atari8warez Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Lets say I agree with you (which we can pretend, I guess) His electricity costs money, right? I mean, he isn't riding a bicycle generator to power his computer (that we know of). To get to the post office, which to be fair, we have no idea how far that is for him, there are some people in very rural areas, I hear they even get electricity without the aforementioned bicycles. So he has to pay for gas, right? What does he do for a living? well, not terribly relevant, but asking a few bucks (and VERY FEW, if you ask me) for spending your "free" time doing something that it looks like is only going to get you yelled at, doesn't seem so bad. I understand that some of this stuff was released and the original authors asked not one cent for it. I hear you, I get it, no need to harp on it. but the fact of the matter is, if you released it for free already, how does it hurt you that some guy might make a few bucks off of it? you know what, in actuality, he isn't making a few bucks off of your work in particular, if we break it down, he is making tenths or hundredths or hell, maybe even thousandths of a cent off of it, because if you average out the content to the cost, that's the reality of it. Then, after receiving alot of grief, the poor guys says he will remove things if the authors are wound so tight they cant possibly handle "giving away" a fraction of a penny to someone, and he gets attacked by people who released things under a license they clearly do not even begin to understand. So no, he didn't respond to you. Shocking, I know. I am not gonna argue with you on the details. I think everybody made their points. To sum it up, the consensus is that it is not ethical to sell somebody else's work without asking first when those people are doing things for this community without any compensation for their hard work. My offer to seed a torrent is still valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThumpNugget Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) I agree with thumps point but its an awkward one over all, the factor of different in dev time is obviously crucial, no one wants current dev games being sold for cash and I fully support that unless its the devs etc getting the cash! However the collector in me wants to see the old stuff just in case so I can weed out any goodies to post I'm sure Atari Frog has the same mindset as me. Same here.. really only interested in the older stuff for history sake... I also had some programs that I uploaded to only one location (a local AMIS bulletin board "BUG") nothing overly exciting - A crappy pac-man clone called "Steal a kiss", a PC Pursuit scanner, a telnet (before it became Sprintnet) scanner, and a modem to modem checkers game that only worked on XM301 and 1030 modems that I was quite proud of and actually had Antic pay me for it just before they imploded. I lost it all going though a divorce.. All my disks with source code thrown out (she sold everything real cheap one day when she was upset about some odd thing). Anyway I always hold out hope that some disk will turn up somewhere with my own personal little buried treasure. I imagine there are hundreds or thousands of people that have done the same so there must be lots of one-offs out there. I hate to discount any disk that might contain some new nugget Edited November 15, 2013 by ThumpNugget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Thump I really hope they turn up for you, you lost them in a cruel way as was the way I lost mine. I hope he agrees to the FTP in the end, sad to see a collection held hostage sort of but we are all different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon375 Posted November 15, 2013 Author Share Posted November 15, 2013 What ever gave you the idea that I just "clicked" and downloaded any of this stuff? You make an assumption then ride my ass about it? This has gotten totally ridiculous. If the mods had locked the thread when I asked, then this flame-war would be over. There is only one person that has responded to this thread that even makes sense. So just stop. It has been a total waste of my time to even start this topic. I have already stated my position, so just take it or leave it. I dont feel I am in a position where I have to continually defend myself against all these assumptions. If it is so easy to just click and download this stuff, go do it, you dont need my copy. If you feel I am scamming on the back of somebody's hard work, good for you. I don't live or die on what you think anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Allan Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Same here.. really only interested in the older stuff for history sake... I also had some programs that I uploaded to only one location (a local AMIS bulletin board "BUG") nothing overly exciting - A crappy pac-man clone called "Steal a kiss", a PC Pursuit scanner, a telnet (before it became Sprintnet) scanner, and a modem to modem checkers game that only worked on XM301 and 1030 modems that I was quite proud of and actually had Antic pay me for it just before they imploded. I lost it all going though a divorce.. All my disks with source code thrown out (she sold everything real cheap one day when she was upset about some odd thing). Anyway I always hold out hope that some disk will turn up somewhere with my own personal little buried treasure. I imagine there are hundreds or thousands of people that have done the same so there must be lots of one-offs out there. I hate