Retron 4 (console for snes\nes\genny etc)

[+Gemintronic]

IGN just put up a video of a different multisystem that does most of this, but with composite and svid outs only. I wonder how it looks on a modern tv. Svid would be worthless to most of us anymore. Most flatpanels at my local Sears had a shared component/composite jack and multiple hdmis. None had svideo. That really makes me sad.

 

What's the name of this multisystem? I can't find the video on IGN. This also reminded me how much I hate web sites that autoplay to the next video.. sigh.

[gorfcadet]

It was the Retro Trio by Retrobit. They also sell some gba adapter that works through a snes.

Still holding out for some upscaler solution. Retrousb is working in a hdmi nes, but that doesn't help my Atari, Genesis, Turbo etc. I may have to plunk down for an upscaler eventually. They are soooo expensive though!

[Reaperman]

Why would someone with a projector care about an HDMI input? Modern projectors have HDMI in, even the cheap ones. HDMI is the best possible output these days to support the widest range of modern displays. It's also easy to adapt for someone who would inexplicably need it adapted.

 

You're concerned about controller latency? Plug in one of the original wired controllers.

 

And again, who cares HOW they do it if the result is it plays roughly 99% of the cartridges for these platforms with 99% accuracy, plus supports flash carts. I also don't see on what planet a multi-cartridge, multi-controller input console selling for $99 is too much money. For purists, it also doesn't suddenly make the original consoles stop working. Criticisms like these are why the retro community can't have nice things. There are a lot of curmudgeons who like to nitpick. A lot.

 

Many projectors have HDMI in, few have speakers. I do have some extra hardware to split out an audio signal, but it's still a market that can't use such a game system without extra hardware. This has not been an issue until hdmi-only gaming hardware started showing up about a year ago (with OUYA).

 

Plugging in controllers will not totally fix my concerns about controller latency. Setting aside whatever extra hardware the controllers might be riding on, software emulation, by its nature, has a lot to do in a very short time--and has a history of not getting it all done without a frame (or a few) of delay. (unrelated example) Having a built-in scaler does possibly remove some concern about latency in lesser tv-scalers, however.

 

I'm the half of the 'good enough' crowd that doesn't care about minor audio/video issues as long as it plays correctly, so I'm for 8/16-bit clones. Again however, when this system releases, if latency is measured and found not to be a factor, I will switch myself over from being an emu-hater. I firmly believe that it's only a matter of time before software emulation really does become my way to go. When software emulation does start to meet my standards, I'd probably rather dump the carts, though. I enjoy collecting games, but I don't so much enjoy cleaning them or sorting through them.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Reaperman

[goldenegg]

Software emulation does not automatically equate to input lag. Such lag is only present if the emulator is not properly optimized. Emulators for all the systems emulated by the Retron 5 have passed that hump a long time ago.

 

The input lag that remains is usually caused by USB controllers which don't poll fast enough or too few resources on the system running the emulation. Hopefully the polling rate for the Retron 5 controller ports will be high, as I'll bet they're connected internally via USB.

[Reaperman]

Software emulation does not automatically equate to input lag. Such lag is only present if the emulator is not properly optimized. Emulators for all the systems emulated by the Retron 5 have passed that hump a long time ago.

 

The input lag that remains is usually caused by USB controllers which don't poll fast enough or too few resources on the system running the emulation. Hopefully the polling rate for the Retron 5 controller ports will be high, as I'll bet they're connected internally via USB.

It's possible. I haven't really sat down with emulators since xbox. I've heard software emulation described as "perfect" since the 90's (and xbox was no exception), so I've become a bit hesitant to believe it. At this point, I think I'd really have to have it demonstrated to me with high speed video. It's also quite possible that the USB controllers that xbox used were a part of my poor experience with it.

 

Looking for a more recent example of emulator lag, it's mentioned in the punch-out wikipedia article for wii's vc release. If there's ever been a game to showcase lag, NES punch-out has to be that game.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Reaperman

[+Gemintronic]

It was the Retro Trio by Retrobit. They also sell some gba adapter that works through a snes.

