IDE+ 2.0 problems with CF card

[AtariGeezer]

I've tried 2 different CF cards (8GB and 2GB) on 2 different IDE to CF adapters with IDE+ and always get the "Error 144, not formatted or bad sector" message while copying files.

 

On a real 2GB HD under SDX, I use "copy /R A: C:" to copy the included ATR on to a partition and all directories/files get copied over just fine. But, on either CF card, I get the dredded Error 144 so I try again and it copies more files, but again still gett the error 144... Think I must have tried this 15+ times already.

 

The CF cards have been tested on a PC and show no sector errors.

FDisk'd 15 partitions with 65,535 sectors at 512 / 256 bytes per sector (tried both).

 

Can a few of you with an IDE+ try copying this ATR to a partition on your CF card and see if it copies all files without any problems? (It takes about 15 minutes)...

 

carina_27_1.zip

 

Thanks,

Jay

[Marius]

I have the same issue with certain brand CF cards, and certain sizes.

 

I stick to smaller CF cards (1GB max).

 

I did not test your atr, but I have had the same issue with 2GB cf cards; and I know Louis from ANG BBS had also issues with CF cards on IDE+ ... MyIDE ][ does not have the issue, although MyIDE I had the issue too. Obviously this problem can be solved (since it is solved on MyIDE ][) but I am afraid Steven Tucker is not going to share the knowledge HOW he managed to make MyIDE ][ deal with this issue.

[+Larry]

What brand cards are you using? It really does seem to matter with these IDE devices.

 

I'm not a Sparta user, so I can't really answer your question, but I can tell you that I've never had an issue with Sandisk or Transcend 2 MB cards. I actually use an SD adapter with a Transcend 2 GB SD card, although I previously used a 2 GB Sandisk CF.

 

-Larry

[AtariGeezer]

What brand cards are you using? It really does seem to matter with these IDE devices.

 

I'm not a Sparta user, so I can't really answer your question, but I can tell you that I've never had an issue with Sandisk or Transcend 2 MB cards. I actually use an SD adapter with a Transcend 2 GB SD card, although I previously used a 2 GB Sandisk CF.

 

-Larry

The 2GB is a sony and the 8GB is a Digital film. My 3, 4 GB Transcend's are in my 2 SIDE's and Incognito...

I also have a 2nd 2GB sony working in Incognito.

Edited March 28, 2013 by AtariGeezer

[AtariGeezer]

I have the same issue with certain brand CF cards, and certain sizes.

 

I stick to smaller CF cards (1GB max).

 

I did not test your atr, but I have had the same issue with 2GB cf cards; and I know Louis from ANG BBS had also issues with CF cards on IDE+ ... MyIDE ][ does not have the issue, although MyIDE I had the issue too. Obviously this problem can be solved (since it is solved on MyIDE ][) but I am afraid Steven Tucker is not going to share the knowledge HOW he managed to make MyIDE ][ deal with this issue.

 

Hmmm, for the price of a 1GB, I can get another 2GB HD. Might have to shop for some more Transends...

Edited March 28, 2013 by AtariGeezer

[candle]

have you tryed using them in side or incognito?

just for fun...

[AtariGeezer]

have you tryed using them in side or incognito?

just for fun...

 

In Incognito, the 2BG Sony was in there already, but hadn't done any extensive testing on it before today.

I copied that ATR to both the 2BG Sony and the 8GB Digital Film today, whithout any problems on the first try

 

So it looks like IDE+ might have a timming issue with some CF cards?

[drac030]

Error 144 is an odd error code for timing problems, because it is returned by BIOS basically when the controller sets the ERROR bit in the IDE status register. I think it might perhaps indicate some contact issue? I.e. there are some vibrations (keystrokes, small vibrations of the table) which might make the contact (between the IDE+ and the computer) intermittent, thus causing junk appearing momentarily in the IDE registers.

 

The same problem might not apply to a real disk just because a disk with spinning platters is much heavier than a CF card, and its weight stabilizes things well enough to prevent the above problem from happening.

 

Well, that's just a theory... timing problems would cause BIOS to report errors 140 and 142 rather than 144.

[candle]

put a sack of flour over it to get some weight, see if that helps

vibrations my ass

[drac030]

Me? I have a disk, and no such problems.

 

As I said, err 144 may be caused by occasional junk in IDE registers. Why this junk appears is another matter.

[candle]

why you?

your ide+ interface has optimal weight

Jay

[flashjazzcat]

Can a few of you with an IDE+ try copying this ATR to a partition on your CF card and see if it copies all files without any problems? (It takes about 15 minutes)...

 

Worked for me, with IDE+ hanging attractively off the back of my 1200XL via a centronics to IDC ribbon cable.

 

I should've put the ATR on a CF card and used SIDE, however: it would have been a lot faster than using Aspeqt.

[Marius]

It is an issue that did exist in myide but is fixed now. It also exists on black box.

 

I do not believe it is related to vibrations or bad contacts.

