Which games would you have pictured on the Jaguar and why?

[Bill Loguidice]

I think Highlander and Alone in the Dark on Jag CD and 3DO respectively are proof of concept that a tomb raider type game could be done on the Jaguar. Would it run on the same engine? No. Therefore it's highly unlikely that anyone's going to build a game that complex from the ground up.

 

If I were a billionaire, I'd put together a small team just to program Jaguar games (Tomb Raider being among the first.) Until that happens, we'll just have to keep talking about it.

 

As I stated previously, I see nothing about Alone in the Dark or Highlander that's in any way equivalent to Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider is fully texture mapped, free roaming, and relatively quick action. Highlander and Alone in the Dark have fixed points of views with pre-rendered background and fairly deliberate, i.e, mostly slow, paces. I'm asking because I genuinely would like to know... What in your opinion makes you think those games are any type of analog to what Tomb Raider is? Further, I don't even think it's fair to Alone in the Dark, as modest as it is in terms of 3D, to compare it to Highlander. That's giving Highlander far too much credit.

[Lost Dragon]

As for this mythical untapped power of the Jaguar, my god it'll have to be somrething Biblical if it's ever found as the more coders i actually interview myself or see quoted from past interviews that ask about what the hardware allowed them to do, the more and more actual proof i see of just how far hardware was pushed, by commercial developers at the time, many simply were not fans of it, no matter how bitter a pill that might be to swallow:

 

Steve Mitchell who worked on Highlander talked of the PS1 being a far better platform to develop for than the Jaguar with better tools, a lot more effective RAM and it's texture mapping etc and that's before you got onto the level of support at development, let alone marketing Sony offered Atari could only dream of.

 

You'd have to be looking at commercial sucide thinking of developing your flagship new I.P for a CD add-on for a platform already struggling in the market as was, espically given when you knew more powerful platforms were'nt that far off, from companies

[Lost Dragon]

With the cash reserves and brand names to back them, to to stand anything like a real chance in the market of that era.

 

If i can do nothing more than shed some light on where the rumours started and why, it'll of been time well spent, but yes, Highlander Jag CD is a prime example of just how unrealistic a version of Tomb Raider as we know it, is on Jaguar:

 

pre-rendered Z buffered backdrops (65,000 colours and all), limited polygon characters (motion captured or not), your simply talking a whole different approach.It's like saying DC Carrier proves DC could of pulled off a decent version of Uncharted 2, If only the untapped power of the Dreamcast was used, Sega had'nt pulled the plug when they did....

[Bill Loguidice]

As for games being specifically targeted at 3DO and Jaguar at that point? can only think of likes of Alien Trilogy:Originally planned as 3DO and MCD only before again, realisation hit niether platform could handle what was required.

 

Just to clarify my statement, I specifically meant that targeting a game specifically to the duo of 3DO and Jaguar. There are plenty of cases of 3DO or Jaguar exclusives, and 3DO and Jaguar in addition to other platforms, but never the pair of 3DO and Jaguar by themselves. I'm sure there are at least a few examples, but, based on reception of both (albeit with 3DO having better backing and sales), as well as the disparate types of hardware, it seems counter-intuitive to think that a company would be targeting specifically that duo to the exclusion of other platforms. It was more a statement of "suspicion" to its accuracy because of how unlikely that scenario seems to me.

[Lost Dragon]

That came out wrong. :-(

 

 

Basically, can't we just be grateful for small mercy type stuff here and be thankfil given Atari's bizzare policy of releasing so much stuff simply not 'fitting' for a 64 Bit System, rushing games to market, we did at least see likes of:Doom, AVP, Iron Solider 1+2, Hover strike CD, Tempest 2000, Skyhammer (but even that no thanks to Atari themselves), Rayman etc.

 

Looking back at it, i honestly think at time we were lucky to get even these.

[Bill Loguidice]

With the cash reserves and brand names to back them, to to stand anything like a real chance in the market of that era.

 

If i can do nothing more than shed some light on where the rumours started and why, it'll of been time well spent, but yes, Highlander Jag CD is a prime example of just how unrealistic a version of Tomb Raider as we know it, is on Jaguar:

 

pre-rendered Z buffered backdrops (65,000 colours and all), limited polygon characters (motion captured or not), your simply talking a whole different approach.It's like saying DC Carrier proves DC could of pulled off a decent version of Uncharted 2, If only the untapped power of the Dreamcast was used, Sega had'nt pulled the plug when they did....