Still holding out for some upscaler solution. Retrousb is working in a hdmi nes, but that doesn't help my Atari, Genesis, Turbo etc. I may have to plunk down for an upscaler eventually. They are soooo expensive though!

 

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, this looks like the Retron 3 without poor/uselss infrared joysticks. Don't be fooled by the GBA adapter: it's its own beast. You even need to plug in SEPARATE RCA cables just for the adapter. LAME. The Super Gameboy established a certain set of standards these recent GBA/NES/Genesis adapters are failing at.

[Atariboy]

If I'm not mistaken, you don't need the video cables when using the adapter with the Super Retro Trio itself. It's only for when using it on something like a genuine SuperNes.

 

This lazy/cheap way out certainly killed any allure it might've had for me. If it had worked like the Super Game Boy or was a standalone system itself, I would've been curious.

 

Looking for a more recent example of emulator lag, it's mentioned in the punch-out wikipedia article for wii's vc release. If there's ever been a game to showcase lag, NES punch-out has to be that game.

It states...

 

During that release, reports have surfaced stating that when the game is played in progressive scan, the Virtual Console version of Punch-Out!! suffers from a lag in controls, which significantly raises the difficulty level compared to other versions of it.

If accurate and it only happens when the Wii is set to 480p, that means that the upscaling is causing the issue if it's not present when the Wii is set to 480i and is sending out the original 240p output for NES titles. So not really a emulation culprit since it's happening down the line when the video signal is processed after the fact before being output to your tv.

 

It would be like running your NES through a XRGB scaler which sends a signal to your HDTV that matches its native resolution and doesn't have any processing done to it by the tv's scaler (Which ideally should be what happens when you send something like a 720p signal to a HDTV with a native resolution of 720p and so on). It's not really correct to blame your NES since it's the external scaler that's creating input lag rather than the console itself.

 

If it was something inherently wrong with the way it emulates NES titles, it would be present all the time. Instead, it sounds like the upscaling algorithm is the problem with Punch Out on the Wii Virtual Console if it's so inefficient as to be causing noticeable issues.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Atariboy

[Gregory DG]

I think the main difference between the Retron 3 and the Retron 5 is that the Retron 3 wasn't using an Android OS with an upgradable emulator. It was more of a SNES-Genesis-NES on a chip type deal. So if a game didn't work, tough luck, no upgrade was going to help you.

 

Also, no HDMI or bluetooth controllers or save-states or graphic filtering or CPU throttling for the Retron 3. So, I view the Retron 5 as a significant improvement over the 3.

[Atariboy]

I don't believe that we actually know that it's Android based. While a safe bet, the only person that keeps proclaiming that it's actually confirmed is a single member of Digital Press & AtariAge that has no inside track on the goings on with Hyperkin.

 

He told me it was announced here, but I haven't had any luck finding any mention of Android when listening to this extremely dull presentation.

 

Edited February 8, 2014 by Atariboy

[+Gemintronic]

There is a few scattered mentions of the console running Android:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/11/hands-on-with-hyperkins-retron-5-emulating-nine-classic-consol/?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=Feed_Classic&utm_campaign=Engadget

http://www.android-mix.com/2013/06/android-game-console-specs-retron.html

 

The mentions have seem to be stifled as of late. Probably to stall people who would make their own custom firmware to add features. Conversely, this also means no third party app/extension support.

[Atariboy]

Nothing official though, just people making logical assumptions that aren't necessarily fact.

[godslabrat]

For whatever reason, Hyperkin is trying REALLY REALLY hard to avoid saying they're using Android. The prevailing theory is that they're trying to prevent copycats, but I wonder if it's a little more calculated. Is it possible they've written so much of the OS themselves that it can't technically be called "Android"? Are they trying to skirt some licensing issues?

 

I don't think the reason is nefarious, please don't misunderstand me... but I don't think it's as simple as wanting to avoid copycats.

[Gregory DG]

My guess is - the fewer people know it's Android, the fewer people will dig around and try to hack it.

[godslabrat]

My guess is - the fewer people know it's Android, the fewer people will dig around and try to hack it.

