2013 by barnieg

[Andromeda Stardust]

Peripherals and expansions I'm thinking along the lines of 2 model boards with similar functionality but one physically fitting in a 2600 or 7800 etc shell and the other in a 600xl Possibly even an ITX version - as a start a simple poll would gauge the best way forward, alternatively a "Personality board" with FPGA and most of the complex logic could be universal with 2 levels i.e 8-bit then 16-bit, the personality board would plug into a carrier which is designed to fit an appropriate case - with the right specs these could be created by 3rd party.

Sorry, but i disagree with you on this stance. I do not believe recycling a vintage console shell to be a wise idea. People will buy a console just for the shell and then discard the (potentially working condition or easily fixable) guts, along with vintage chips and all. The idea behind the replacement clone is to supplement the dwindling supply of vintage consoles rather than reduce them.

 

@Kevtris: I do not know if it would cause timing problems or not, but if you don't have enough data I/O lines on the FPGA, you could potentially use series/parallel multiplex circuit to drive the auxiliary cartridge connections. For instance, a typical 8-bit console might use 16-bit addressing to access up to 64kbytes of ROM. To look up a specific ROM address, you could use a pair of serial-to-parallel 8-bit converters to provide the lookup address for the cartridge port, then use a parallel-to-serial converter to translate the 8-bit parallel ROM address output into a single input pin. So instead of requiring 24 FPGA pins (16 ouput lines plus 8 input lines) to read a cartridge ROM, you would only need 3 pins for the Input/Output and two additional pins for the clock/reset signal for the converter chips. On the NES, you would need additional series/parallel chips for the PRG and CHR ROMs and possibly additional circuits for the two-way bus lines. One caveat with this system is that you need to run the bus at 8x clock speed, so for instance if the console system bus runs at 1.79Mhz, then the FPGA bus will need to operate at least 14.32Mhz to perform the series/parallel conversions. Can the 74HCxx type chips handle a 14+ Mhz clock signal? I don't know if the high frequencies involved are a problem or not, but if your FPGA is fast enough to interface with USB ports, then it is definitely fast enough to I/O a serial connection at 8x speed compared to a classic console's 8-bit parallel bus. Just a little tip in case there's not enough output pins for a true cartridge interface. I understand that you plan on using SD cards for loading games, but the possibility for cartridge ports, even if it's only for the more common consoles, would definitely make the system more attractive for retro gamers. Also, a cartridge interface would allow collectors to dump carts to the SD card, which is wonderful for preservation of unreleased prototypes and also allows collectors to dump their own games instead of downloading ROMs off the Internet, which is technically illegal, even if you already own said games.