Was there a personal computer market crash (or correction) in the mid 80s

[Seob]

One interesting point is this was a time when the Asian producers fell flat on there faces, they had the television, Hi-Fi & Video markets but the computer was one area they never did master over here. Loads of machines did launch from both Japan and Hong Kong, but not a one made any kind of impact. If fact most of them are really rare today over here.

Examples:

 

Color Genie.

SORD M5.

Sharp MZ 700.

LASER 200.

COMX 35.

 

Also the MSX pretty much sank without a trace, despite Sanyo, Sony and even Philips producing the hardware.

The Mattel Aquarius, a Hong Kong design also disappeared without a trace too.

 

http://www.acornelectron.co.uk/mags/hcw/ills/017/lc-p022.jpg

 

2 of the HK machines are discussed here pre launch.

Depends on what European country you're talking.

The Spectrum did sell great in the UK, but wasn't a big winner over here in the Netherlands. Here the MSX had a very big market, First or second in sales with the c64. But in Germany the MSX almost didn't sell, while it was strong in Spain.

Fact you cannot compare the European market with the US market. It is way different. Here manufactures have to rewrite a manual in a lot of different languages if they want to put a product on the market. While they can use a single languages to market a computer in the US. Both are about the same size in square miles.

So not every manufacturer wanted to invest that much money on the market.

[kiwilove]

I do remember seeing an advert for the Sharp computer but couldn't find any reviews of it, at the time. Being graphics orientated and wanting nice coin-op conversions on a home computer - the Atari 400/800 computers were the only computers that could interest me enough to want to buy one - and there was only Star Raiders to really showcase it - which I purchased alongside Pac Man and Shamus. About 6 months after I purchased an Atari 800, the C-64 did turn up - but I can't recall any early games showing what it was capable of.

One games machine that failed to take the world by storm, was the 3DO - and it was good to see what this was capable of. But anyone purchasing this expensive console, would have had it eclipsed by the Playstation and Saturn - a short time later. Timing is crucial in this quickly changing technological market - that you can remain ahead in the competition for some time.

It can take someone - say about a year to learn assembly language, and about a year to write their first proper game (in which you cannot expect too much in their first full blown effort - they would have written smaller test games prior to this, which would be very very simple games as such) - and it is their second proper game, that you could expect them to show what expertise they have developed? And this second game could easily take 2? years to complete - and you're lucky to have a computer system (in the hectic 80s') still going strong in the meantime. Not anyone can learn assembly language easily or become a programmer - of course it'll take talent, skill and lots of hard work.

 

Harvey

[JamesD]

One interesting point is this was a time when the Asian producers fell flat on there faces, they had the television, Hi-Fi & Video markets but the computer was one area they never did master over here. Loads of machines did launch from both Japan and Hong Kong, but not a one made any kind of impact. If fact most of them are really rare today over here.

Examples:

 

Color Genie.

SORD M5.

Sharp MZ 700.

LASER 200.

COMX 35.

 

Also the MSX pretty much sank without a trace, despite Sanyo, Sony and even Philips producing the hardware.

The Mattel Aquarius, a Hong Kong design also disappeared without a trace too.

 

http://www.acornelectron.co.uk/mags/hcw/ills/017/lc-p022.jpg

 

2 of the HK machines are discussed here pre launch.

The US didn't have any of those machines except the Laser 200 which was called the VZ200 in the US.

I have 2 US NTSC VZ200 machines so I know they sold a few but I think it was only through C.O.M.B. mailorder. Pretty much a liquidation type of thing.

 

The US also had a few Panasonic JR-200s and NEC Treks. I think the Aquarius actually sold better and it was pretty much a flop. The first 2 machines were successful in Japan though and the NEC actually spawned a very popular series of machines in Japan. NEC also sold some CP/M machines in the US and I actually saw those at a local dealer but it still had limited success.

 

Surprisingly enough, the VZ200 is probably the only machine on that list besides the MSX that saw any real success outside Japan.