 

That's the point I was driving at as well. I will say though that at least the Dreamcast could pull off a reasonably recognizable version of "Uncharted 2" because at least we have competent 3D free roaming adventure/action games on the platform to compare it to. We have no such technical equivalency on the Jaguar. If someone said that Alone in the Dark or even a Resident Evil-type game were under serious consideration for the Jaguar that to me would be far more believable given what we have evidence for (not theoretical) of the actual capabilities.

[Lost Dragon]

I cannot think off top of my head of any Only on Jaguar and 3DO games, even at planning stages.Most stuff seemed to have PC CD Rom planned as well or 32X or just Jaguar (or Jag CD) and 3DO.

 

The user bases for both would'nt have reached point where they were at the point where publishers could afford to 'ignore' other systems in favour of just these 2 and due to time period they were both released in, niether ever really stood a chance of getting to that point either.

[Bill Loguidice]

That came out wrong. :-(

 

 

Basically, can't we just be grateful for small mercy type stuff here and be thankfil given Atari's bizzare policy of releasing so much stuff simply not 'fitting' for a 64 Bit System, rushing games to market, we did at least see likes of:Doom, AVP, Iron Solider 1+2, Hover strike CD, Tempest 2000, Skyhammer (but even that no thanks to Atari themselves), Rayman etc.

 

Looking back at it, i honestly think at time we were lucky to get even these.

 

Indeed. Considering Atari sold about 125,000 consoles in the Jaguar's first two years of existence, it's impressive it lasted as long as it did with so many developers/publishers (as few as there were) still producing content right up until the end. You had to have a lot of faith in an unusually high attach rate to even consider breaking even on your investment after it was clear what was going on with the platform after the first year.

[Lost Dragon]

:-) I used Uncharted 2 as an example as for myself it's very much a game that relies heavily on the hardware to deliver the spectacle as it were, downgraded visually to level DC could pull off, so much of the 'impact' of the key set pieces would be lost, it'd be too far removed to be 'the same game' for myself, no matter how far the DC was being pushed, what unfound power had been tapped into.

 

Could a different coding team (or Lore thenmselves) given better tools, more time, money etc developed a better game in the style of Alone In The Dark on Jaguar? i firmly belive yes they could.Would it of been anything like Tomb Raider...pfff no.

[Lost Dragon]

The Dreamcast and Jaguar make good comparisons for myself.I bought both on day 1 of their release in UK, both had the plug pulled before we saw what either was really capable of, both have had a thriving homebrew community spring up since they died at retail and both delivered enough games (thankfully) for me to get VFM from both.

 

But i'm under no illusion as to what could be achived from either, i'm not sat here looking for 'proof' DC could of handled something like the 1st God Of War game on PS2 let alone the 2nd or Burnout, let alone Burnout 3.

 

But then the UK press never claimed these were coming to DC or versions were 30-40% complete (despite no screens ever appearing) or the fact someone has a version running on the Saturn with a massive Ram cart, maths chips etc etc all doing the work, rather than stock hardware. :-)

 

 

I find looking into how the claims came about far more interesting than dreamily thinking the Jaguar had so much more to offer up, technically and that's why i'll keep looking ....

[Bill Loguidice]

The Dreamcast and Jaguar make good comparisons for myself.I bought both on day 1 of their release in UK, both had the plug pulled before we saw what either was really capable of, both have had a thriving homebrew community spring up since they died at retail and both delivered enough games (thankfully) for me to get VFM from both.

 

But i'm under no illusion as to what could be achived from either, i'm not sat here looking for 'proof' DC could of handled something like the 1st God Of War game on PS2 let alone the 2nd or Burnout, let alone Burnout 3.

 

But then the UK press never claimed these were coming to DC or versions were 30-40% complete (despite no screens ever appearing) or the fact someone has a version running on the Saturn with a massive Ram cart, maths chips etc etc all doing the work, rather than stock hardware. :-)

 

 

I find looking into how the claims came about far more interesting than dreamily thinking the Jaguar had so much more to offer up, technically and that's why i'll keep looking ....

