Would you support a crowd funded, brand new, Atari 2600 console?

[gorfcadet]

I agree about upscaling but not because of mass marketing a clone. If there were a huge demand for VCS clones then they would already be making them and the Flashbacks would have had cartridge connectors. Mass marketing a VCS clone would be just as successful of mass marketing Pong system clones. We are the market.

 

I agree with you on parts. There is a market for clone hardware. They won't be at WalMart. I see them at 3rd tier game shops and ebay all the time. I think the VCS would be most viable on a unit that also plays Nintendo and Sega. I think at this point NONE of the clones are doing the job until upscaling is built in. I want a New Genesis clone as well as the Atari, but there isn't a point to me until it does that one thing.

 

To be honest, I would be just as happy with a cost effective upscaler box for the old consoles. Right now, upscalers are too expensive and confusing. Its hard to know what you're getting.

[yllawwally]

I'd rather see a 7800 being made. This would widen the audience a little. I think it needs to have Cartridge Port, SD Card Slot, two 7800 joystick ports, Pause Button on console, Component and S-Video out (HDMI would add too much to the cost), NTSC/PAL selector switch, and be a Six Switch model. As an additional thing is it would be great to support 5200 games as well, but I'm not sure this is feasible.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I would vote for a 7800 clone as well. The reason being a clone for 7800 would likely not cost any more to produce than a clone for the 2600, and it would be backwards-compatible with VCS games. Even if there are problems with certian games, for example flashcarts or homebrew, it's not like the NES clones don't have similar issues, for example random glitches in some games, messed up audio, and not working at all with Castlevania III or the PowerPak. At times I simply found my Yobo clone very convenient whenever my NES acted up and refused to load a particular game (I've since corrected the issue by replacing the cartridge connector and more thorough cleaning of the carts). One thing I've noticed though, is that the current clone market only extends to the "popular" retro systems. The most popular consoles are generally combinations of the NES, SNES, and Genesis. Nobody has released an SMS clone or a TurboGrafix or NeoGeo clone, even though it would certainly be possible (I can understand the absence of N64 clones because the hardware is way too complex and powerful to be duplicated in a clone chip). Even though the VCS was a hugely successful console, there's just not as much market for it as NES. This is why Atari games are rock-bottom cheap even for uncommon games, compared to NES/SNES.

 

As for the "upscaling" debate, this introduces lag into the signal, and then the HDTV will lag the signal again to format it to the display. Retro consoles are 240p, and up-scaling to 480p will prevent interlacing artifacts which cause a problem with sprite flickering. Honestly, I cannot tell any difference between my DVD player between 480p, 720p, and 1080i modes. In fact, 720p works better on my 26" TV than 1080i (my 2006 TV set doesn't support 1080p). For a true lag free experience, analog S-video or composite on a CRT TV set is king.

[gorfcadet]

Still, crt is dead as much as I hate it and there is a need for upscaling on modern tvs. Wii upscales through emulation. There has to be a cost effective solution. Of course, I also thought there'd be a decent light gun solution for hdtvs by now; so what do I know.

 

Still don't have Duck Hunt for Wii! sniffle.

[Schizophretard]

I agree with you on parts. There is a market for clone hardware. They won't be at WalMart. I see them at 3rd tier game shops and ebay all the time. I think the VCS would be most viable on a unit that also plays Nintendo and Sega. I think at this point NONE of the clones are doing the job until upscaling is built in. I want a New Genesis clone as well as the Atari, but there isn't a point to me until it does that one thing.

 

To be honest, I would be just as happy with a cost effective upscaler box for the old consoles. Right now, upscalers are too expensive and confusing. Its hard to know what you're getting.

 

But the clone market is for the popular post video game crash systems. VCS, INTV, Colecovision,... can sell at best as plug and plays. If people were to choose between a clone with NES, Genesis, and VCS and a clone with just NES and Genesis then they would choose the clone without the VCS. The clone without the VCS would be cheaper and the clone with the VCS would have an extra cartridge slot they won't use. The younger generation of retro gamers don't go back more than NES and Genesis. In about 10 to 15 years or so their systems will also sell at best as plug and plays.

