Gunstar Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) Hmmmm, having listened to both now I cannot agree. Pokey can sound good, but Sid still sound quite a bit better. How can Pokey be on par with Sid when it is technically inferior, is thought by most to be inferior and sounds, at least slightly, inferior? If you can name a single Pokey that sounds as good as Ghouls & Ghosts level 1 then Ill be over the moon. Still, it seems to be a very capable chip and better than most give it credit for. Ill be enjoying playing around with it for a bit. You mentioned before, also about maybe being spoiled by SID. No, you are USED to SID, like I am USED to POKEY, and I think POKEY sounds better than the tinny sound of SID any day of the week. POKEY can even emulate SID, so which is technically superior? SID can never fully emulate POKEY because it's missing a sound voice/channel. Another point, and as far as SID, I don't know, but POKEY can combine any two voices for 16-bit sound too, if SID can do this, then kudos, if not, just another example of a technically superior POKEY in that instance. But in the end, it will ALWAYS come down to opinion and preference, and what you are USED too: like Coke and Pepsi, if you grew up with one and are used to it, you will think the other inferior...but only to your tastes you have become accustomed too. Both chips have advantages and disadvantages to each other and it pretty much averages out, IMHO, and just comes back to personal preference and what you are used too. Edited October 27, 2016 by Gunstar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdefabri Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Check this . Some slight changes ... Interesting - volumes look the same, but sounds lower and some vibrato added, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Interesting - volumes look the same, but sounds lower and some vibrato added, correct? It mostly sounds like the same volume. But that's more a subjective recognition thing. I added some instruments for volume and for modulation adjustments , to have some simple change of the higher sounds. Also , at the end , just the "and" feature of the channels were used. It gives some audible higher sounds to the waves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 You mentioned before, also about maybe being spoiled by SID. No, you are USED to SID, like I am USED to POKEY, and I think POKEY sounds better than the tinny sound of SID any day of the week. POKEY can even emulate SID, so which is technically superior? SID can never fully emulate POKEY because it's missing a sound voice/channel. Another point, and as far as SID, I don't know, but POKEY can combine any two voices for 16-bit sound too, if SID can do this, then kudos, if not, just another example of a technically superior POKEY in that instance. But in the end, it will ALWAYS come down to opinion and preference, and what you are USED too: like Coke and Pepsi, if you grew up with one and are used to it, you will think the other inferior...but only to your tastes you have become accustomed too. Both chips have advantages and disadvantages to each other and it pretty much averages out, IMHO, and just comes back to personal preference and what you are used too. You mention that SID can not fully emulate POKEY because of a missing voice. But the POKEY emulation of SID is nowhere near close to full emulation either. It's a cool project, but playing the emulated SID files on POKEY sounds nothing like the SID. It's like listening to a poorly digitised representation of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 And there is pokey player on SID for the missing Hubbard songs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraXXious Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 Wow, thats amazing - it is not as good as the SID original, but it is close - the instruments don't have the same fidelity (of course the SID has sound manipulation capabilities that the Pokey is missing so that is to be expected) and it missing some voices and effects, but overall it still sounds great. This is the sort of thing I was chasing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraXXious Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 You mentioned before, also about maybe being spoiled by SID. No, you are USED to SID, like I am USED to POKEY, and I think POKEY sounds better than the tinny sound of SID any day of the week. POKEY can even emulate SID, so which is technically superior? SID can never fully emulate POKEY because it's missing a sound voice/channel. Another point, and as far as SID, I don't know, but POKEY can combine any two voices for 16-bit sound too, if SID can do this, then kudos, if not, just another example of a technically superior POKEY in that instance. But in the end, it will ALWAYS come down to opinion and preference, and what you are USED too: like Coke and Pepsi, if you grew up with one and are used to it, you will think the other inferior...but only to your tastes you have become accustomed too. Both chips have advantages and disadvantages to each other and it pretty much averages out, IMHO, and just comes back to personal preference and what you