 

I don't want to seem like I'm being argumentative here, but I'm going to offer another counterpoint. I disagree that the Dreamcast didn't see its full potential realized. I feel that it did, and in fact did so right out of the gate with games like Soul Calibur. Despite a relatively short time on the market compared to some other major consoles, a wide range of AAA games in every genre made it to the platform and it was home to many innovative offerings, from stock online capability to its wide variety of peripherals. In stark contrast to the Jaguar and Atari, Sega could hold its head high that it went out at the top of their game with the Dreamcast.

 

It could be argued that the Dreamcast hardware was also so good that it could have easily remained technologically competitive to about 2003, i.e., the first two years after the Xbox's and GameCube's release, buying plenty of time for a proper Dreamcast II had Sega been financially stable. I'd have no faith in making the same comparison for the first two years of the PS1 and Saturn, and first six months of the N64, with the Jaguar.

 

There are lots of other reasons why it's not a fair comparison, including the Dreamcast selling more than its predecessor, the Saturn, etc.

[Lost Dragon]

:-) Don't worry Bill, i don't see it as being argumentative, far from it.Just good for debate, this is'nt RG forum where i'm going to risk a ban, just for having a differring viewpoint or simply make shit up, just to get 1 up over a fellow poster :-)

I'd actually use one of your examples as to why i personally feel DC never realised it's full potential.Fantastic as games like Soul Caliber were, i never saw likes of Konami or Namco really offering more than 'token support' for the format, thus like Atari SEGA had to offer it's own versions of similar games to what Sony had.Sega GT to compete with Gran Turismo, Headhunter to compete with MGS 2, i'm not a footy fan, but far as i know DC lacked anything close to a decent footy (or is that soccer in USA?) game to match the Fifa's and ISS's of the gaming world, nothing to really match Namco's Ace (or Air) combat series on PS2, the Wipeout clones that appeared on DC were poor, so personally i found it lacked key elements in certain genres.

[Lost Dragon]

Also DC was a make or break platform for Sega, just as Jaguar was for Atari, both were claiming to be flexible enough, pack enough juice to face upto the newer platforms (Saturn vs Jaguar, PS2 Vs DC etc).I'd say games like MSR, JSR, Headhunter, Ecco etc matched 2nd wave PS2 ganmes, but once Middleware etc made PS2 development easier, coders learnt how to code properly for the PS2, the real gap started to appear.It might not have pushed anything like the number of polygons Sony claimed, in real terms, but PS2 simply had a lot more grunt under the bonnet than DC in areas like this and once tapped into, the power difference was clear.

 

:-) Just for the record, i use my DC regularly, PS2 not seen daylight for months.

[JagChris]

 

http://www.unseen64.net/2008/05/08/tomb-raider-psxsaturn-beta/

 

I realize this is me purely beating a dead horse (and probably retreading ground in this years-old thread; so be it), but I'll say out loud for the record that based on how poorly Highlander looked and of course ran even with its pre-rendered backgrounds (and it's the closest analog on the system we have to a Tomb Raider-type game, even though it's not that close in reality), there's no way the Jaguar could pull off anything resembling the Tomb Raider engine.

 

 

This is what Atari_Owl had to say about it:

 

Its difficult to understand why Highlander looks so primitive - there's really no reason why it had to.

I think the programmers were just lazy.

[Lost Dragon]

I think that chase email i sent today has delivered in style.For those seeking proof Jaguar could of pulled off Tomb Raider to degree you saw in that Edge supplement, think again....

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/233549-finally-i-have-the-proof-behind-those-jaguar-cd-screenshots/

They were'nt 'real' in the 1st place.

See this is exactly why i track down sources behind UK mag claims and screens.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

 

This is what Atari_Owl had to say about it:

 

I think the programmers were just lazy.

 

This has always been something of a point of contention for me. Way back when in the 2004/5 timeframe, my first book was going to be a slightly different form of what eventually became "Vintage Game Consoles" in 2014. In the original vision for the book, I was going to cover EVERY game playing computer, console, and handheld ever released in the US (which proved impractical, obviously). I was going to include something called the "System Ranking Matrix" (which made it in slightly modified form onto various versions of Armchair Arcade), where I - as objectively as possible - ranked the various systems on various qualities from basically 0.5 - 10+, e.g., a text-based CP/M machine might get a .5 for graphics quality, whereas a Commodore 64 might rate a 4.5 on that scale. I did the ranking not on THEORETICAL technical specs or demos, but in what was actually delivered in honest to goodness games. That to me is the fairest judge of a system, despite some systems clearly never seeing their full technical potential realized in actual software.