 

Eh, maybe. But that only lasts until the thing is released. After that, all bets are off. And you can't hack it BEFORE it's released, so why worry about it?

[Andromeda Stardust]

I just wish more new tvs supported the native resolutions of the classic systems. My new Toshiba just said resolution not supported when I hooked up my Genesis and Atari. Gave me a sad.

This is disheartening news. NES, SNES, and Genesis all output 240p 60.01Hz NTSC video. This means there are 262 scanlines every frame instead of interlaced video, which is 262+263 @59.94Hz (the slight timing difference in 240p is caused by the deleted scanline every other frame). Only 5th generation and up display true 480i output. Where most HDTVs totally nerf the picture is when you have 240p being displayed on a progessive display as interlaced 480i, causing the telltale venitian blinds effect whenever a sprite is flickered at 30Hz. The even/odd scanlines are determined by the scanline count so whichever field is displayed first is random when processing 240p signals. That said, I've never heard of an HDTV display outright refusing to display a "proper" 240p signal from a game console. I am aware that certain equipment have issues with Atari consoles (2600, 5200, 7800) but that is due to something in the Atari signal being off spec. My Hauppauge USB capture works flawlessly with NES, SNES, Genny but totally barfs on demodulated 2600 signal (mostly grayscale with tiny NTSC "jailbars" from the color sync; looks like absolute garbage).

[Gregory DG]

Dug the NES out tonight. Had a hankering to play Super C...

 

It got me thinking about the Retron 5 when it comes out. Was wondering if this would be accepted by purists who want to play on real hardware?

 

Also, was thinking of getting an Everdrive too. Not sure if it would even work. But then how do purists feel about that? Even if played on a real NES?

 

Just some random thoughts. Hoping the Everdrive even works with the Retron 5 (or we get some kind of ROM support hacked in later.)

[Andromeda Stardust]

^^It won't work. Retron5 dumps the cartridge into RAM and uses a software emulator to play the ROM. Due to the variety of mappers on the NES, the Retron uses a checksum database to determine what mapper to use. Unfortunately, homebrews may not even work unless the creators submit their ROM to the Retron guys to have support added manually via firmware updates.

 

http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=114977

[StoneAgeGamer]

Think of RetroN5 as a Retrode + Ouya. Modern flash carts will most likely not work because of this. Flash carts rely on the hardware in the cart, which it will not have access to on the RetroN5. Me thinks I will have to put a very large disclaimer on my listings on the site because I keep getting people telling me they want to order R5 and use EverDrives.

Really if you want access to ROMs on a android device there are much cheaper options. In this case a flash cart would be almost pointless. You could buy Ouya and some USB adapters/controllers and get virtually the same result and save yourself a lot of money. Flash carts are more for getting some of the convenience of a emulator on original hardware, where the RetroN5 is an emulator that lets you use carts.

[Atariboy]

Obviously if someone is purely interested in the ability to load rom images, they're barking up the wrong tree.

 

But I don't think it's pointless for someone that has a nice multicart to want to pair it up with this. I know at least for me, my multicarts are supplements rather than devices that supplant my original cartridges. I suspect that's the case for many people that invest in them. So for a cartridge based clone system to support them, it's anything but a pointless feature.

 

For those that want this ability though, I just about guarantee that with a bit of patience, you will get your wish and without the need of multicarts. Hyperkin needs new hooks to keep selling revisions and opening up the ability to load roms is an obvious and easy step to take in the future.

 

And I think this stands a very good chance of being cracked open by the community if Hyperkin manages to pull off a successful product that is worth modders giving a bit of attention to. So even without Hyperkin's assistance, I still think it's a 50/50 chance still that it will end up with that ability unofficially.

 

And if they're smart, they won't make it any harder for them than necessary since it's not like Hyperkin has anything to lose like software sales. The more the Retron 5 is cracked wide open, the more sales Hyperkin will enjoy.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Atariboy

[+Gemintronic]

It could have way more added value if it could dump carts to SD and then have your game library consolidated on a machine designed to consolidate consoles.

