Any reason why 'multi button' joysticks weren't supported on home computers

[ledzep]

A multi-button gamepad would be interesting, but not extremely useful, since existing software would not work with it.

 

I don't understand the problem. I mean, yes, you're right in that the new multi-button joystick wouldn't work with existing software that wasn't programmed for it. So what. That only matters if in order to acquire the new multi-button joystick you would be forced to get rid of all your other controllers. But nobody is suggesting that you're only allowed to own one controller, right? I have analog and digital joysticks, paddles, driving controllers, trak-balls, keypads, it doesn't matter to me that I can't use every controller with every game so long as I have the right controller for whatever game I'm playing.

 

Seriously, if you own an Atari 2600 are you going to refuse to buy Indy 500 because it doesn't use a controller you already own even though it comes with the correct, unique controllers needed to play that game? Or what about Star Raiders that comes with a keypad? I understand that no other games really use the driving controllers but what's to stop some homebrew programmer from coding a new game for that controller? I don't care that I can't use paddle controllers to play Missile Command, I just make sure I use the right controller.

 

If you make a new multi-button joystick and also make a great game for it and then another great game for it then you will hopefully generate popularity for it and get other programmers to write games for it. Maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't, but it absolutely won't happen if you don't offer the new joystick in the first place. It makes no sense to say that it sucks that Atari never had a multi-button stick and also say that it's a waste of time to make the joystick you wish Atari had offered. I own an Atari 5200 and one of the many things I've bought for it is a couple of modified joysticks that were converted to paddles. Atari never offered paddles for the 5200 and should have since a few games are hard as hell to play with a joystick (digital or analog). So now I have the right controller for Castle Crisis and Super Breakout.

 

If you make a new multi-button joystick and also make a great game for it that will also work with the normal 8-way digital single-button joystick and then another great game for it that will also work with the normal 8-way digital single-button joystick then gamers won't feel any need to buy the new multi-button joystick because they already own the standard joystick that your new game(s) can use. Make the joysticks and sell them, provide the schematics so that people can make their own (if they don't like your price or how your joystick looks) and build a user base for the new joystick.

 

Could something like this work? I think one of those resistance value options is the same as the standard paddle. Who knows how much effort it would be to wire together a controller base with 4 (or more) buttons. But I know there are some games out there that would work better with an analog stick (and more than 1 button) than with a digital stick. Tail Gunner and Star Wars, to name just 2. But what's to stop someone from programming more games with that unique control environment? Or to "fix" home conversion games like Missile Command (analog control + a fire button for each base as Crom intended)?

 

I mean, honestly, how many more 8-way digital joystick single-button games can people make? They're all versions of other games we already have. That was already a problem with arcade games in the '80s, why else would someone make a Star Wars (yoke) or Major Havoc (roller) or Robotron (dual joysticks) game? Or multi-button games like Defender or Star Trek? Multiple buttons and analog control could really open up the possibilities for new games. And that's just waiting for that analog joystick to appear. Nobody is going to code a game that needs a multi-button analog joystick before the joystick exists. And, if we're just talking about Atari 8-bit computers, this would make the games easier to convert to the 5200 as well. Win-win.

[Synthpopalooza]

Found this:

 

http://atariage.com/...ad#entry2759870

 

Instructions on how to mod a Genesis controller so that all the buttons (A, B, C, and start) are readable on the 2600, XL/XE. 7800, or any other system that can read Atari joysticks. It also potentially works on 6-button controllers as well.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Synthpopalooza

[morelenmir]

Given that the wired 360 controller outputs to a standard USB connection wouldn't it be easier to build some kind of adapter between it and the Atari rather than starting from scratch. I would think you could probably pull something together using an Arduino and its usb add-on board? Would it be possible to encode the output the 360 gamepad is capable of sending to a form the atari could receive via the Arduino and then decode in software? How fast would the control data need to be sent? Perhaps you could use the inputs on the existing atari joystick jack as parralell data transfer lines to speed up this process somewhat.

[pixelmischief]

I don't understand the problem. I mean, yes, you're right in that the new multi-button joystick wouldn't work with existing software that wasn't programmed for it. So what. That only matters if in order to acquire the new multi-button joystick you would be forced to get rid of all your other controllers. But nobody is suggesting that you're only allowed to own one controller, right? I have analog and digital joysticks, paddles, driving controllers, trak-balls, keypads, it doesn't matter to me that I can't use every controller with every game so long as I have the right controller for whatever game I'm playing.