 

The above is my long-winded way of saying that while we might acknowledge that Highlander on the Jaguar could have been done better (and in a LOT of ways), it's the only real-world example of its type on the Jaguar we have, so it's fair to use it as the main point of discussion, particularly in determining how much of Tomb Raider might be possible (and there's so much of a gap, I can't help but conclude, not at all in any recognizable form). Highlander is the best the Jaguar had and at least gives us a basis for what it could handle, particularly when combined with every other 3D game released on the platform and what concessions were made on those.

 

And no, I don't think it's ever been fair to compare the Jaguar to 3D-capable systems. It simply wasn't designed with that in mind. In direct contrast to how Sony correctly gambled on a polygon-centric console with the PS1, Atari was inadvertently caught with a cartridge-based, 2D-centric system, which became something you really couldn't compete with anymore. With that in mind, it would have been nice for Atari and its respective developers to throw caution to the wind and focus on stellar 2D games that took genuine advantage of the hardware's strengths, rather than try to come up with mediocre 3D games just to say, "hey, we can do it too!" Frankly, they couldn't have sold any worse had they done so and I doubt the Jaguar would be less of a joke outside of the community, which, let's face it, has a lot to do with the platform's dalliances in 3D.

[+remowilliams]

The Highlander game is unadulterated shit and could have undoubtedly been done better.

 

I think the Jag could pull off a decent Alone in the Dark type of game, but it would need to have the same slow pacing.

 

Anyone who correlates those two and somehow thinks the Jag is capable of doing Tomb Raider in any sense that it would still be even remotely the same game or experience needs to have their head examined.

 

And no, I don't think it's ever been fair to compare the Jaguar to 3D-capable systems.

 

It surely isn't. The Jag is a 2D powerhouse and a puny weakling at 3D, anyone thinking otherwise has no concept of the hardware, how it actually works, and what the capabilities are.

[Lost Dragon]

After crushing peoples dreams with the truth on those Jag CD Tomb Raider screens, all i'll say about Highlander CD is...watch this space for further developments:-)

 

 

(But i'd best not pass on the lazy comments or i'll never hear 'owt back :-) ).

 

 

Here's the 2nd snippet from my interview with Core's then head of marketing you might like (posted in other thread as well):

 

 

' it didn’t do us any harm with speculation rife about certain products in development either. The advent of social media has ruined the idea that any company can just keep quiet about things like we used to 20 years ago. '

[NeoGeoNinja]

Sorry to just 'jump in' unannounced, but to bang the 'DC never realised its full potential' discussion:

 

Shenmue & Shenmue II - for starters...

[Warzard]

It surely isn't. The Jag is a 2D powerhouse and a puny weakling at 3D, anyone thinking otherwise has no concept of the hardware, how it actually works, and what the capabilities are.

 

I disagree slightly with your statement regarding 3D. It's true that the Jag couldn't compete with the systems of the time in terms of number and textured polygons, but it can do z buffered and gouraud shaded polygons at pretty good speeds. A game like Zero 5 comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjRir-2KMM

 

It would have took Atari embracing the Jags flaws and making the kind of 3D games it could do really well instead of "looking over the neighbors bushes" to see what they're doing. To your other point, it is "a no brainer" the Atari should have made/license arcade and computer 2D/2.5D games to show off what the Jag could do. Which is the reason for this thread.

[sd32]

 

I disagree slightly with your statement regarding 3D. It's true that the Jag couldn't compete with the systems of the time in terms of number and textured polygons, but it can do z buffered and gouraud shaded polygons at pretty good speeds. A game like Zero 5 comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjRir-2KMM

 

It would have took Atari embracing the Jags flaws and making the kind of 3D games it could do really well instead of "looking over the neighbors bushes" to see what they're doing. To your other point, it is "a no brainer" the Atari should have made/license arcade and computer 2D/2.5D games to show off what the Jag could do. Which is the reason for this thread.

 

Well, if we compare the Jaguar with systems released the same year, 1993, then it appears to be a 3d powerhouse againts the Fujitsu Marty and the Commodore CD32. As for Jaguar vs 3DO, it is pretty even, each has advantages over the other, but pretty even overall. Compared with anything released before the 3DO, the Jaguars destroys them at 3d, so its a matter of perspective.