 

When I go into game shops, I see a small selection of VCS games if any. Everything else is Sega and Nintendo with clones, new RF cables, new controllers,... That new hardware sells because they have an abundance of games in store. They either buy them because they want to play those games that day, they like the smell of new plastic, or they live in the everything is expensive and rare eBay Twilight Zone where the original hardware is unattainable. The mass market is Storage Wars $13,000 NES-001 retro gamers who can't tell the difference between VCS, INTV, and Colecovision cartridges.

[Schizophretard]

Still, crt is dead as much as I hate it and there is a need for upscaling on modern tvs. Wii upscales through emulation. There has to be a cost effective solution. Of course, I also thought there'd be a decent light gun solution for hdtvs by now; so what do I know.

 

Still don't have Duck Hunt for Wii! sniffle.

 

The CRT is far from dead. There is a need for upscaling on modern TVs but a new VCS would also need to be backwards compatible with CRTs.

[gorfcadet]

I'm sure any new clone systems will be composite as that is the accepted norm. I don't see svideo on many tvs this year(very high price models mostly); I bought my mom a new one for Christmas and helped my grandmother pick one out as well. Most had a shared component/composite input, which was weird, and hdmis.

I don't expect to see a mass market vcs beyond Flashback, but it would be nice to see a Flashback with a cart slot on it. I don't see why it would be a cost crusher to add one since it already sells with two paddles and has a casing with room to spare.

Either way, I'm not losing sleep over it since I have two 7800s, a modded 4SW, and a SunnyH6. Just talking hypotheticals. People plunked down for 3 or 4 variations of the Flashback and major retailers carried those. The v2 FB people have been modding to have a cart slot, so yeah why not? I understand it is super niche, but if it can turn a profit more power to whoever.

 

@Schiz:

My crt isn't dead, but I don't see them in stores anymore and I am dreading the day my Pac Man monitor goes because to get that size most dealers are saying used or flat panel at the correct size. Uncle Sam won't allow crt monitors over a certain size to be produced or some such. I have 3 arcade cabs that are original parts and 2 mame cabs and my UN Squadron monitor is already going so I've been hunting. Other than Goodwill etc. where are you getting them these days?

[Schizophretard]

@Schiz:

My crt isn't dead, but I don't see them in stores anymore and I am dreading the day my Pac Man monitor goes because to get that size most dealers are saying used or flat panel at the correct size. Uncle Sam won't allow crt monitors over a certain size to be produced or some such. I have 3 arcade cabs that are original parts and 2 mame cabs and my UN Squadron monitor is already going so I've been hunting. Other than Goodwill etc. where are you getting them these days?

 

I get them all used but that makes them easier to obtain than back when stores only sold CRTs. If I set a goal to fill a storage shed with CRTs in one month, I could easily do it for dirt cheap. I couldn't say that 15 years ago.

 

They last a long time. When I was 17, I bought my first CRT with s-video to use with my first DVD player for around $500. I'm 31 and today it functions like the day I bought it. My first LCD I got in 2007. After about six months of having it, it had a problem with having to turn it on twice to get it on. I gave that one to a friend and am on my second one now. My oldest functioning CRT is from 1978. I doubt 35 years from now anyone on this forum will be able to claim that they have a functioning 35 year old LCD.

 

I don't think it matters too much that they don't sell CRTs in stores anymore. The main reason people buy new TVs is to upgrade. When they only sold CRTs people tossed functioning CRTs for better ones. When they came out with LCDs people tossed functioning CRTs for LCDs. Now people toss functioning LCDs for better LCDs. It's obvious that this is the main reason people buy new TVs because if it wasn't the case most people would still have CRTs. Upgrading isn't an issue with CRTs. The technology pretty much reached it's peak when they stopped making them. Also, the professional monitors are cheaper now. So, the only reason a retro gamer would need a new CRT is if their CRT broke and they couldn't find a used CRT with the functions they need. That won't happen for a very long time.

 

Since they are more obtainable now, they last a long time, and there is no upgrade issues, CRTs are more alive now then they ever were for retro gamers.

[roland p]

As for the "upscaling" debate, this introduces lag into the signal, and then the HDTV will lag the signal again to format it to the display. Retro consoles are 240p, and up-scaling to 480p will prevent interlacing artifacts which cause a problem with sprite flickering.