I never minded having a controller dedicate to only one or a few games, if the game(s) are really great. Arkanoid on the NES, Ace Combat 5 and Tekken 5 on the PS2 all some to mind. The problem is that without a game already developed to take advantage of the hardware, incentive becomes really scarce; either to develop or to buy.

 

Seriously, if you own an Atari 2600 are you going to refuse to buy Indy 500 because it doesn't use a controller you already own even though it comes with the correct, unique controllers needed to play that game? Or what about Star Raiders that comes with a keypad?

Supporting my point, those were great titles that came with the perfect controller. What if someone had come to you back then and said, "Hey, buy this numeric keypad. There isn't any software that uses it yet, but it's coming." You would have said, "Well, let's see how the software is and then maybe I'll buy the controller." And you would have been right.

 

If you make a new multi-button joystick and also make a great game for it and then another great game for it then you will hopefully generate popularity for it and get other programmers to write games for it. Maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't, but it absolutely won't happen if you don't offer the new joystick in the first place.

Again to the point. If you made the software that incentivised the hardware, you'd have a shot at inspiring a new paradigm by example. But if you didn't, you'd likely have a loss. Software sells hardware, not the other way around. As an example, I give you the VBXE. This thing is brilliant. It gives the 8-Bit Atari graphics power at the 16-Bit console level. But since almost no software has been written to take advantage of it, it doesn't sell very well. As a counter-point, look at the My-IDEII. With it's SpartaDOS driver and software flasher, it's a nearly "plug-and-play" solution. It sells quite well, I believe.

 

In closing, I have no intention to squash anyone's enthusiasm over a multi-button gamepad for the Atari-8. I'm merely suggesting that for a vastly lesser bit of effort, one could create and enhancement to the current controller that would be immediately useful to literally hundreds, maybe thousands of games.

[ApolloBoy]

Nintendo got it right doing a joystick with 2 buttons

That's a third-party joystick, the original Famicom had two hardwired gamepads and Nintendo never even released a joystick for the Famicom. They did release the NES Advantage but that wasn't even engineered by them.

[ledzep]

I never minded having a controller dedicate to only one or a few games, if the game(s) are really great. Arkanoid on the NES, Ace Combat 5 and Tekken 5 on the PS2 all some to mind. The problem is that without a game already developed to take advantage of the hardware, incentive becomes really scarce; either to develop or to buy.

 

Quite, that's why I first suggested that whoever made the joystick should also make a (really good) game to go along with it sort of like what Fury Unlimited offered at one point with a Vectrex game (Hellhole + a custom spinner controller). And sell the joystick separately later after a second game is made. I know I'd buy both.

[TMR]

If you make a new multi-button joystick and also make a great game for it and then another great game for it then you will hopefully generate popularity for it and get other programmers to write games for it.

 

 

 

Say someone comes along with a two button and/or analog joystick and there's one great game shipped with it (assuming somebody capable of producing a great game can also be persuaded to get on board in the first place), what incentive is there for other programmers to then come along and support this new standard? In most cases, the motivation behind programming an 8-bit is to get people playing the games so why would someone with that motive tie what they're writing exclusively to a device with a handful of users and lock out the majority of people? And if they don't lock people in like that and only optionally support it, how many joysticks will that software support sell since regular ones can be used?

 

 

 

Maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't, but it absolutely won't happen if you don't offer the new joystick in the first place.

 

A question springs to mind; "if you make a new multi-button joystick", "if you don't offer", "if they don't like your price or how your joystick looks"... why aren't they saying "if I make" or "if I don't offer"?

[+Stephen]

There's already an adapter that lets a Nintendo Wii (and I believe even the "nunchuck") work on the 8-bits. Cool idea, but I despise the Wii controller. A similar convertor for the 360 would be awesome.

[Irgendwer]

A similar convertor for the 360 would be awesome.

 

This is on my 'to do' since 3 years. The successor of the CMI08 should not only support USB mice but also USB controllers. But every year I'm not able to develop such interface due to lack of time I have to adapt the name: CCI10, CCI11, CCI12, CCI13...

Hopefully I manage to build a CCI14...

First game to patch would be 'Dropzone' - as I always felt 'Cloaking' and 'Smart-bombing' by keyboard too uncomfortable.