 

Againts systems released in the USA a couple years later, Playstation and Saturn, well yeah it gets killed when it comes to textured mapped polygons, but the diference isnt nearly as big when it comes to other type of 3d engines that arent polygon based.

 

Also, the Fujitsu Marty got a fine port of Alone in the Dark. It had a AMD 386SX 32bit CPU at 16 MHZ, 3.6 MIPS. Its GPU was only good for sprites, no support for polygons. 2MB of total RAM, cd based. So it had to do all its polygon work in software. Then the Jaguar should have no problem at all handling that game. Hell, it should be able to do something similar, with the beautiful background quality of Highlander, but gourad shadded characters with smoother, faster movement and response. Or am i missing something?

[sd32]

I remember back in the day, reading preview of an upcoming 3DO game called Ecstatica. It was originally a PC game, ala Alone in the Dark, but instead of using polygons for the character, they were built from elipsoids. So they were built from sphere like figures. The look intrigued me back then, but sadly, the game didnt end up coming out on the 3DO.

 

 

Game seems pretty goofy, hehe.I wonder how taxing this elipsoids would be for a console like the Jaguar, perhaps less than fully polygonal characters?.

 

By the way, they really need someone like The Lost Dragon in the 3DO comunitty, the are a lot of lost games that for some reason havent surfaced through the years, its a real shame.

[Lost Dragon]

That's very kind SD32.I'm a regular on both GTW64 (and GTW itself) and Unseen64 (bombarded poor chap that runs Unseen64 with hordes of info, he's busy picking through my emails as i speak).Once i'd exhausted all the C64 info i had, i went broad spectrum as it were, hence things like that shot of AVP on PS1 that no-one seemed aware of, or mag claims of Alien Trilogy being planned for MCD+3DO, Tomb Raider concepts done on MCD era.

Started contacting people behind lost Dreamcast and PC Games, hence finding out what became of things like bJump Runner, HMS Carnage etc-games i was really looking forward to, passing on info i've stumbled across on 3DO M2 games like D2 etc and i pass on all the Lost Game info that comes up in the various interviews i do.

Mark, from the Konix Multi-System site has me looking out for anyone who might have worked on the Konix in any form, plus i'm hoping my Domark Contacts can remember some info on Pitfighter on Panther etc.

So trust me, i'm actively looking for more Lost Game info..

[Lost Dragon]

As i've said before though, the biggest issues likes of myself and Frank Gasking etc find are those of sheer amount of time passed since projects were abandoned, so all work either lost/sold/destroyed or possibly sat on disks etc in storage somewhere.

 

Then you've got folks memories getting worse as they get older (i know mine is).

 

Then you encounter things like inital emails go well, then suddenly..stop.No warning etc.Frank was in contact with Bob armour before all contact stopped, so he never found out what happened to key missing C64 titles.It's frustrating, but it happens.

 

Key thing i'm learning is to keep looking, keep questioning, do not believe what you read in UK press, past, present or future, just look for answers yourself and think outside the box at times.

[Thorsten Günther]

 

I disagree slightly with your statement regarding 3D. It's true that the Jag couldn't compete with the systems of the time in terms of number and textured polygons, but it can do z buffered and gouraud shaded polygons at pretty good speeds. A game like Zero 5 comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjRir-2KMM

 

It would have took Atari embracing the Jags flaws and making the kind of 3D games it could do really well instead of "looking over the neighbors bushes" to see what they're doing. To your other point, it is "a no brainer" the Atari should have made/license arcade and computer 2D/2.5D games to show off what the Jag could do. Which is the reason for this thread.

 

Although I am not a programmer, it seems to me that you are correct - the Jaguar was not good at throwing around textured polygons, but it is sufficiently fast for shaded ones (as was not only shown in Zero 5, but also in the Iron Soldier and *morph games as welll as in Battlesphere and I-War). So instead of publishing low-fps games from the mediocre Hover Strike to outright crap like "Supercross 3D", why did Atari not admit to this drawback and aim for the likes of S.T.U.N. Runner and Cybersled. I especially wish World Tour Racing would have a "no textures" option (not just for removing the road texture - getting rid of all of them could have improved the frame rate even more).