 

Your assumptions are based on a crappy scaler.

The lag introduced by the scaler can be minimal. I've heard that tv's have more lag on analog inputs than on progressive hdmi inputs. I don't see how scaling from 240p to 480p would prevent interlacing artifacts since there is no interlacing to begin with. I also see problems with flickering sprites and scanline issues on my tv, as if the signal is interpreted as a interlaced signal. A built-in scaler should not have this.

[Thorsten Günther]

After browsing this thread, I voted "yes". Preferrably a 7800 clone instead of a 2600 for the same resaons already mentioned in this thread.

 

I would like real joystick and cartridge ports, a built-in POKEY emulation (for "Commando" and "Ballblazer") and an additional SD slot (Harmony cart style). And PAL/NTSC switching would be very nice to have due to the vast number of titles exclusive to each TV format.

 

And no RF TV out, please!

Edited February 20, 2013 by Thorsten Günther

[Andromeda Stardust]

I don't see how scaling from 240p to 480p would prevent interlacing artifacts since there is no interlacing to begin with. I also see problems with flickering sprites and scanline issues on my tv, as if the signal is interpreted as a interlaced signal. A built-in scaler should not have this.

Properly formatted interlaced NTSC video alternates between 262 and 263 scanlines. Nearly all 8-bit and 16-bit video game consoles output 262 scalines every frame (240p viewable). 262 + 263 scanlines = 480i. 262 + 262 scanlines = 240p. All HDTVs treat 240p video received over analog connections as 480i and process them as such. Therefore, any game which uses 30hz sprite flicker will result in tiny horizontal bars on an LCD screen. It's annoying, but upscaling to 480p beforehand will correct this situation. That said, there is absolutely no reason to upscale any higher than 480p prior to inputting the signal to the TV. If done properly in conjunction with the graphics processor rather than post processing, each scanline can be processed twice in realtime, which will virtually eliminate the >16ms that would be wasted by waiting for the entire frame to finish rendering, storing it in a frame buffer, and then doing the upscale. Again, it is my own personal opinion, but 240p game consoles look much better when rendered with square pixels by duplicating each scanline. I was really annoyed when I downloaded Balloon Fight on my Wii-U and noticed that Nintendo is using a filter to upscale the graphics, making the pixels look fuzzy. Ugh, why, nintendo? The square pixels on the Wii VC looked much better in comparison.

And no RF TV out, please!

x2

 

In another couple of years, HDTV manufacturers are gonna start dropping NTSC analog tuners. I think they're already doing it in PAL territories. Ironically, the CRT TV in our house with the biggest and nicest screen is a 1993 woodgrain with RF only. My mom brought it home from a fellow teacher as it came from another classroom where it was likely rarely used. It's currently in the garage due to lack of space (and it's too big to fit in my computer desk where I have a smaller composite capable CRT) but this "woodgrain TV" has an awesome picture tube and I plan on using it in the future when my fiance and I get our own place. Question, will an off-the-shelf external RF modulator (purchased at Walmart in the late 90s, RCA brand) give a better picture compared to the internal RF modulator in the NES/SNES/Genisis?

Edited February 20, 2013 by stardust4ever

[2600Guru]

Make it handheld, that's what we need.

[karokoenig]

Make it handheld, that's what we need.

 

Now, THAT's an idea. An Atari 2600 Nomad.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I agree. A little bitty with a digital thumstick (like a D-pad with an extension), LCD screen. Also add a couple pots for paddle control, and joystick inputs for Player 1 & 2.

[+bfstats]

I agree it should definitely be an upgrade to the original hardware but with the same footprint. I've enjoyed reading all the excellent and well-informed suggestions about how to make it better while still being backward-compatible so it can play EVERY cart manufactured for it. Emulation is NOT the way to go, in my opinion, and even built-in Harmony may have issues, though the option of upgrading firmware could make that option more viable.