to discount any disk that might contain some new nugget That's why we need more people to post the disks from user groups back in the day. I see disk collections bought for a lot but then you never hear of them again. I know there are a number of people here on AA that have old disk collections and said they were going to post them but never did. We have to try to get more of them posted. The commercial stuff is safe with many people having copies of them. It's the public domain/user group programs that are in danger of being lost. Allan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThumpNugget Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 What ever gave you the idea that I just "clicked" and downloaded any of this stuff? You make an assumption then ride my ass about it? This has gotten totally ridiculous. If the mods had locked the thread when I asked, then this flame-war would be over. There is only one person that has responded to this thread that even makes sense. So just stop. It has been a total waste of my time to even start this topic. I have already stated my position, so just take it or leave it. I dont feel I am in a position where I have to continually defend myself against all these assumptions. If it is so easy to just click and download this stuff, go do it, you dont need my copy. If you feel I am scamming on the back of somebody's hard work, good for you. I don't live or die on what you think anyway. Are you still here? There is a difference between attacking and robust dialog.. As I said in my initial reply - I could care less how much you are selling it for. I think if you had stated your initial post in a little more community friendly terms and also put up (or worked with someone else to put up) a torrent so that there was a free option.. Well you would have had buyers from those not wanting to download 23 gigs and probably not much in the way of backlash. I agree with Allen - the PD stuff is really important as much of it appears to be in danger of being lost forever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 That's why we need more people to post the disks from user groups back in the day. I see disk collections bought for a lot but then you never hear of them again. I know there are a number of people here on AA that have old disk collections and said they were going to post them but never did. We have to try to get more of them posted. The commercial stuff is safe with many people having copies of them. It's the public domain/user group programs that are in danger of being lost. Allan The Holmes CD set has a lot of PD software, disc 3 has collections of ANALOG/ANTIC/APX/BELLCOM PD collection + many users group ATRs. The Holmes CDs are still available online and easy to find via a search engine. There is a site for Page 6 Magazine which includes a library of over 1000 Atari 8-bit ATR images. There is also the Homesoft collection, now over 400 ATR images. So a lot of software is still available for download if people know where to look(or at least what to search for) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchoolRetroGamer Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) What ever gave you the idea that I just "clicked" and downloaded any of this stuff? You make an assumption then ride my ass about it? This has gotten totally ridiculous. If the mods had locked the thread when I asked, then this flame-war would be over. There is only one person that has responded to this thread that even makes sense. So just stop. It has been a total waste of my time to even start this topic. I have already stated my position, so just take it or leave it. I dont feel I am in a position where I have to continually defend myself against all these assumptions. If it is so easy to just click and download this stuff, go do it, you dont need my copy. If you feel I am scamming on the back of somebody's hard work, good for you. I don't live or die on what you think anyway. Just a tip, instead of expecting the mods to be at your beck and call to close this thread just because it has not gone the way you had hoped simply stay out of it. HAVE YOU EVEN REPORTED THIS THREAD or attempted to contact a mod/admin with your grievance? They are not always floating around every thread 24/7 waiting for the magical command to close it. Threads are not locked simply by request (unless warranted) and sometimes they take on a different direction that interest others (whether or not you agree) so you are dragging it on just as much as anyone. It is not up to you to order people to just stop. Nobody is forcing you to continually defend yourself, if you honestly don't care what others think as you claim and if you believe your intentions were honest then simply move on, do not reply or keep monitoring this thread and the participants here can carry on happily without you, it's WIN - WIN ! Now that said, maybe a mod will close this at some point, maybe not, either way feel free to move on......... Edited November 15, 2013 by OldSchoolRetroGamer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 I am not gonna argue with you on the details. I think everybody made their points. To sum it up, the consensus is that it is not ethical to sell somebody else's work without asking first when those people are doing things for this community without any compensation for their hard work. My offer to seed a torrent is still valid. Let me fix this for you... the consensus is that it is not ethical to make money selling a product that includes other people's work if they catch you and