MAKING BACKUPS OF ST GAMES TO FLOPPY HARDWARE THAT ACTUALLY WORKS?

[oky2000]

I need to start thinking about backing up the originals of my favourite games so was wondering if there was a hardware or software (or combination) product that I can search for on ebay etc to use to make backups of my disks onto brand new disks.

 

For example Gauntlet 1 is mega rare and expensive and once my originals fail that's it no more Gauntlet because I can only write back the .ST format data disk image but not the .STX image for the boot/program disk.

 

Any you could highly recommend?

[+DarkLord]

The Blitz cable/software combo is usually pretty good. You need 2 floppy drives for it

to work.

 

There are instructions online about how to make your own. Some people used the

cable that goes from the ST to the drive, and hacked it up for use.

 

http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/interfaces.php#if_blitz_cable

 

http://atari4ever.free.fr/hardware/zip/bturbo.zip

 

HTHs.

[Charlie_]

For example Gauntlet 1 is mega rare and expensive and once my originals fail that's it no more Gauntlet because I can only write back the .ST format data disk image but not the .STX image for the boot/program disk.

 

 

Take a look here: http://dbug.kicks-ass.net/klaz/Old_Games.html#Gauntlet

[oky2000]

Take a look here: http://dbug.kicks-as...s.html#Gauntlet

 

That's a good site but those are not original retail versions of the games so they're not going to solve the problem of failed original disks leaving me with some fancy boxes on the shelves

[oky2000]

The Blitz cable/software combo is usually pretty good. You need 2 floppy drives for it

to work.

 

There are instructions online about how to make your own. Some people used the

cable that goes from the ST to the drive, and hacked it up for use.

 

http://info-coach.fr...#if_blitz_cable

 

http://atari4ever.fr.../zip/bturbo.zip

 

HTHs.

 

I have precious few drive cables but 3 drives so I will have a look on ebay for one.

 

I have a Multiface 2 but I am guessing that's only good for dumping ram to disk like the old C64 reset carts etc. Is X-copy hardware any good?

[Charlie_]

That's a good site but those are not original retail versions of the games so they're not going to solve the problem of failed original disks leaving me with some fancy boxes on the shelves

 

They are better actually.

 

It is cool to have a collection of boxed games, but the patched games with trainers or hdd installable are the way to go.

I myself would like a boxed Gauntlet just for the shelf.

[Triads]

KryoFlux

[+DarkLord]

KryoFlux

 

Hmm. Can you use a Kryoflux drive to make copies of ST original games, then

take said backed up copies and play them on the ST hardware? Thanks.

[8bitguy1]

I was going to ask the same thing, I went to the website for kryoflux and it was not evident whether that's possible or not, though the video seems to show them doing exactly that.

[GadgetUK]

I think Kryoflux would work, it looks awesome and appears to be able to read all protected disks in entirety. I wouldnt mind one in future...

[oky2000]

They are better actually.

 

It is cool to have a collection of boxed games, but the patched games with trainers or hdd installable are the way to go.

I myself would like a boxed Gauntlet just for the shelf.

 

Yeah I do collect games with cheats and trainers, fixes on that site (and another) are great to have I agree. But if I wanted to write over an original to try and revive it then it's not really an option. Sometimes the disk is OK but the magnetic integrity of the recorded data needs a little helping hand 3 decades later

 

I will check out Kyroflux and see what it is cheers.

Edited March 21, 2013 by oky2000

[+rdemming]

The Blitz cable/software combo is usually pretty good. You need 2 floppy drives for it

to work.

 

The Blitz cable is very very very unreliable to make copies. I would advise NOT to use it. The Blitz cable makes an "analog" copy like you would do in the old days with cassette tapes.

It works by sending the data out of the first drive to data in of the second drive. That means that the copy is of lesser quality than the original just like tape copies. Thus a copy of a copy of a copy will get worse and worse.

 

And that is not the only thing. For the Blitz cable to work you need two drives that have exactly the same rotation speed. If they differ then the data rate on the copy is different than on the original which can cause problems as well.

I had two drives that worked perfectly with regular copy programs. But when they were used with the Blitz cable, even non protected 9 sector disk were written badly most of the time.

 

The best way is indeed Kryoflux. But a disadvantage is that for protected disks you need to send the stream files that are generated when reading the source disk must be converted to an IPF file before they can be written back to disk. Only the SPS can create IPS files because the conversion requires a good knowledge of how floppies work to set the right settings. And they want to be sure the IPS files are really a good and working copy of the disk. You send them the KryoFlux stream files and you will get a IPF file back when they have done the conversion and verified it.

 

However unprotected disks can be written back to a new disk directly as for unprotected disks.