 

But the deal-maker for me (and I haven't seen this suggested here yet) would be a "universal controller interface". Presuming it would be impractical to fashion a single controller that would incorporate joystick, paddle, driving, track ball, keyboard, kids, track 'n' field, light gun, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum, how 'bout a device that has inputs for all known controllers but only two outputs for connection to the console itself?! It would have to have a selector switch to tell the console which controllers are actually "attached". I can't picture how this could be incorporated into the console unless it was covered with ports, so a switchable intermediary device would be necessary.

 

Anyway, this is a feature my "dream 2600" would have. If this project did NOT have it, I wouldn't be discouraged from contributing, but I'd certainly be willing to pay more just to avoid having to swap out controllers.

 

Oh, and as for the cost, I paid $130 for my original 6-switch at Kay-Bee Toys back in the day. We pay almost that much for a single vaporware release these days, so I would have NO problem paying at least that much for a "modernized" (and sensible) console today.

[+Random Terrain]

But the deal-maker for me (and I haven't seen this suggested here yet) would be a "universal controller interface". Presuming it would be impractical to fashion a single controller that would incorporate joystick, paddle, driving, track ball, keyboard, kids, track 'n' field, light gun, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum, how 'bout a device that has inputs for all known controllers but only two outputs for connection to the console itself?! It would have to have a selector switch to tell the console which controllers are actually "attached". I can't picture how this could be incorporated into the console unless it was covered with ports, so a switchable intermediary device would be necessary.

 

It's been kind of mentioned in this thread and in 2009:

 

www.atariage.com/forums/topic/208944-would-you-support-a-crowd-funded-brand-new-atari-2600-console/#entry2697968

 

I bought one of those and the unreplaceable sound chip died not too long after I got it. Over 150 bucks down the drain:

 

www.atariage.com/forums/topic/115922-ordered-an-atari-2600-today-with-s-video-modification-got-it/

 

I'd like a new Atari 2600 clone of some kind, even if it's just the Stellacon. Hopefully it will be easier to fix if anything goes wrong with it and it might have goodies that the old Atari 2600 doesn't have such as a pause button, different ways to hook it up to old TVs and new HD TVs, and maybe more controller jacks so we can have joysticks and paddles plugged at the same time:

 

I'd love this new Atari 2600 clone to have more controller jacks (at least 4). You could have two joysticks and two sets of paddles plugged in at the same time. It would probably have some kind of switch that users would flip to tell the Atari 2600 clone which jacks to use. No more plugging and unplugging controller cables! Just pop in a game, flip the controller switch to the correct setting, turn on the Atari 2600 clone and start playing.

[+bfstats]

It's been kind of mentioned in this thread...

 

Ah, thanks. Missed that. However, my suggestion is somewhat more comprehensive, if not more daunting to build and sell profitably.

[+Gemintronic]

Why is this topic still active? No one here has the drive and expertise to make a new 2600. A cheap PC with Stella option has been poo poo'ed because of emulation. My idea of combining an off the shelf Raspberry Pi with an off the shelf Retrode got no response.

 

Is the point just to sit and spin whilst our original hardware rots?

[lapetino]

Why is this topic still active? No one here has the drive and expertise to make a new 2600.

 

Curt could.

[Andromeda Stardust]

But the deal-maker for me (and I haven't seen this suggested here yet) would be a "universal controller interface". Presuming it would be impractical to fashion a single controller that would incorporate joystick, paddle, driving, track ball, keyboard, kids, track 'n' field, light gun, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum, how 'bout a device that has inputs for all known controllers but only two outputs for connection to the console itself?! It would have to have a selector switch to tell the console which controllers are actually "attached". I can't picture how this could be incorporated into the console unless it was covered with ports, so a switchable intermediary device would be necessary.

Sure, the analog Paddle pins share different data lines than the digital joystick, so you could easily incorporate paddle controls into a VCS joystick controller, but why would you want to? FYI, it's also electically possible to connect controller 2 joypad and a zapper to the NES at the same time (like the Paddle/joystick, they share different input lines) but no games exist that would utilize both sets of inputs at the same time, so again, unless you're building a custom arcade style enclosure with everything permanently wired, it's much more convenient to just plug in the desired controller directly into the 9-pin port on the VCS or player 2 on the NES. The vast majority of games will work out of the box with either paddles or joysticks, so a pair of paddles and a pair of joysticks should be included. It should be possible to make the bundled joysticks slightly higher build quality than the CX-40s which suck IMO. Optionally, the VCS clone could come with a Joypad like most clones do. A good joypad is cheaper and more responsive to produce than a joystick. Also, for modern gamers, the joypad is more familiar than the joystick. The other accessory controllers, driving controller, lightgun, and numeric pad, were only each supported by a very small handful of titles, probably those games could be counted on a single hand. Out of those, only the VCS driving controller is still commonly obtainable. A custom adapter could probably be wired to interface with the NES Zapper for the one or two Atari games that actually support a lightgun.