[ledzep]

Say someone comes along with a two button and/or analog joystick and there's one great game shipped with it (assuming somebody capable of producing a great game can also be persuaded to get on board in the first place), what incentive is there for other programmers to then come along and support this new standard? In most cases, the motivation behind programming an 8-bit is to get people playing the games so why would someone with that motive tie what they're writing exclusively to a device with a handful of users and lock out the majority of people? And if they don't lock people in like that and only optionally support it, how many joysticks will that software support sell since regular ones can be used?

 

Well, I'm not sure why you ask the question since that's the current climate - how many homebrew games do you see written for driving controllers or trak-balls? Or even paddles? If it's the first game a homebrewist codes I would expect him to code it for a joystick and for the most popular console(s) out there. That isn't really the Atari 8-bit computers in the first place, that's more the Atari 2600, the Vectrex, the 7800, even the 5200 and the Colecovision or Intellivision or whatever, right? It's rare to see announcements on this site for new Atari computer carts being made (the few that are tend to be conversions of previously-released 5200 games) so why own an 8-bit computer for games in the first place? For most of us it's nostalgia, not need.

 

On the other hand, I've seen comments on the 5200 Tempest game (boxed with manual, no less) thread from people who say that now they'll finally have to buy a 5200 in order to play Tempest. That's not a controller, that's the whole damn console. Why? For one game. Now, sure, that's not hundreds or thousands of buyers or users, no. But it's something.

 

Nobody is going to quit his day job to code games for Atari 8-bit computers. Anyone that dumb can't code in the first place. This is a hobby and, beyond that, a way to brag about having actually created a homebrew game that people like (I hope to one day). If you're lucky you pull off a 2600 Star Castle where people are drooling to own one. Otherwise it's a new 2600 game or something else. But it's still cool, it's still something that some people want. But there are lots of homebrew programmers out there now, for many systems. What's the next step up? The guy who successfully puts out a new controller that people want. And not just some reshaped joystick that works just like previous joysticks, a new controller... and a game, because who wants to just stare at a controller all day?

 

I'm one of those people who searched eBay for a 2600 Omega Race in a box so that I could also have the special controller it came with. We're out there. You won't get rich off of us, but we will buy something cool like that. Now, you could use that game as the perfect example of why a new controller won't work because who has written another game that uses the Omega Race controller? Well, nobody has. But the counter to that is that the Omega Race controller isn't currently and easily available. If it was, who knows. I also searched eBay for a boxed 8-bit computer version of Robotron so that I could have that plastic holder for the required 2 joysticks. There are some things besides the games themselves that are worth collecting and really helpful for certain games.

 

The right game will make people want the new controller and that will open the possibility for more games for that controller. And it wouldn't be new, crazy code, either. From what I can see it would just be paddle inputs and joystick inputs, things that are well-known.

 

A question springs to mind; "if you make a new multi-button joystick", "if you don't offer", "if they don't like your price or how your joystick looks"... why aren't they saying "if I make" or "if I don't offer"?

 

Well, in my case, it's because I don't have the ability to make new controllers and sell them. I use "you" in the plural sense or the hypothetical person sense (because I hate how Elizabethan it sounds to write "...one would hope that..."). I was hoping to reach a current homebrew vet who was thinking of the next thing to do and who maybe wanted to do something more than code a game that's a mash-up of two other games. I mean, I bought a couple of those re-worked 2600 Adventure sequel games. I don't think I'm in the mood to buy any more, how many versions of Adventure does one person need?

 

But I'm no expert when it comes to the homebrew scene, anyway. I mean I watched as the first few 5200 Tempest games were released and the game testers complained that the trak-ball code was off and made it impossible to move slowly around the Tempest levels. But then someone else released an update from Atari from way back that explained how to initialize the trak-ball and everything was fixed once that bit of code was included. I was sure that once that happened we would see a modded Crystal Castles for the 5200 with trak-ball support (as Crom intended). But that hasn't happened, so much for my predictions.

[TMR]

That isn't really the Atari 8-bit computers in the first place, that's more the Atari 2600, the Vectrex, the 7800, even the 5200 and the Colecovision or Intellivision or whatever, right?

 

That depends on how you define "homebrew" really, for some it's all about a physical cartridge but the more common use of the term these days is almost interchangeable with "indie" and it was always diluted on the computers anyway because publishing for them doesn't necessarily involve burning an EPROM. It varies from year to year, but in those more open contexts the Atari 8-bit series pretty much holds it's own for releases.

 

But there are lots of homebrew programmers out there now, for many systems. What's the next step up? The guy who successfully puts out a new controller that people want. And not just some reshaped joystick that works just like previous joysticks, a new controller... and a game, because who wants to just stare at a controller all day?

