Numen Hanging?

[flashjazzcat]

Wrapping up for the evening, but I thought I'd ask about a weird issue I'm having with a machine I'm working on. 800XL, Rev. A board, VBXE + Ultimate 1MB (v2). The kit was previously in a Rev. D motherboard, but I gave up on that one after it proved terminally unstable. So - VBXE and U1MB in a known-good Rev. A PAL board... wasn't working with SIDE 2 at first, so replaced LS08 - all good. No lock-ups, perfectly stable... except for one thing... the Numen demo hangs on a black screen after loading. No matter where it was loaded from (PBI, SIO). So I tried a couple of different CPUs and was eventually able to get Numen to run, but only with a SIDE 2 cart plugged in... otherwise it hangs as usual.

 

I'm assuming this is the old bus capacitance issue (VBXE and Ultimate 1MB appear to be working fine in themselves, no XRAM errors, VBXE Lamers demo runs perfectly)... but I'm curious as to what's special about Numen which makes it the only software which so far hangs this machine.

 

Thoughts appreciated... but maybe this is just one of those things about heavily upgraded machines.

[Marius]

Try replacing ANTIC in stead of CPU. Timing is very critical. I have had same issues with MyIDE ][ ... replacing MMU with GAL was the fix, but since you are working with Ultimate 1MB, you can not replace GAL. It's an ANTIC <> GAL thing... So perhaps swapping ANTIC helps.

[flashjazzcat]

I'm pretty much open to any suggestions now. Thanks Marius: I'll try few different Antics.

[Marius]

In that myide 2 problem the problem was the worst strange enough on ultimate 1 mb with the 'new' cpld firmware. The older (first) version gave really less issues.

 

There must be some timing trouble somewhere.

 

Tucker fixed the issue for myide 2 but the fact that the issue did occur as worst as possible with ultimate 1mb new batch and not with my first batch of u1mb is also a clue that there are differences between these two releases when it comes to timing.

 

On unmodified Atari 800xl I had this myide 2 issue too. Not on xe and not on 600xl.

 

On these pal 800xl's replacing the mmu with a GAL version did vanish this myide 2 issue completely; even without Tucker's firmware upgrade.

 

I guess there is big chance your atari has something equal going on....

[flashjazzcat]

...but the fact that the issue did occur as worst as possible with ultimate 1mb new batch and not with my first batch of u1mb is also a clue that there are differences between these two releases when it comes to timing.

 

Well, I'm assured by Lotharek himself that this is not the case, and that the new U1MB boards are identical to the originals, apart from the different PLCC chips (AMD at first, and now SST since I reported non-booting XLs with the AMD chips) and the new OS ROM/MMU adapters... so we must "go figure", it seems.

 

I guess there is big chance your atari has something equal going on....

 

Although I seem to be running low on PAL Antics (I gave too many away, it appears), I've tried a few different ones, and various combinations of Antic, CPU and LS08 give different results. In short, it's possible to make the machine run Numen with or without SIDE2 inserted, but not with the same combination of chips. Perhaps I can ask the machine's owner to put a different CPU in when he wants to use a SIDE cart. If I get the machine balanced enough to run Numen smoothly from SIO2SD, it will shortly afterwards exhibit stability problems when SIDE2 is later plugged in. It appears impossible to get the machine to a stage whereby it works predictably with and without SIDE connected. And this is the second motherboard in which I've installed the same upgrades...

Edited March 18, 2013 by flashjazzcat

[Marius]

@FJC

 

I was not talking about Lotharek U1MB!

 

Remember: Candle first released the U1MB without the SIDE PBI functionality and without the abilitiy of having more than one BASIC slot etc. It was a simple menu with less options. Those U1MB's do work better here in my Atari than the newer U1MB with the extended menu functionality.

 

I was not comparing with Lotharek U1MB... in fact that is the Third batch of U1MB...

 

Candle batch 1: simple menu, no different basic/8k slots (some issues that looked like my MMU related issues*))

Candle batch 2: more functionality (some issues that looked like my MMU related issues*)

 

*) this is in MY atari's 800XL PAL. I am not picking on U1MB, and I'm not saying that there is something wrong with them; only that I had issues with this batch, that did not occur with the first batch. I don't know what the reason is.

[flashjazzcat]

OK - I understand. Well - obviously PBI functionality adds a whole separate set of potential issues, since it relies on a SIDE cart being plugged in.

 

I'm not technical enough to point the finger confidently at any one particular component - I can simply go by what I'm seeing. Maybe 800XLs generally can't handle this particular group of upgrades together.

 

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with an 800XL equipped with an U1MB, VBXE, and SIDE2 and which runs Numen without issue, with and without the SIDE2 cart fitted, loaded both from PBI and via SIO. Upgrade jobs along similar lines have gone very smoothly in the past, but this one is turning into a complete nightmare, two motherboards into it. I'm rather lost for an explanation or for some way to proceed, so I have to start looking at what's different in terms of upgrades from the last time I built a similar machine.

[flashjazzcat]

Out of interest I replaced the Lotharek U1MB with a Candle U1MB (while the machine was in the works-with-SIDE2-but-not-Numen configuration), and Numen now runs. The only obvious difference between the two U1MB boards is that Candle's has an Amic PLCC while Lotharek's has an SST.

 

Next - I took the Amic PLCC from Candle's board and placed it in the Lotharek U1MB. Result - Numen won't run.

 

So - something else is different...

Edited March 18, 2013 by flashjazzcat

[Mclaneinc]

You do like a challenge Jon

[flashjazzcat]

You do like a challenge Jon

 

Well, not really after four weeks or so on the same machine. I don't think I'll be repeating the feat.

[flashjazzcat]

Yay! Closure at last... problem turned out to be related to the stereo Pokey board. Apparent dry joint on SMD chip. Reflowed, and Numen now runs every time. Wondering if the demo was hanging on stereo detection code?

 

Anyway - no problem at all with Ultimate 1MB, as it turns out. It's just unfortunate that it took so many frustrating hours to positively identify the issue.

[+Stephen]

Wow - glad to see that project can be laid to rest.

[flashjazzcat]

Thanks Stephen. Computer was picked up first thing this morning. Huge sigh of relief.

[johey]

I too have this problem with my 130XE. I'm very new to the Atari platform, but I have installed Ultimate, Stereo and SIDE2. Now I'm trying to load Numen, which hangs after the loading progress bar. If enabling 1M RAM, it hangs on a purple screen with some vertical stripes, and if run with 320k the screen is pure black.

 

Will take a look at the solderings, but this is new hardware from Lotharek, and other things work with both stereo and mono, so I doubt it's the case.