The VZ200 was more of a 1979-1980 machine rather than a 1983 machine and the limited graphics RAM made it even more limited for that time so it was an unlikely candidate.

The VZ200 and VZ300 sold several hundred thousand machines in Australia. I'd guess largely do to few cheap machines there to compete with at the time of it's intro and distribution through Dick Smith Electronics stores. I think it had a small following in parts of Europe but it was pretty limited.

I'd guess worldwide they sold over 500,000 machines. Good numbers for the early personal computer years but not for the mid 80s.

Still, it and the Video Genie (both TRS-80 Model I based) encouraged VTech to stay in the worldwide computer market which lead to the Apple compatible Laser 128 machines which were reasonably successful in the US and became the basis of some of their learning computers. Learning computers are still a large market for them.

 

Ultimately, success of a machine like the VZ outside the US shows you that whatever was going on in the US wasn't a worldwide phenomenon.

I still think it was more of a correction and increased competition rather than a crash.

[am1933]

I can only speak from a UK perspective and personal experience, I think the market here reached a saturation point and when the initial boom period had passed the casual buyers interest had fallen away-leaving a smaller dedicated group of users who followed the upgrade path, this left too many companies and not enough consumers.

I also believe there was a great element who purchased a certain system just because their friends had one, I personall always found the more obscure or technologically advanced systems to be more attractive but here in the UK most peolple purchased a ZX Spectrum or a C64 purely from a kind of peer pressure point.

I do think that happened to a degree in the U.S also-but I don't think it was as pronounced.

 

As I say, this is as I saw it from my perspective-others probably have a vastly differing view.

[TMR]

I also believe there was a great element who purchased a certain system just because their friends had one, I personall always found the more obscure or technologically advanced systems to be more attractive but here in the UK most peolple purchased a ZX Spectrum or a C64 purely from a kind of peer pressure point.

No, it wasn't purely down to peer pressure; people would decide on which machine to have based on how much it cost (and many options were priced out of the home market in a recession-hit 1980s UK, the BBC Micro was never going to be in every home), what their friends had because that meant they could borrow or perhaps copy software and which machines appeared to have the best software support in local shops. That latter seems to have been crucial and machines like the Atari 8-bits did well in some locations around the UK because there were stores there acting as dealers but other machines barely got a Mastertronic-flavoured look in if they were lucky.

[am1933]

No, it wasn't purely down to peer pressure; people would decide on which machine to have based on how much it cost (and many options were priced out of the home market in a recession-hit 1980s UK, the BBC Micro was never going to be in every home), what their friends had because that meant they could borrow or perhaps copy software and which machines appeared to have the best software support in local shops. That latter seems to have been crucial and machines like the Atari 8-bits did well in some locations around the UK because there were stores there acting as dealers but other machines barely got a Mastertronic-flavoured look in if they were lucky.

I understand the point on price with regards to drawing comparisons with the Spectrum and BBC micro operating at distant ends of peoples budgets, but if price was indeed a major factor the C64 would never have established itself in the numbers it did, eg-Launch price £300, late 1983 £229, finally settling at about £200 then you would still need the C2N-by comparison an Atari 800XL would have been a similar price to the C64 at launch, down to £169 in 1984 then down to as little as £95 in 1985 including a 1010 recorder.

A similar story for the Amstrad machines which sold in huge numbers but still required an initial outlay of £230 to £330.

I do agree that software availability for certain platforms was a major factor though.

[carlsson]

How curious that the Atari 800XL would be so much cheaper than a C64 on the UK market, when the absolute opposite was true on the Swedish market! In both cases, the computers would be "imported" in the meaning a foreign company, manufactured outside of the own country. Either Atari UK did something the Swedish agent didn't, or the Swedish Commodore agent managed to get far better prices than Commodore UK did during those years.

[am1933]

How curious that the Atari 800XL would be so much cheaper than a C64 on the UK market, when the absolute opposite was true on the Swedish market! In both cases, the computers would be "imported" in the meaning a foreign company, manufactured outside of the own country. Either Atari UK did something the Swedish agent didn't, or the Swedish Commodore agent managed to get far better prices than Commodore UK did during those years.