are used too. Most SID music has 4 voices - the forth voice is digitised effects created by activating the volume register - it is actually a bug in the original chip which gives the unexpected benefit of a four voice and digitised sound playback for very little CPU usage. You may be right about my being USED to the SID, but the SID is hardly 'tinny' - depending on the sound it can sound very bassy.... tinny..... or neither. The whole thing with the SID is that unlike other sound chips of the time, including the Pokey, it was not designed as a mere computer sound output device, it was designed as a mini synthesizer on a chip with many of the sound wave manipulation abilities of such. I have played with the SID player for the Pokey and its amazing - but it does not emulate the SID. A more accurate description would be it PLAYS an approximation of the SID to the best of its more limited capabilities. Still, and AMAZING achievement - very clever programmer. For a more bassy C64 tune try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GlCcO4zghM . After the loading theme, go to the 2 minute mark for the Title screen music. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraXXious Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 POKEY for the win! Lol, not quite, but it is a very good try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Wow, thats amazing - it is not as good as the SID original, but it is close - the instruments don't have the same fidelity (of course the SID has sound manipulation capabilities that the Pokey is missing so that is to be expected) and it missing some voices and effects, but overall it still sounds great. This is the sort of thing I was chasing. 99% Music. I still wonder why not 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) For a more bassy C64 tune try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GlCcO4zghM . After the loading theme, go to the 2 minute mark for the Title screen music.Yeah, it sounds better than all of the chips in that time. But musically it is " / " ... if you understand. The real problem with POKEY is: They don't get a f.... Tracker for it to work, that allows to program the sounds directly. Only a special Patch of RMT allows to use something like this: Edited October 27, 2016 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraXXious Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 Yeah, it sounds better than all of the chips in that time. But musically it is " / " ... if you understand. The real problem with POKEY is: They don't get a f.... Tracker for it to work, that allows to program the sounds directly. Yes, but thats a personal taste thing - I think the Flimbo's Quest music sounds great and is VERY catchy.... the game however is rubbish - though many disagree with me here too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) Yes, but thats a personal taste thing - I think the Flimbo's Quest music sounds great and is VERY catchy.... the game however is rubbish - though many disagree with me here too. Yeah, nothing is more diverse than people's taste in music. But, if you compare any "remix" of a SID, you realize fast, where things struggle. Edited October 27, 2016 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) I know; I don't make friends with such sentences, but most Atari Tunes, even from Polish Demos were musically crap. But, not to blame the musicians, it all started at Atari by creating a sound-chip , not knowing anything of music creation and musical terms. But such Stuff IS possible, if the software allows it... Some decades ago, you wouldn't imagine in any way, that POKEY could do such stuff by just programming the sound channels... Edited October 27, 2016 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultrasteve Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 For the Hubbard fans, there's a new blog post over at https://c64audio.com/blogs/news/rob-tari-rob-hubbard-on-the-atari-8-bit-and-st-platforms that highlights his work with the POKEY on the 8-bit systems. It's been written as a companion to the Project Hubbard Kickstarter. Might be of interest to some of you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 For the Hubbard fans, there's a new blog post over at https://c64audio.com/blogs/news/rob-tari-rob-hubbard-on-the-atari-8-bit-and-st-platforms that highlights his work with the POKEY on the 8-bit systems. It's been written as a companion to the Project Hubbard Kickstarter. Might be of interest to some of you. "This is the weirdest music choice ever made in porting Rob Hubbard music and seems to be taking the piss out of the Finders Keepers music, but getting the piss-take wrong. It's clinically strange, and not very pleasant. Oh, how I wished this had the real music." Nice description 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) The whole thing with the SID is that unlike other sound chips of the time, including the Pokey.......And that is where all C64 loverboys go wrong. POKEY : 1978 SID: 1981 Yes, now, in 2017 it seems they were of the same generation but this simply is not true. In those years, one year was like a decade in development of chips...... when released POKEY was the best