 

Another great idea for a VCS clone is to make it with built in games such as those pirate Superjoy NES clones have built in games plus a cartridge port. But instead of violating copyright, there's enough excellent homebrew games here in the AtariAge web store, that granted permission of the game authors, a selection of these titles could be included built into the clone at no addional cost. The hardware could use a stripped down version of the Harmony/melody hardware with a permanent ROM to load games from instead of a removable flash card. A brochure could be included for people to purchase a Harmony cart or additional Homebrews from the AtariAge store could be included with the product, as well as tips for finding original VCS games. When you power on the VCS clone with no cart inserted, a menu appears which allows you to select a homebrew title to load. I think 12 good homebrews built in with a cartridge port for vintage games, complete with an included pair of VCS gamepads and paddles, would make a wonderful little VCS clone to get people exited about Atari. No need to worry about getting clearance or permission to prevent copyright violations, and at first, the clone could be marketed by AtariAge, then in the future other retro game stores and shops could stock them.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[+batari]

 

 

Curt could.

sure, because he has. But plenty of others here could as well. The idea is not that far-fetched.

 

I have an idea to compromise between full hardware and emulation. That is, make the various chips. (6507, TIA, RIOT) available as tiny daughtetboards with pins, used in old consoles if needed but also in a new console. The daughtetboards would have tiny microcontrollers that emulate the chip function at the hardware level. It would not be like regular emulation as it would communicate just like "real" hardware would.

 

The 6507 and RIOT would be pretty easy. The TIA would be the hard one.

[Impaler_26]

I would not support it. Everybody who wants to play 2600 games can pick up a real 2600 with a bunch of games for just a few bucks. So IMO another 2600 clone is absolutely pointless.

[gorfcadet]

I would not support it. Everybody who wants to play 2600 games can pick up a real 2600 with a bunch of games for just a few bucks. So IMO another 2600 clone is absolutely pointless.

 

It isn't pointless if you can't or won't mod original hardware, but want it to connect well to modern tvs. I have an original NES, but I use my clone to save wear and tear on the original. I am a gamer/collector; that puts my urge to play at odds with my urge to preserve.

 

For the average person who just wants to relive their childhood a little you have to understand that many people will stop trying to get it to work when they realise the little forks on the rf switcher have nowhere to connect on a modern tv. We aren't most people. Most people don't go in Radio Shack or know what to look for or ask for. Most people can't set up their cable/satellite box without professional help. For them and for convenience there is a market for clone hardware with currently supported outputs. Would it fly off the shelves at Wal Mart? I dunno. Would it sell at game stores and ebay? Oh yeah it would.

 

Not trying to be argumentative; just trying to show the other side. Also, when it come to new product, nay sayers don't matter. All that mattere are the people who do want it. I won't buy Taylor Swift's music, but that hasn't stopped her from being successful. Almost half the country has disliked America's last two presidents and they still got office.

[+Gemintronic]

I would not support it. Everybody who wants to play 2600 games can pick up a real 2600 with a bunch of games for just a few bucks. So IMO another 2600 clone is absolutely pointless.

 

Things get rarer, more expensive and breakable. Also, no new production on VCS means a continually dwindling amount of working machines.

 

What about those Chinese Flashback pirates? Find one and make them put back whatever makes it incompatible with batariBASIC games. Put a cart slot on it. Put it on full production. Done.

[Impaler_26]

For the average person who just wants to relive their childhood a little you have to understand that many people will stop trying to get it to work when they realise the little forks on the rf switcher have nowhere to connect on a modern tv.

 

Sure but wouldn't emulation be good enough for those people? It's easy enough to download and install Stella and grab a few roms from the web.