I actually picked up an 800XL starter pack from a well nown department store complete with 1010,pole position and basic tutorial/demo for the sum of £94.99, this was around June/July 1985.

[carlsson]

Yeah, I'm not questioning your facts, just relating to them. Here is a document regarding the Swedish market I put together a few years ago. Unfortunately I didn't find prices later than November 1984 - January 1985.

http://www.cbm.sfks.se/tidning/datorpris.html

 

The list only contains computers, not peripherals but as far as I recall, in the summer of 1984 you could get a C64 + 1541 for the price of an Atari 800XL without any peripherals at all.

Edited January 12, 2014 by carlsson

[AtariLeaf]

I'm told that by 1990, most Brits had moved on to either the Amiga, the Master System, or the Genesis.

 

No NES? But. . . but. . . but. . . that's impossible!! If the interwebs have taught me anything, it's that the NES saved video games! Just as surely as ET caused the crash. My world is crumbling, it's all a lie. My idols have been slain. My god is a myth.

[TMR]

I understand the point on price with regards to drawing comparisons with the Spectrum and BBC micro operating at distant ends of peoples budgets, but if price was indeed a major factor the C64 would never have established itself in the numbers it did, eg-Launch price £300, late 1983 £229, finally settling at about £200

i didn't say it was the only factor, just a major one. The BBC Micro also had to deal with it's "school computer" badge as well which made it less popular than other 8-bits amongst kids so the more affluent parents would be less than gently pushed towards the C64.

 

by comparison an Atari 800XL would have been a similar price to the C64 at launch, down to £169 in 1984 then down to as little as £95 in 1985 including a 1010 recorder.

i got my 800XL off the back of seeing a friend's machine but trying to get software for it locally... no chance.

[am1933]

i didn't say it was the only factor, just a major one. The BBC Micro also had to deal with it's "school computer" badge as well which made it less popular than other 8-bits amongst kids so the more affluent parents would be less than gently pushed towards the C64.

 

 

i got my 800XL off the back of seeing a friend's machine but trying to get software for it locally... no chance.

Unlucky, I got software no problem, as well as several independants-several big chains were also stocking A8 software,eg- John Menzies, Boots, Lewis's, Lasky's and Virgin(who had a really big selection).

[TMR]

Unlucky, I got software no problem, as well as several independants-several big chains were also stocking A8 software,eg- John Menzies, Boots, Lewis's, Lasky's and Virgin(who had a really big selection).

It's a regional thing though, some parts of the UK had loads of support and others didn't; rural areas in particular sucked like a vacuum cleaner so my choices were limited and there weren't even magazines around for mail order adverts. That lack of software support meant less sales, so i only knew one other A8 owner until i started working with a couple after we'd all moved on to Amigas.

[high voltage]

i didn't say it was the only factor, just a major one. The BBC Micro also had to deal with it's "school computer" badge as well which made it less popular than other 8-bits amongst kids so the more affluent parents would be less than gently pushed towards the C64.

 

 

i got my 800XL off the back of seeing a friend's machine but trying to get software for it locally... no chance.

Maybe people didn't know that they could go into any computer shop or even WH Smith and they could order any Atari 8-bit game listed in the nationwide 'Software Link Chain' catalogue. In there A8 had quite a few pages, advertising disc, tape and cart softs to order.

I often went into WH Smith ordering VCS carts no less.

 

But I also never had any problems getting A8 softs from where I lived: In Bournemouth The Computer shop Parkstone, and later when I lived in Reading: The Computer Cavern (Hi Steve)

Edited January 13, 2014 by high voltage

[TMR]

Maybe people didn't know that they could go into any computer shop or even WH Smith and they could order any Atari 8-bit game listed in the nationwide 'Software Link Chain' catalogue. In there A8 had quite a few pages, advertising disc, tape and cart softs to order.