 

Most of these homebrewers are programmers rather than hardware people and reliant on others to build the cartridges or indeed sell them, so going from writing a game to building a joystick isn't necessarily a step they can take. That means the project requires a team of people rather than just one guy and teams need a project manager to keep everybody pulling in the same direction; leave programmers alone too long and they'll wander off and do something else!

 

I'm one of those people who searched eBay for a 2600 Omega Race in a box so that I could also have the special controller it came with. We're out there. You won't get rich off of us, but we will buy something cool like that.

 

How can a programmer write games for a controller they don't have and can't emulate...? Yes, there's probably nothing to make reading the input difficult but it'd be impossible to tune the playability without taking how the hardware responds into consideration even if something similar could be found.

 

Well, in my case, it's because I don't have the ability to make new controllers and sell them. I use "you" in the plural sense or the hypothetical person sense (because I hate how Elizabethan it sounds to write "...one would hope that...").

 

Well, it'd work just as well to say "somebody could" rather than "you could", but the point i was making was about projects needing a manager and who picks up that responsibility; it doesn't fall to the programmers or hardware people because, even if they get on board for the general idea, there's absolutely no guarantee the results will be what you or anyone else is looking for if they're left to their own devices (as it were).

[ledzep]

Agreed. Half the problems are solved by having the person who programs the game also be the one who makes the controller. But I know there are teams out there already, I remember someone in the 5200 world who tends to do the music and other bits for a game programmer. I'm just sayin', it has happened before (Fury Unlimited making Hellhole + the spinner controller), no reason to believe it can't happen again or only he is capable of the feat. But it's not just on the programmer/hardware guy, it's also on the consumers to but the new joystick and the game(s) for it. Especially any of those people (me included) who have ever said "It sucks that there were never multi-button joysticks for the Atari computers." Maybe it didn't happen because Atari knew people would want those joysticks but wouldn't actually buy them, they expected to get them for free or for $5.

[pixelmischief]

Agreed. Half the problems are solved by having the person who programs the game also be the one who makes the controller. But I know there are teams out there already,

 

Candle and FJC would knock this out of the park, especially with a little support from the usual suspects; Rybags, Rdea, Bob, etc. You know who you are. Give the man a multibutton gamepad and an amazing game and be done with it already! =)

[TMR]

Agreed. Half the problems are solved by having the person who programs the game also be the one who makes the controller. But I know there are teams out there already, I remember someone in the 5200 world who tends to do the music and other bits for a game programmer. I'm just sayin', it has happened before (Fury Unlimited making Hellhole + the spinner controller), no reason to believe it can't happen again or only he is capable of the feat.

 

i'm not saying that's the case either of course. But the more people there are on a project the harder it becomes to keep the focus and the bare minimum for something like this with the goal of producing a "great game" is at least four people (one hardware, one coder who does graphics, one musician and someone to keep everyone else focused) and even then a few planets have to be aligned for it to go anywhere.

 

But it's not just on the programmer/hardware guy, it's also on the consumers to but the new joystick and the game(s) for it. Especially any of those people (me included) who have ever said "It sucks that there were never multi-button joysticks for the Atari computers."

 

Less so though; their role doesn't really start until later when they need to decide if they want to support something if it actually appears or, if a Kickstarter project is spun up, how much to put into the pot. All of the decisions about analog or digital control, what kind of game is going to be written first, if the hardware is new or re-purposed existing kit and so on, those will already have been made by that point.

 

Maybe it didn't happen because Atari knew people would want those joysticks but wouldn't actually buy them, they expected to get them for free or for $5.

 

It's more likely because Atari saw that, once a machine was released, the standard it used was hard to break away from. They made that decision without having the hindsight we've got as well.

[atarian63]

There's already an adapter that lets a Nintendo Wii (and I believe even the "nunchuck") work on the 8-bits. Cool idea, but I despise the Wii controller. A similar convertor for the 360 would be awesome.

Could not agree less. I cannot stand the 360 controller.

[pixelmischief]

It's more likely because Atari saw that, once a machine was released, the standard it used was hard to break away from. They made that decision without having the hindsight we've got as well.

 

Given that they were still licking their wounds over the 5200 failure - of which the controller was a major component - it's easy to understand their reluctance to make that mistake again. I suppose the restraint they showed in that case merely built up their desire to fail in truly epic fashion with the Jaguar controller.