 

Robert

[+DarkLord]

Odd. My experience with the Blitz cable was much different. I had 2 720k floppy drives,

both in good working order, and almost all the titles I threw at it worked. Admittedly,

some did require more than 1 attempt. Only a handful of titles I tried would not work,

as far as I can remember.

 

I would imagine that the older/less reliable your hardware is, the more failures you

would see...

 

EDIT: Just trying to be clear about the Kryoflux...so to back up copy protected games,

which most are, you generate a file that you have to send to the Kryoflux team, who

verifies it, then sends a different file back to you, that you can then write back to a

ST disk that the ST can use? Thanks.

[oky2000]

No the recorded signal will be the same strength, the second drive's controller will receive a digital 1/0 instruction and written by the head in the same identical way you would if using the second drive to save files from GEM. A tape backup board without an IC is doing what you describe, and in this case it may result in a slightly low amplitude analogue tone being written by the analogue tape once it has receive an analogue signal

 

The only difference is software companies purposefully put bad tracks on the disk and some of those tracks could only be written by more sophisticated disk controllers on machines used at the duplicators (ie something more like the Amiga drive control interface....which is why only Amigas can read their own format, not PC or ST but not true vice versa). This is most of the time why a disk can't be backed up, digital technology is mixed with analogue methods so the digital sample must be of very high accuracy to give the same result. It's not a loss of signal quality down the wires like tape copiers suffer.

[+rdemming]

Odd. My experience with the Blitz cable was much different. I had 2 720k floppy drives,

both in good working order, and almost all the titles I threw at it worked. Admittedly,

some did require more than 1 attempt. Only a handful of titles I tried would not work,

as far as I can remember.

 

If you have two drives that are the same timing wise you have a higher chance of a usable copy. So it indeed is very hardware dependent and you might need to retry a couple of times.

A Dutch computer magazine also used the Blitz cable to copy their PD disks. With one of my orders of about 10 PD disk about 8 of the disks was not readable on my three ST drives.

And I was not the only one that have bad experiences with the Blitz cable.

 

 

EDIT: Just trying to be clear about the Kryoflux...so to back up copy protected games,

which most are, you generate a file that you have to send to the Kryoflux team, who

verifies it, then sends a different file back to you, that you can then write back to a

ST disk that the ST can use? Thanks.

 

That is correct except you send it to SPS but AFAIK some of them are also the guys behind the KryoFlux.

I know there are already quite a few ST games converted to IPF but I don't know were they are available. SPS does not publish IPF files. The owner of the original decides if he wants to share the IPF file he got back from SPS.

 

 

No the recorded signal will be the same strength, the second drive's controller will receive a digital 1/0 instruction and written by the head in the same identical way you would if using the second drive to save files from GEM. A tape backup board without an IC is doing what you describe, and in this case it may result in a slightly low amplitude analogue tone being written by the analogue tape once it has receive an analogue signal

 

According to these descriptions from SPS and Ijor (from PASTI) the Blitz cable directly passes the drive head output signal of the source drive to the input of the destination drive head without any digital processing. The Blitz cable bypasses the floppy controller and the drive itself does no digital processing on the signal it receives (it does not boost a weak '1' signal to a full '1' level). Both SPS and Ijor say that a copy from a copy gets degraded.

 

Robert

[ParanoidLittleMan]

...

The best way is indeed Kryoflux. But a disadvantage is that for protected disks you need to send the stream files that are generated when reading the source disk must be converted to an IPF file before they can be written back to disk. Only the SPS can create IPS files because the conversion requires a good knowledge of how floppies work to set the right settings. And they want to be sure the IPS files are really a good and working copy of the disk. You send them the KryoFlux stream files and you will get a IPF file back when they have done the conversion and verified it.

However unprotected disks can be written back to a new disk directly as for unprotected disks.

Robert

 

I don't think so. IPF is still read-only, at least in case of Atari ST images. But, as I understood (and I don't have Kryoflux) you can write to floppies images you self made with Kryoflux, without need to send them (larger files, may be some 30MB for 1 floppy) . Of course, talking about copy-protected floppies.

IPF format is somekind of economic version, where tracks without protection are presented in short form, and therefore images are much shorter - usually shorter than Pasti (STX) images, where we have some plus space usage, to be sure that all protection data will be presented (related with fact that no people which currently verifies and compacts them).

[Triads]

If you can locate one, maybe a Happy Discovery Cart..

[+rdemming]

I don't think so. IPF is still read-only, at least in case of Atari ST images.

 

Seems you didn't follow the KryoFlux website for more than a year

The KryoFlux software even comes with an IPF file of Lethal Access (they got permission of the authors) that can be written back to disk with KryoFlux and be run on both an ST and Amiga.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTloSBG_A2A

 

 

But, as I understood (and I don't have Kryoflux) you can write to floppies images you self made with Kryoflux, without need to send them (larger files, may be some 30MB for 1 floppy) .