 

No sense in being an emulator that can't take ROMs - or a hardware console that can't use hardware (flash carts, Super Gameboy, etc..)

[Bill Loguidice]

Until we get official word that it won't, I'm still assuming that multi- and flash-carts will work. It was my understanding that they were working to make sure that they would.

[StoneAgeGamer]

Until we get official word that it won't, I'm still assuming that multi- and flash-carts will work. It was my understanding that they were working to make sure that they would.

 

Well whenever I get my beta unit I will know, but because of NDA I am unsure if that's something I can disclose. However if the speculation is correct and they dump the cart's image then I don't see how it would be possible. The flash cart loads an OS which then accesses its internal hardware to read the SD card. At best what will happen is that the OS will get dumped to the R5, but without any access to the original flash cart after the dump there is no way for it to work and most likely the OS will just throw and error on the R5. My old salesman at Hyperkin is now their product manager and we still talk quite often because I give input on products and he asks my opinion on some products. You'd think if flash carts were any concern of their's he would have asked me about providing some. He never has.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Well whenever I get my beta unit I will know, but because of NDA I am unsure if that's something I can disclose. However if the speculation is correct and they dump the cart's image then I don't see how it would be possible. The flash cart loads an OS which then accesses its internal hardware to read the SD card. At best what will happen is that the OS will get dumped to the R5, but without any access to the original flash cart after the dump there is no way for it to work and most likely the OS will just throw and error on the R5. My old salesman at Hyperkin is now their product manager and we still talk quite often because I give input on products and he asks my opinion on some products. You'd think if flash carts were any concern of their's he would have asked me about providing some. He never has.

Flash carts are wel known not to work on clone hardware anyway. I am more concerned if homebrews and repros will work with this system. I have a nice collection of homebrews and repros in cartridge format, many of which are not available as ROM downloads, and save states would be an extremely handy feature to use with certain games. If the Retron does use a checksum database rather than heuristics to determine mapper hardware, then Retron5 will choke on most NES homebrew and repro carts. I'd imagine a lot of the more obscure or weird Famicom games would be problematic as well. SNES/Genesis are less of an issue I assume because most of those games do not use memory mappers. Common expansion chips such as DPS1 and FX don't really affect the dumping process (although SA-1 might be a problem), and most EMUs use simple heuristics to detect the expansion chips. Even if the Retron5 uses checksums to detect special chip games, it wouldn't be necessary for the vast majority of hacks, homebrews, or repros. GB/GBC/GBA I'm not quite sure about since I'm not familiar with the internal hardware.

 

I also plan on getting the Stone Age Master System adapter, whether for use on the Retron5 or the real Genesis.

 

Also I would like to add in the event the Retron5 gets hacked/unofficial firmware updates, it will likely make the ultimate cart dumping tool. I doubt Hyperkin would care about unofficial firmware since they have nothing to lose financially if people use their system to play pirated ROMs and such activity would only increase sales. In fact I'd be very surprised if the firmware is encrypted at all. Of course doing so will void the warranty and Hyperkin will offer no support, but who the heck cares! Hackers unite!

Edited February 17, 2014 by stardust4ever

[StoneAgeGamer]

Also I would like to add in the event the Retron5 gets hacked/unofficial firmware updates, it will likely make the ultimate cart dumping tool. I doubt Hyperkin would care about unofficial firmware since they have nothing to lose financially if people use their system to play pirated ROMs and such activity would only increase sales. In fact I'd be very surprised if the firmware is encrypted at all. Of course doing so will void the warranty and Hyperkin will offer no support, but who the heck cares! Hackers unite!

 

I agree and wouldn't be shocked if there is very little protection against it. I just don't think dumping ROMs and playing ROMs is something they want to advertise themselves, but if there a backdoor that voids warranty, well shucks! What could they do?

[Zap!]

So the Retron 5 was supposed to finally come out this month (April), but apparently it's been delayed again. Hyperkin's Facebook Page talked about another delay, but doesn't give a new release date as of today. I pre-ordered last month on Amazon, hope the system can come out soon.