Retron 4 (console for snes\nes\genny etc)

[Andromeda Stardust]

Hyperkin removed their replies to my FB post. I wonder if they're going to prepare an official response.

Do you have a copy of the response Hyperkin removed, that you would like to share?

[goldenegg]

I already mentioned their responses. I didn't take screenshot if that's what you're asking for.

[dashv]

For when you don't have the cartridge? ;)Plus, I find with multicarts that even though I'm often just playing what I already have in cartridge form, the convenience itself is appealing. There's something to be said for not always having to switch out cartridges even on a cartridge based console.I'd prefer the best of both worlds if it were up to me. Both options have their place, it's not an either-or situation.

Yeah. I enjoyed the hell out of the cartridge version of games like Super Metroid and Final Fantasy 1 for the GBA.

 

That save battery combined with the Retron 5's copy to/from cart was great.

 

I could use my GBA or Retro Duo Portable v2 to keep playing when on the go.

 

Play on the Retron 5 in HD with the added benefit of save states and go back to portable at will.

 

It was very liberating.

 

I beat both games in about a week each. Which is amazing considering I haven't picked up a game cold and beat it start to finish for several years. I just don't typically have the time at home and once home from my job reading log files my eyes are too shot for a small screen.

 

Rom only emus are awesome but moving saves around from PC to PSP to Xbox is a huge pain in the ass.

Edited September 13, 2014 by dashv

[Satoshi Matrix]

Hey all.

 

I haven't been too active here lately, most of my posts have been over at DP.

 

Anyway,

 

The first part of my retron5 coverage is now up, with a look at the controller as part of my Controller Chronicles web series.

 

Once again my aim is to be as through as possible and to include info you won't find elsewhere.

I'd be interested to hear feedback from other Retron5 owners.

[Andromeda Stardust]

So you finally got an R5...

 

What are your thoughts on the fact now that the R5 has been hacked, it has been demonstrated that Hyperkin stole the emulator source code from various sources?

[Satoshi Matrix]

That hacked Retron5 stuff is cool, but its way too clunky. As a proof of concept its fun, but I still believe that the Retron5 running roms directly off an SD card defeats the whole purpose of the Retron5 being a cartridge based console. RetroArch is a mess on its own. it running on the Retron5 through exploits or whatever is enough to give me a headache.

For the time being I simply want Hyperkin to fix the existing issues and add more options like overclocking. PC Engine and PS1 support through rom emulation do not interest me on the Retron5 and don't belong on it. Proof of concept, but if you are serious about that stuff, buy an Ouya. The Ouya does it without you needing to run a complex web of exploits. I bought a Retron5 to play carts, not rom files loaded on an SD card. It's a pointless proof of concept thing.

 

As for Hyperkin apparently having "stolen" open source emulation code from the total mess that is retroarch, it isn't even worth discussing.

If they're using code based on other emulators
If they're using code they wrote from scratch

Who frippin' cares!? The Retron5 experience is at least 50% with the hardware, with the UI, with the controller, etc. The basis of the emulation should not be important to anyone except for the creators. If what they claim is true then THEY should take it up with hyperkin. The rest of us should pay this issue absolutely no mind at all. It bloody shouldn't matter. The Retron5 UI is its own identity.

 

This is such a laughable non-issue I'm surprised you would even ask.

[Zap!]

 

As for Hyperkin apparently having "stolen" open source emulation code from the total mess that is retroarch, it isn't even worth discussing.

If they're using code based on other emulators

If they're using code they wrote from scratch

 

Who frippin' cares!? The Retron5 experience is at least 50% with the hardware, with the UI, with the controller, etc. The basis of the emulation should not be important to anyone except for the creators. If what they claim is true then THEY should take it up with hyperkin. The rest of us should pay this issue absolutely no mind at all. It bloody shouldn't matter. The Retron5 UI is its own identity.

 

This is such a laughable non-issue I'm surprised you would even ask.

 

Agreed 100%. Said the same thing here a few posts back. They didn't rip me off, so I'm not getting involved.

[+FujiSkunk]

As for Hyperkin apparently having "stolen" open source emulation code from the total mess that is retroarch, it isn't even worth discussing.

If they're using code based on other emulators

If they're using code they wrote from scratch

 

Who frippin' cares!? The Retron5 experience is at least 50% with the hardware, with the UI, with the controller, etc. The basis of the emulation should not be important to anyone except for the creators. If what they claim is true then THEY should take it up with hyperkin. The rest of us should pay this issue absolutely no mind at all. It bloody shouldn't matter. The Retron5 UI is its own identity.

 

This is such a laughable non-issue I'm surprised you would even ask.

 

I disagree, and I believe the topic is very much worth discussing. The "non-Tivoization" clause of version 3 of the GNU Public License, which is the only public license RetroArch is released under, is a particular factor here. If Hyperkin has indeed "borrowed" code from the RetroArch project -- and the evidence is pretty convincing that they have -- then Hyperkin is in legal trouble, which could affect them and everyone who has bought a Retron 5. For complete compliance, Hyperkin would either have to negotiate for a separate license for the RetroArch code -- and that's iffy given how much respect Hyperkin has paid the RetroArch project so far -- or they would have to grant the ability to hack the system's software in any way... such as adding the means to dump cartridges to ROM images on an SD card. That would get the attention of Nintendo and the other big wigs, which in turn could make life very difficult for Hyperkin, and limit their ability to do things like "fix the existing issues and add more options like overclocking."