[Marius]

In another thread I already wrote about it, but let's do that again:

 

On my BlackBox (which does not have an IDE but a SCSI port) I use these famous Acard SCSI -> IDE bridges. They work perfect, but... the first editions of them needed a certain firmware upgrade to be compatible with CF cards (just like the first Sio2IDE firmwares... they would also not work with CF cards).

 

Obviously CF cards are not 100% compatible with IDE harddisk standard.

 

But back to the Blackbox

I have around 40 different CF cards here, and I found out that the 'bigger in size' the more issues. (And very small is not good either).

The best experience I have with 128MB, 256MB and 512MB.

 

I also found out that very old IDE -> CF adapters do not want to work with the bigger CF cards. So when I use a 'newer' CF->IDE adapter, the results get a bit better. But stil... the issue AtariGeezer has, does also exist on BlackBox

 

Now about IDE+

Unfortunately IDE+ is having 44 pins small IDE connector, and all my cf->IDE adapters are 40 pin normal size IDE connector; so I can not do a lot of exchanges here to test.

 

I have two types of CF adapters with 44 pins, and the first type is working a tiny bit better than the other type (there is a noticeable difference!)

 

I have a lot of CF cards that work perfect on IDE+ but I also have a few that give the same issue AtariGeezer describes. It is hard to believe that the issue is caused by bad contacts or vibrations, since this issue does not occur on most of my CF cards.

[drac030]

It is hard to believe that the issue is caused by bad contacts or vibrations, since this issue does not occur on most of my CF cards.

 

Ok, so scratch my theory, if it can be fixed in software, I can try to do that, but I need some cooperation from someone having these issues often enough to know for sure when it is fixed.

[Marius]

hi Konrad,

 

I can be your beta tester if you want.

 

Greetz

Marius

[+Stephen]

I tried this, but I cannot get my IDE 2+ to bot in my machine with Ultimate 1MB - even when the SDX on the Ultimate is turned off.

[drac030]

Maybe you should try to disable or change the ID of U1MB PBI?

[+Stephen]

I also disabled the PBI. I'll play some more this weekend.

[+Larry]

40 CF cards -- the perfect beta tester...

-Larry

[candle]

Marius: i'm using 16gb CF card as my primary hard disk for atari, but i'm using it with side, not ide+

ide+ is build from discreete logic chips which are prone to various environmental changes, including the attidue (i'm exagerating a bit here)

and since various devices i saw were build using various components from various vendors or even in various technology (ACT HCT HC LS you name it) there is quite big chance one you get is not up to the specs

even Konrad's ide+ has developed some issues after installing ultimate1mb in his machine

funny thing that changing ram chip on ide+ board resolved issues he had

 

my point here is, that this design is very picky, and can work for some, and not at all for others

not very good design practice i must say

[+bob1200xl]

18, 19, 20... 36, 37, 38...

 

Larry has 40?

 

Dang. I need some more CF cards!

 

Seriously, just what problems are people having? The main issue that I have seen is the edge-triggered chip select on the IDE interface. If your driver circuit is not damped correctly, you will get ringing on the select line, causing an extra select for that read. Result is that one byte is lost on the exchange. The card differences that people experience are caused by variations in the input circuits to ringing. Some see it and some don't. My interfaces don't ring sufficiently to affect any of the cards that I tried, but using an IDE-SD adaptor fails every time. This is due to the LSI chip in the IDE-SD adaptor being too easily triggered by ringing.

 

What affects ringing?

 

Impedance mis-match, mostly. The driver and the receiver have to reflect the same impedance.

 

Ground bounce. The abrupt current pulse when a signal changes state forces ground away from its nominal 0v level.

 

Slow rise/fall times. The longer the signal spends in the transition area between 0 and 1, the more likely that the input circuit will see alternating phase changes.

 

If any or all of these conditions are marginal you will have problems. Putting your finger on an IC will fix/break a circuit. Some ICs/CF cards will work and some ICs/CF cards that work just fine in any other system will fail. What works in an 800XL fails in a 130XE - all examples of noise/ringing issues.

 

You can mask these failures in software to a certain extent. Fixing them unconditionally is a challenge due to the old technology.

 

Bob

[+Larry]

Not quite -- Marius said he as about 40. Larry might have a dozen, at most -- 32MB up to 4GB -- all Sandisk or Transcend with one (lonely) Viking which is a re-branded Toshiba (IIRC).

 

BTW, interesting explanation.

 

18, 19, 20... 36, 37, 38...

 

Larry has 40?

 

Bob

[Marius]

I have an incredible amount of CF cards yes. When I was very active with MyIDE ... I realised it was sometimes difficult to find a CF card that finally worked with the MyIDE. It took some purchases to get to this amount, but as soon as I found one working, I bought a few more of that batch.

 

Most of my CF cards work fine with the IDE+

 

I do not have SIDE 2 (although I'm very interested!) ... but in the new MyIDE ][ I have zero CF cards that do not work. They all work fine in MyIDE ][

[drac030]

Result is that one byte is lost on the exchange

 

That would not cause the symptoms AtariGeezer described for IDE+.

Edited March 30, 2013 by drac030