complain. the consensus is that it is OK to use other people's work if they do not know you are doing it or do not care enough to create an account here and complain about it. I believe the principle is honor among thieves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) Lets say I agree with you (which we can pretend, I guess) His electricity costs money, right? I mean, he isn't riding a bicycle generator to power his computer (that we know of). To get to the post office, which to be fair, we have no idea how far that is for him, there are some people in very rural areas, I hear they even get electricity without the aforementioned bicycles. So he has to pay for gas, right? What does he do for a living? well, not terribly relevant, but asking a few bucks (and VERY FEW, if you ask me) for spending your "free" time doing something that it looks like is only going to get you yelled at, doesn't seem so bad. Blub. Fortunately it only cost me a few pence of mobile contract and electricity to digest that bit of rationalisation. And yet - oddly - I suddenly heed the urge to be compensated... never thought of charging for electricity used. Edited November 16, 2013 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Guitarman Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 That's why we need more people to post the disks from user groups back in the day. I see disk collections bought for a lot but then you never hear of them again. I know there are a number of people here on AA that have old disk collections and said they were going to post them but never did. We have to try to get more of them posted. The commercial stuff is safe with many people having copies of them. It's the public domain/user group programs that are in danger of being lost. Allan I am one of those!! LOL Though, when time permits, I do plan on archiving a couple user group libraries I have acquired. Also, there are probably some of the old site collections the OP is talking about that I may have. I do remember when a few of those sites were still online, downloading the site's archives (Jellystone, Closer To Home, Homesoft, Vjetnam, Atari Forever, Rohar, Paradise, Fornax, Univ. of Michigan, Yogi's FTP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I am one of those!! LOL Though, when time permits, I do plan on archiving a couple user group libraries I have acquired. Also, there are probably some of the old site collections the OP is talking about that I may have. I do remember when a few of those sites were still online, downloading the site's archives (Jellystone, Closer To Home, Homesoft, Vjetnam, Atari Forever, Rohar, Paradise, Fornax, Univ. of Michigan, Yogi's FTP). There are still websites for the Homesoft, Page 6 & Vjetnam collections. Atari Forever(at least ISOs of CDs 1/2/5/7/XL_XE), Holmes CDs 1/2/3, Rohar, Fornax, and University of Michigan collections are still online. I found all these archived on an FTP site. There are also many emulator/ROM sites that have a lot of Atari 8-bit software available as well. For example: http://www.freeroms.com/atari.htm http://www.emuparadise.me/Atari_8-bit_Family_ROMs/List-All-Titles/57 http://www.theoldcomputer.com/roms/index.php?folder=Atari So those who want to spend the time searching for and downloading the software still can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 The least I can do is to stop working on it, and it looks like this may be the best idea anyway. So, I do retract my request for not including AspeQt and my other GPL licensed software from the collection, apparently you can include them and sell it at whatever price you want. If this is true, I may have to check out Aspeqt after all, although I like APE just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 ... but it may just be time to move on. Indeed. Please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 All this stuff is readily available, already. Whether the original poster merely wanted "to share" or instead "to profit" is hard to say, without knowing the cost of the media, mailing, etc. Putting up a torrent is the way this stuff has been distributed in the past, and would work quite nicely here. It's not so much that the stuff isn't available, but he probably has a nice assembly of existing collections. A torrent would solve the problem. What is the objection, again? The Atari8 book and magazine collections went out this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) Blub. Fortunately it only cost me a few pence of mobile contract and electricity to digest that bit of rationalisation. And yet - oddly - I suddenly heed the urge to be compensated... never thought of charging for electricity used. Jon, if I were you I'd allow him to sell your GUI but send him a bill for the electricity you used while developing the code , some kind of rationalisation for sure!. I would have liked to do the same but I recently found out (to my chagrin) GPL wants software authors to die in starvation while entrepreneurs are getting fatter in the name of freedom Edited November 16, 2013 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Jon, if I were you I'd allow him to sell your GUI but send him a bill for the electricity you used while developing the code , some kind of rationalisation for sure!. I would have liked to do the same but I recently found out (to my chagrin) GPL wants software authors to die in starvation while entrepreneurs are getting fatter in the name of freedom Not to nitpick, but it turns out that the crucial step being missed here is to jump from software author to entrepreneur. Let me tell you its a scary step, and I was far to naive and trusting to not get burned the first couple of times I tried taking that big step. Usually one's world needs to be falling apart for proper motivation to take that step... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 May I join the appeal to lock / remove the thread, its rehashing old scores and both annoying people and pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnieg Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 May I join the appeal to lock / remove the thread, its rehashing old scores and both annoying people and pointless. I think some of the discussion is quite useful in particular around licences and permission to distribute although maybe this would be better in a pinned faq? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragos Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 The point here is, some people seem to think "their" work is special above others. They don't mind having pirated software in their collection, just as long as noone pirates (which is used very loosely here, since the authors already GIVE IT AWAY) their software. I would love to know what became of the "atari magazine archive" that i hear about from time to time. I always wondered why atari didn't have a collection of books and mags like the commodore guys do. Sounds like the shitty apple 2 "community" to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnieg Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 The GPL is designed to protect the user's freedom but also the original coder has chosen that license as it permits anyone to use that software as long as those rights are passed on. Money can be made from open source/ free software but it requires some thought. from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html . Home/Personal Computing is far worse for users with the amount of control Microsoft has, and as for a sucessful use of open source look at the foundations of Apple OS X “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community. Roughly, the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. With these freedoms, the users (both individually and collectively) control the program and what it does for them. When users don't control the program, the program controls the users. The developer controls the program, and through it controls the users. This nonfree or “proprietary” program is therefore an instrument of unjust power. Thus, “free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer”. A program is free software if the program's users have the four essential freedoms: The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this. A program is free software if users have all of these freedoms. Thus, you should be free to redistribute copies, either with or without modifications, either gratis or charging a fee for distribution, to anyone anywhere. Being free to do these things means (among other things) that you do not have to ask or pay for permission to do so. GPL wants software authors to die in starvation while entrepreneurs are getting fatter in the name of freedom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnieg Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) Covered quite well here with useful information http://www.worldofspectrum.org/permits/ As an example Notice that some copyright holders make a difference in distribution on CD and distribution on the Internet. For example, the Zenobi Software catalog is allowed to be distributed from WoS and The TZX Vault archives, but not on a CD. The point here is, some people seem to think "their" work is special above others. They don't mind having pirated software in their collection, just as long as noone pirates (which is used very loosely here, since the authors already GIVE IT AWAY) their software. Edited November 16, 2013 by barnieg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragos Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 your link does not cover things like Aspeqt. Noone seemed pissed about the old games, only the things they worked on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible kid Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) your link does not cover things like Aspeqt. Noone seemed pissed about the old games, only the things they worked on... AFAIK, software that is under gpl licence can be redistributed for free or for a fee, but you either have to include the source code on the medium(original + any modifications) or have it easily obtainable. Edited November 16, 2013 by invisible kid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnieg Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) Aspeqt is GPL - the issue is redistribution is fairly clear with GPL license. If you use GPL software based on someone else's work you can use it in your own work as long as you follow the GPL, if this is not compatible with your goals don't use the GPL software in the first place, simples What is of concern is new or recent software, essentially if something has a license follow (and respect) the license, if it doesn't don't assume you can redistribute it without contacting the coder(s). If something is free to download that doesn't mean its free to download and resell/redistribute for a profit. your link does not cover things like Aspeqt. Noone seemed pissed about the old games, only the things they worked on... Edited November 16, 2013 by barnieg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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