I often went into WH Smith ordering VCS carts no less.

And without review magazines to make an informed choice, it's a potentially expensive risk to take ordering blind from a catalogue... that's why i didn't do it personally. i didn't really have the piracy option either.

 

But I also never had any problems getting A8 softs from where I lived: In Bournemouth The Computer shop Parkstone, and later when I lived in Reading: The Computer Cavern (Hi Steve)

Like i said, it was regional.

[carlsson]

Perhaps you could have peeked at Commodore, Sinclair, Sega or Nintendo magazines to get a hunch what to expect from an otherwise unknown Atari 8-bit title, assuming those were multiformat titles of course. The exclusive ones would be harder to mail order if you had no idea, usually those also came from smaller publishers so you couldn't go on the big names.

 

Then again, I think we all have looked at the back side of various games, bought them and later figured out it was not at all what you expected, even screenshots from different systems so the games don't even visually compare.

[high voltage]

we had C&VG always rewieving A8 games then there was Atari User magazine, Page 6...,

[BSA Starfire]

The Atari console market must have been pretty strong here in the UK as we had the 2600 junior machines 2 years before they released in the USA.

[TMR]

we had C&VG always rewieving A8 games

i was never a fan of C&VG to be honest...

 

then there was Atari User magazine, Page 6...,

Again, not available everywhere. The only reason i even knew about Page 6 was from seeing their stand at a show and it was after i'd moved on to the C64.

[carlsson]

First you would have to mail order the magazines to read the reviews in order to mail order the games that look promising. :-) In that context, it isn't hard to imagine one going for a different type of computer, one which is available locally both in terms of hardware, software and literature.

[Rhomaios]

 

No NES? But. . . but. . . but. . . that's impossible!! If the interwebs have taught me anything, it's that the NES saved video games! Just as surely as ET caused the crash. My world is crumbling, it's all a lie. My idols have been slain. My god is a myth.

 

Did anyone who actually knew what they were talking about and not just parroting someone else actually ever think that anywhere but NA experienced the market crash? I've never seen anyone actually advancing the idea that EU or Japan experienced a console market crash. The Famicom was super popular in Japan, but I no one is saying that they saved gaming there either. Seems more of a strawman to me, even if a few kiddies spout nonsense here or there.

[Keatah]

It's just market forces and all that. If NES didn't get the title of "Saviour" another console would have. NES did nothing special.

[carlsson]

Indeed the Wikipedia article is called the "North American video game crash of 1983". After a brief study (*), it seems most of the home gaming in Japan was conducted on computers like NEC PC-8001, PC-8801, possibly Sharp MZ-80 series prior to the Famicom and SG-1000 were launched in the summer of 1983. Some Pong clones and imported Atari systems have been named, but if the majority of the gaming already happened on the computers that partially would outpower the consoles in America, the "crash" would barely go noticed. Actually, due to a bad chipset in the first generation Famicom, it took about a year for Nintendo to get a grip on the Japanese market so it was not like either video game console was a smash hit from day 1 at the very time that the American markets were dwindling.

 

I'm not entirely sure what to say about the situation here in Europe, but I don't think video games had as high percentage of the market from the start. Also it seems the home computers over here tended to be cheap low-end models so even those on a tight budget could afford one "instead" of a video game.

 

(*) http://gamestudies.org/1302/articles/picard

Edited January 14, 2014 by carlsson

[AtariLeaf]

 

Did anyone who actually knew what they were talking about and not just parroting someone else actually ever think that anywhere but NA experienced the market crash? I've never seen anyone actually advancing the idea that EU or Japan experienced a console market crash. The Famicom was super popular in Japan, but I no one is saying that they saved gaming there either. Seems more of a strawman to me, even if a few kiddies spout nonsense here or there.

 

That's exactly who my 'tongue-in-cheek' comment was directed to. I certainly hope you could tell I wasn't serious.

[carlsson]

The Nintendo Entertainment System is nothing to joke about!