 

In short, it appears Hyperkin didn't think their cunning plan all the way through, and that may affect the things you care about.

[Zap!]

 

 

If Hyperkin has indeed "borrowed" code from the RetroArch project -- and the evidence is pretty convincing that they have -- then Hyperkin is in legal trouble, which could affect them and everyone who has bought a Retron 5.

How would it affect those of us who already own the system? The only thing I can think of is maybe no more support via updates, which isn't all that big of a deal. It's not like Amazon will come knocking on our doors and take our systems away.

[Bill Loguidice]

There has been this bizarre vendetta against Hyperkin since the RetroN 5 (nee 4) was announced. If there is indeed legal grounds here, they should be played out, otherwise it's just unsubstantiated speculation, no matter how compelling. Again, the claims are fairly egregious, so we should let the legal process - if there is any - play out. If not, then Hyperkin should be left the heck alone for a change, even if they somehow committed a cardinal "sin" of delaying their product and having to raise their initial target price (of course ignoring that pre-order pricing was still honored). They delivered a good product and our community should support it. If they are legitimately (meaning due legal process) at fault, then that's a different story. Until then, let's not jump to any unreasonable witch hunts here.

[Flojomojo]

I agree with Bill. I don't know of any legal precedent for GNU "violations" in the United States, where this would need to happen. Libretro's got a hate-on vendetta with everyone (Google, Apple, Hyperkin, other emulator authors) but ranting about it on a blog is not the same thing as a legal remedy. Nor is it sufficient to point out that Stallman stated "Tivo-ization is not permitted." I think Hyperkin is in a pretty safe situation.

[+Gemintronic]

Maybe the BusyBox situation qualifies?

http://www.networkworld.com/article/2231532/opensource-subnet/gpl-has-some-bite-behind-it.html

[Flojomojo]

Sure, but someone would have to litigate it. Libretro (RetroArch) doesn't have any money, and that's unlikely to change.

 

From http://www.libretro.com/index.php/mission/

 

 

• Monetary donations will not be accepted.
  • The ONLY exception to this rule is gifts in the form of hardware needed for the project. These are at least objectively valid and non-corruptible ways of helping the project since it is hardware we need for testing and porting purposes. If you are one such general soul who feels like helping out in this regard, contact us at libretro@gmail.com.

They put all their software on Github, they're sharing everything, which is cool. I admire their ideals, and I like what they've done on Android (despite bashing the platform the whole time), but it's difficult to see how this gets any bigger than words on a screen.

[Austin]

Rather than read through the last few pages of posts, has anyone tried hacking a Retron5? I don't have many cartridges these days (I use flash carts primarily) and so the hacking option has really piqued my interest. Is the performance basically the same as before, or are there performance setbacks with hacking it and playing ROMs from a SD card?

[+FujiSkunk]

How would it affect those of us who already own the system? The only thing I can think of is maybe no more support via updates, which isn't all that big of a deal. It's not like Amazon will come knocking on our doors and take our systems away.

 

Yes, that is true. You got yours. The post I responded to said he would like to see more updates and bug fixes, so that is obviously something he cares about. Using code outside of the permission granted by that code's license could and should affect that, and therefore I believe it is something people should be concerned with. If a company's business practices interfere with their ability to keep the promises they have made to their customers, they need to change those practices.

 

There has been this bizarre vendetta against Hyperkin since the RetroN 5 (nee 4) was announced. If there is indeed legal grounds here, they should be played out, otherwise it's just unsubstantiated speculation, no matter how compelling. Again, the claims are fairly egregious, so we should let the legal process - if there is any - play out. If not, then Hyperkin should be left the heck alone for a change, even if they somehow committed a cardinal "sin" of delaying their product and having to raise their initial target price (of course ignoring that pre-order pricing was still honored). They delivered a good product and our community should support it. If they are legitimately (meaning due legal process) at fault, then that's a different story. Until then, let's not jump to any unreasonable witch hunts here.

 

Speaking for myself, my opinion of the current situation is completely independent of the initial delays and the price jump. And for full disclosure, I don't own a Retron 5. I do own a Retron 3, and I've been happy with it, so I have no desire to participate in a "bizarre vendetta" against Hyperkin. I'm even still interested in buying a Retron 5. However, when I look at the evidence the RetroArch team has presented, and I pair it with my understanding of code licenses like the GPL, I cannot in good conscience offer my support, either in dollars or in recommendations. If Hyperkin fixes this, or proves there is nothing to fix, then I will reconsider my position.

 

Of course I encourage everyone else to do what I have done: look at the evidence presented and decide for yourself.

[cimerians]

It's a witch hunt IMO.

 

I got my system from Amazon because I pre-ordered it and Amazon delivered. Never had a problem with anything. (Yes they seem to be on the douchebaggy side but I dont have a problem).