[+Stephen]

Could not agree less. I cannot stand the 360 controller.

Can you imagine a design session (by committee) for this multi-button controller? I'm sure it would go smoothly:)

 

Do you like the Playstation Dual Analog style controllers?

[ledzep]

Less so though; their role doesn't really start until later when they need to decide if they want to support something if it actually appears or, if a Kickstarter project is spun up, how much to put into the pot. All of the decisions about analog or digital control, what kind of game is going to be written first, if the hardware is new or re-purposed existing kit and so on, those will already have been made by that point.

 

My preference (if it hasn't been obvious up to now) is for an analog joystick since the Atari 8-bits (and 2600) don't have one yet and because it would be straightforward to program for (paddle inputs), nothing new would have to be created for the joystick inputs or the built-in ROM. We already have loads of digital sticks to choose from and, at least for the 8-bit computers, all the fire buttons we could wish for with the keyboard. Some games would just work better with analog control. Now, you can kind of fake that using a trak-ball but it's not the same (playing 5200 Tempest with the trak-ball is better than the analog sticks but that game needs a spinner) and I think an analog stick would be cool and interesting to have in addition to the other 9-pin controllers available, especially if it came with extra buttons.

 

An analog stick would also allow for certain new types of games to be created that can't with digital sticks. The easiest example is Tail Gunner from Cinematronics but not necessarily as simple as that. Yoke games like Star Wars, too, they are terrible with digital joysticks.

[+Stephen]

Yes - we could then have the proper version of Star Raiders that the 5200 received

[Lynxpro]

Given that they were still licking their wounds over the 5200 failure - of which the controller was a major component - it's easy to understand their reluctance to make that mistake again. I suppose the restraint they showed in that case merely built up their desire to fail in truly epic fashion with the Jaguar controller.

 

The Jaguar controller was awesome. However, the Pro version should've been the only one they released.

[ledzep]

Yes - we could then have the proper version of Star Raiders that the 5200 received

 

Exactly. I always scored higher with the 5200 version of Star Raiders. I'm not sure how much of that was due to the analog controls and how much was due to having all the commands on the keypad vs. having to reach out to type on a computer keyboard but I always preferred the 5200 version. The analog joystick really shone there. I would think that any first person perspective shooting game would benefit from an analog joystick because if you're aiming a pistol or rifle or mounted weapon it's possible to move it slowly or sweep it around really quickly and you can't do that in a game with a digital stick that only reads direction, not speed.

 

I wonder how hard it would be to program a first person sword fighting game where the analog joystick actually controls direction and speed of sword strikes and parries. I don't think I've ever seen that. You could have the different buttons alter the orientation of the sword (aimed down, aimed sideways, aimed up, etc.) or raise a shield or something.

[pixelmischief]

The Jaguar controller was awesome. However, the Pro version should've been the only one they released.

 

Every time someone likes a Jaguar controller, God kills a bag of kittens.

[high voltage]

That's a third-party joystick, the original Famicom had two hardwired gamepads and Nintendo never even released a joystick for the Famicom. They did release the NES Advantage but that wasn't even engineered by them.

 

Hm the book says original Nintendo joystick, and connection to console is the Expansion port.

Edited July 16, 2013 by high voltage

[ledzep]

Looking around for analog joysticks I've noticed a few for Apple ][s and PCs that seem to have multiple buttons (Kraft, CH). Has anyone who owned one of those Apple analog joysticks ever opened one of them up? I'm curious if they're dual potentiometers like Atari 5200 sticks and Vectrex sticks and also what their ohm values are. Could be that they could be rewired to plug into Atari 9-pin ports if the values are close to paddle POTs (1M ohm, I think) or maybe the POTs are standard size and can be swapped out? Worth a shot.

[oky2000]

On the A8 you have a keyboard so for most game types multiple button controllers are not essential although think how awesome ROF would be if you map the various functions to a 6 button Sega Genesis/Megadrive pad?

 

A three button controller is probably simple by setting the POT-X / POT-Y values from 0% to 100% states and then you just check whether the value is >75% max I guess. Might be worth trying to adapt a good joypad with 3 buttons for various 8 bit machines that use the same wiring for POT-X / POT-Y etc even if it is to write simple games. Publishing your design specs as open source may help the idea spread.

 

As bad as the ST/Amiga versions of SF 2 were they were made 100% worse by trying to cram in everything to an Atari 2600 single button joystick model to execute all 220 million combinations etc!