sound device on any computer. And i will always prefer the clear, open sound of POKEY even it has some limitations. By the way.........this.....is just amazing.......the lead sounds come pretty damn close to the original.....awesome work https://youtu.be/LQbeH4a3KWc Edited October 21, 2017 by Level42 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+StaxX28 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 By the way.........this.....is just amazing.......the lead sounds come pretty damn close to the original.....awesome work Thank you 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 2 POKEYs using all CPU. It sound good, even without substance, but the tune is clear... How about a version, running on a stock Atari with the possibility of using it in a game ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraXXious Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) And that is where all C64 loverboys go wrong. POKEY : 1978 SID: 1981 Yes, now, in 2017 it seems they were of the same generation but this simply is not true. In those years, one year was like a decade in development of chips...... when released POKEY was the best sound device on any computer. And i will always prefer the clear, open sound of POKEY even it has some limitations. By the way.........this.....is just amazing.......the lead sounds come pretty damn close to the original.....awesome work What are you talking about? My statement that the SID was more capable than other sound chips of the time, including the Pokey is 100% correct. When the C64 was released in late 81 (but pretty much 82 worldwide) the available CURRENT system from Atari was the XL range - which used the Pokey. The fact that they had developed and first used the chip years earlier is immaterial - in 1982 it was the competition to the C64. Of course, it would be EXPECTED that hardware three years newer SHOULD be more powerful. If you were to say that the Pokey was a bigger accomplishment than the SID due to being released years earlier, then you might have a point, but this still does not negate the fact that the SID is more powerful, again, as you would expect due to the later date of development. If I were to (correctly) state that the Amiga had a better sound chip that most PCs at the time of it's release, would that be incorrect on the basis that the SID was 4 years old at that time? No, of course not. The C64 was STILL an available, produced and supported platform at the time of the Amiga's introduction (and many years after). Do Atari loverboys often twist the facts to fashion excuses for the shortcomings of their preferred platform? Edited October 21, 2017 by abraXXious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraXXious Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) Oh, and the amazing Ghouls and Ghosts sound track only requires ONE SID chip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjKPvk4rnw Title music is atmospheric with some nice metal hammer sounds, but I have always had a soft spot for the Level 1,3 and 4 themes. Level 1 - 3:58 Level 2 - 6:50 Level 3 - 9:20 Level 4 - 11:40 Level 5 - 13:35 After listening to that can you say the Pokey has "clearer" sound with a straight face? Edited October 21, 2017 by abraXXious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 When the C64 was released in late 81 (but pretty much 82 worldwide) the available CURRENT system from Atari was the XL range No, when the C64 was released (August 1982) the available current system from Atari was 400/800 range (released November 1979). The XL range was released in 1983: May 1200XL, October 600XL, November 800XL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abraXXious Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 No, when the C64 was released (August 1982) the available current system from Atari was 400/800 range (released November 1979). The XL range was released in 1983: May 1200XL, October 600XL, November 800XL. Hmmmm, I thought the XL range was released in 82. In any event, makes no difference as the sound hardware (and the majority of the rest) was identical. I shall edit my previous statement on your correction - in 1982 the C64s competition from Atari was the original Atari 800 and Atari 400 - both of which still used the Pokey chip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 To make it more clear: There only exists ONE POKEY revision in all machines. But SID , as a Soundchip or even a typical "sound giving" device never existed. POKEY was able to do most of it before, then there exist variations of SIDs , and so on... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Oh, and the amazing Ghouls and Ghosts sound track only requires ONE SID chip. After listening to that can you say the Pokey has "clearer" sound with a straight face? The latest tune by STAXX shows that POKEY is far more stable than any emulation. I hope, we will get sometimes a real playback in there... For today , I could offer this... for some comparision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 An old one.... Would someone expect POKEY doing that sounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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