 

Yes, unprotected disks can indeed imaged to a standard disk image format (.img file which just hold the sector data. I think it is the same as an .st file) which can later be written back to disk by any program (including KryoFlux) that support .img files.

Unfortunately KryoFlux cannot create .pasti files for protected disks or write .pasti files. So for writing back protected images, IPF files are still the only option at the moment for protected Atari ST disks. Also the HcX floppy emulator (USB version) supports IPF so you don't actually need to write a new disk if you have a PC next to your Atari.

 

Robert

[+rdemming]

For starters here you can find an archive with 305 Atari ST .ipf files.

 

Robert

[ParanoidLittleMan]

OK. I did not follow their posts, but know that writing in emulators to IPF is still not supported - what is minor flaw.

However, point here is to make backups of own originals with copyprotection. It may be that you will wait too long for IPF (some complain that did not get IPFs after more than year). And still not possible to write own "stream files" - what is bigger flaw. It seems that they just don't want to support such way of copiing. They do preservation, collection of images, for SPS, but don't see that care much to motivate people to buy Kryoflux - at least it is with Atari originals.

So, after reading some threads, which are more informative than Kryo people writings, I would say that Kryoflux is not really good option at moment.

 

What are those originals what need to be copied ? There are other solutions instead perfect copy .

[+rdemming]

OK. I did not follow their posts, but know that writing in emulators to IPF is still not supported - what is minor flaw.

 

There is a good reason that you can't modify IPF files. IPF is intended as archive format of original disks. Thus you don't want to have IPF files that have modifications because then it is not an image of an original disk anymore.

But you can have write support by writing changes in an additional "diff" file. Then the IPF remains unchanged while changes are possible. I believe WinUAE (Amiga emulator) does use this method.

 

 

However, point here is to make backups of own originals with copyprotection. It may be that you will wait too long for IPF (some complain that did not get IPFs after more than year). And still not possible to write own "stream files" - what is bigger flaw. It seems that they just don't want to support such way of copiing. They do preservation, collection of images, for SPS, but don't see that care much to motivate people to buy Kryoflux - at least it is with Atari originals.

So, after reading some threads, which are more informative than Kryo people writings, I would say that Kryoflux is not really good option at moment.

 

I agree that having to wait for the SPS team to return you the IPF from the stream files is a big drawback. But it is their way to ensure there are no bad IPF file out there (AFAIK there are quite a few bad PASTI files out there?). If you want to run your copy right away (in an emulator) you could use PASTI. However as far as I know it is still not possible to write PASTI files back to disk. Steem SSE already has IPF support and for Hatari IPF support will be added in version 1.7. More info here.

And the HxC floppy emulator (USB version, the SD-card version does not have the power to emulate allprotections) is now able to use the raw Kryoflux stream files. So you don't have to wait for an IPF anymore if you use that for loading the copy on real hardware.

 

Robert

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Modifications are necessary (talking about run in emuls) by some games which run only from original, unprotected. Diff file is good solution - hopefuly will be one day for Atari IPFs - but it is on IPF team.

 

I tested IPF images for Steem SSE and know some things related: Steven Seagal fixed many problems, and what is available works pretty well. But we don't see IPF images with later Copylock (there is a lot of titles with) or track read based floppies (not so much, but at least 20 titles exist, like Vroom) .. Main problem is actually that IPF has no big perspective with SPS policy - I don't think that we will se more than 1000 titles ever. At least unless something changes.

HxC usage is best for people not going in hard disk gaming on Ataris, for sure, since floppy drives become problematic and unreliable. All depends on it's capabilities. And we have again write problem - USB version writes not at all on floppy images - including simplest ST ones.

All in all, as usual, by ST is always complicated and no 100% best solution .

Edited March 23, 2013 by ParanoidLittleMan

[TheAtarianGuy]

I was gonna ask a similar question. Can you put the original ST disks in a newer computer and copy the files directly from the original disks to back it up?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

I was gonna ask a similar question. Can you put the original ST disks in a newer computer and copy the files directly from the original disks to back it up?

 

If you want some success rate, need Kryoflux. Newer computers are not equipped with protected floppy copying HW, actually the latest ones have no floppy drive at all.

 

Answer to your concrete question: you can copy files from original Atari disks IF : there are regular files visible on floppy (about 50% of ST games is not such) and it is 720KB format , or SS 360KB . If format is 800KB or 400KB, Windows XP and later will not recognise it. Then you need specialised copy SW :

http://atari.8bitchip.info/floimgd.php

But it means not that your copy will work - there is usually copy protection too. There are some cases, when original is not copy-protceted - then usually there is manual protection. Very rare cases without any copy protection: Flight Simulator 2 and it's Scenery Disks for instance.