 

Since then I've liked it for what it is....I also fall into the camp that really doesn't care if they stole emulator code. I know its a big bad thing among some developers (although if it was me I would be flattered)...its the selling part and them making money with code within it that's a question. As a consumer I dont care and as even as a dev on an emulator I wouldnt care but as others have mentioned a salute or some recognition would be nice, but thats just me.

 

Code theft has been happening since the 90's and before then for ages. Some places used to charge money to buy their emulator (Seattle Labs and C64S comes to mind). From a consumer's standpoint it doesn't matter one bit and Nintendo would definitely not look into something like this the way I see it...not at all. There's far more serious "threats" they battle.

[godslabrat]

As a fan of this hobby, who occasionally uses emulators, I'm rather upset by the idea that hyperkin "borrowed" their code. All through the pre-release, Hyperkin said over and over that they wouldn't allow ROM play because they wanted to avoid even the POTENTIAL to be seen as supporting piracy. They wanted to err on the side of extreme caution so as to avoid the wrath of Nintendo and Sega.

 

Then they turn right around and steal emulator code. So, they'll be extra careful around multimillion dollar companies, but as for the small-time hobbyist without a lot of cash... fuck 'em! They're basically admitting that they'll screw over whoever they want as long as they can get away with it, and the only difference is, with Nintendo and Sega, they didn't think they could get away with it.

 

This is all conditional on these allegations being true... but if they are, I'll lose a lot of respect for Hyperkin.

[Gregory DG]

Haven't been following the "Hyperkin using emulator code" thing too much. Did they "steal" code or are they just using some open-source stuff?

[+remowilliams]

Haven't been following the "Hyperkin using emulator code" thing too much. Did they "steal" code or are they just using some open-source stuff?

 

'open source' doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with the code (including selling it in a walled off proprietary system) and violate the license it was released under. It appears at this point that they did just that.

[Andromeda Stardust]

The fact the software is open source is moot. If the license of said software dictates that you cannot exploit it for commercial gain, and I think at this point there is strong evidence that Hyperkin exploited the code for commercial gain, well that is still piracy/stealing.

 

And if this Hyperkin case or similar cases like it do go to court, it could have serious implications in the future for any project that utilizes an open source licensing agreement.

 

And the fact that the developers of RetroArch may not have the capitol to pursue a lawsuit does not necessarily mean that Hyperkin cannot be taken to court over this. Many Lawyers work on commission, taking no upfront fees and instead getting paid based on a percentage of the settlement. If a lawyer feels that RetroArch has a strong case against Hyperkin, he/she may still take it.

[Austin]

So... how 'bout that hacking/roms on an SD card thing?

[jferio]

We're not losing sleep over it over here... but Hyperkin had better be prepared to release all the source code (my understanding of the GPL3 legal "design" is that they'd have to basically do a clean room redesign of the front end to avoid releasing the source code if they started with RetroArch), as well as update to replace two important emulators inside it (the guy behind RetroArch has made it rather clear that, because they didn't ask in the first place, he won't grant a license exemption for SNES9x NEXT), and to remove any locked patching mechanism (basically, allow you to load your own firmware choice). It is disappointing that they seem to have been forced to do something only because it's become public that they've done this thing.

 

Will I buy another one to supplement/replace the one we have here? Probably not. Will I get rid of the one we have? Pretty much keeping it, it's already been purchased, water under the bridge. Plus, overall it's still an excellent meld of hardware support and emulation, especially now that we can load ROM patch files and even Nintendo would have a hard time telling us we're doing it wrong in the legal sense.

 

Also, this, plus the NeoGeoX having a similar issue, should be fair warning to be aware that a great commercial emulation system, particularly if made by a third party, may be coming with a less than clean boardroom pedigree. We'll probably hold off on such devices in the future.

 

I'm pretty sure that there are some out there in the "emulation is free, you should never pay money for it ever ever ever" camp that are gleefully jumping up and down with this "proof" that they're right.

[cimerians]

Well if they don't at the very least acknowledge it then I can see the label as "official douchebags" be stamped on their forehead.

 

I still dont give a crap about all this though. I'm enjoying the douchebag system.

[Austin]

I'll be happy to buy a douchebag box that plays roms off a SD card and still uses original controllers.

[dashv]

For those interested. Hyperkin has admitted to using the libraries and released the source code for the components they've used on their website:

 

http://retron5.in/node/9

 

They have also invited the authors to contact them directly to work out any infringement issues that remain.

 

Doesn't directly address the tivo-ization stuff. But at least on the surface they appear to be trying to acknowledge the concerned parties and offer a path for resolution.

 

I agree with what many have said here. Some folks have been hating on Hyperkin and the Retron 5 like it's their job ever since word broke last year that the system might employ emulation.

 

The fact is as of Sept 2014 it's the best clone system money can buy.

 

Nearly every software beef I had with the thing has been resolved in recent firmware releases. Every game in my collection plays correctly except for 1 (Larry Boy and the Bad Apple for GBA doesn't work due to an emulation bug). The just released 2.0 firmware is now them showing off features they never even advertised like ips patching and user configurable turbo button mappings.

Edited September 25, 2014 by dashv