no Qix for the 7800?

[Rhomaios]

What's wrong with the NES version? Personally, I'd love to see more original titles like Bentley Bear for the 7800 XM, or even spiffified 2600 games for near-arcade-perfect accuracy. Qix really doesn't belong on a line-up for the 7800 XM, although, again, just my personal opinion.

[Jinks]

Jaynz. Who said Bob or anyone is making this game? Also publicly paying him off 100.00 to do it your way without xm to make a point is really mature..

I dont think Bob makes his games for profits. I think he must really like programming and sharing his creations with us. And every one of us is totally thankful for whatever kinda game he wants to make.

 

Also I dont get the hate for the XM.. and clearly that what it is. Dont try to hide it.

You guys trash on that opcode guy for the colecovision XM he made? And complain about the games he makes? Is this not the same kinda deal?

I guess I am not a real classic collector purist etc person..

I myself are obviously in the boat of every 7800s top should never see the light of day. Only be perpetually XM teabagged.

[Trebor]

The difference is that Nintendo didn't require you to buy an add-on for all those games. As I said, the XM may be glorious, but few of even us HERE are going to have one, much less the 7800 base. I would hate to see a fairly basic game like Qix get bumped up out what I would think as 'reasonable' when the XM should probably be looked at more like the 'super mode games' or extended adventures, etc. (In my opinion.)

I understand the difference.

 

As I stated in my reply, "Nintendo did what the XM does on a cart-by-cart basis". The 7800 has all the XM hardware contained in a single unit, the NES had the 'XM-like' hardware pieces as needed in individual cartridges. My response was not in understanding the difference but rather in reply to the statement that the XM makes the 7800 trying to be something it is not.

 

I agree that the XM should showcase "super mode games". That is kind of the point. Atari back in the 7800 original release timeline was short-changed of hardware and investing that should have been put into the game cartridges. Just like Nintendo did with investing in "XM-like" hardware for their cartridges, Atari should have done the same.

 

But they didn't and here we are in present time.

 

My position is more along the lines of: Should games be created that maximize the full potential of the 7800 in the same manner other systems of its time had done for them, or should we stick to limiting it to fit into a similar mold that was part of the system's ultimate demise? I think maximize full potential should be the key. Additionally though, I support any development and new things for the 7800. This includes reproduction of a game I already have boxed in near mint quality.

 

I would absolutely love to see two versions of new games released (when applicable and possible): First and foremost, maximized to take full advantage of the POKEY or Yamaha sound chip, high score saving support, and extra memory = XM required. Second, a "light" or to somewhat borrow from Beef Drop, a "value edition" of the game. TIA default sound, no high score saving and other stripped down features (Level size, smaller/uglier graphics, etc. - if necessary).

 

In my humble opinion it is easier to just cut to the chase and say, "I really only want to see "this" game if all hardware is contained within the individual cart to allow at the very least some sound (Even if inferior) and of course video". It's more to the point and upfront then claims that the 7800 is trying to be something it isn't or that it is not a 7800 game if it requires the XM.

 

What's odd is that including it all inside the cartridge is more the 'NES-way' than what has been done for the Atari 7800. Having a central external unit with a one-time purchase of the hardware is more of the 'Atari 7800-way' of doing things. Putting all hardware required for each game in every individual cart is the NES way of doing it.

 

I appreciate everyone's opinion and the other side of the XM coin where 'excitement' is being utilized, it would be less than honest to say there isn't a little 'resentment' from the other side of the camp, so to speak. Regardless, love to see the passion and interest for the 7800.

 

My take is for all new 7800 releases to be maximized to the fullest audio, video and features possible - the absolute best presentation and if it means 'XM required', so be it. I completely respect though the other side which just wants to make sure a full completed version of the game with some sort of sound and video or an all inclusive of additional hardware in each individual cartridge. However, I don't want to see a game crippled or limited when that doesn't have to be the case. If there is the XM required version or a TIA/stripped down as the two options, and you can't have both, then I rather see 'XM required' developed.

 

Somewhere, and again, I believe was already seen this to some extent with Froggie and Beef Drop, there is a happy medium (If possible).

 

We can all agree (Or at least I hope we can) that any sort of game development on the 7800 is great to see.

 

Oh and Jaynz - $100 donation really with no other purchase included?

Hope that isn't perceived as paying for Bob's time on the game...I think that covers the range for about 1/500th to 1/100th of total hours spent at best

[CPUWIZ]

XM = 32X, a cart is a cart, I must agree. I don't think it has anything to do with hating the XM, ZylonBane is just being his regular pain in the ass.

 

I can totally see someone pull this off with my new 256K + 16K RAM board.

[Jaynz]

Going to try to reply to a few here, but the editor is working against me. Please bear with:

 

Originally from Jinks

>> Jaynz. Who said Bob or anyone is making this game?

 

That would be Bob himself, actually.

Edit: Okay, I'm wrong on this one. I misread a post. My apologies here.

 

>> Also publicly paying him off 100.00 to do it your way without xm to make a point is really mature..

 

It's a public challenge for a prize, or a bribe. I honestly believe I have the math down that this can work and be excellent without the required ram addition for the XM. I do not, sadly, have Atari programming experience under my belt to pull it off (my recent work is mostly C or C++). Bob is an amazing programmer, and honestly I just want to support him even though I do most of my 7800 gaming in emulation these days and therefore won't be needing carts for awhile.

 

>> I don't think Bob makes his games for profits. I think he must really like programming and sharing his creations with us. And every one of us is totally thankful for whatever kinda game he wants to make.

 

I don't think I EVER gave the impression that Bob wasn't an incredibly talented programmer and designer. The man simply amazes me.

 

>> Also I dont get the hate for the XM.. and clearly that what it is. Don't try to hide it.

 

I just don't think the XM is appropriate for a game that's as relatively simple as Qix. Pitfall II? Sure. Gauntlet, more than likely. Ys Collection? Absolutely. Qix? Not really. It's not going to benefit much from the XM, and it's not a strong enough game to attract people TO the XM. I don't feel that it's a good fit. Simple as that.

 

>> You guys trash on that opcode guy for the colecovision XM he made? And complain about the games he makes? Is this not the same kinda deal?

 

Who's trashing on the XM? I'm just more concerned that there's going to be a 'movement' once the XM comes out that the scene here will be 'all XM, all the time', which will royally screw over people who DON'T have the XM, and won't be able to get it due to price and limited numbers. So reserve the XM titles to 'super' versions of games, or exceptionally large games for the 7800 experience. Smaller straight arcade ports? I just don't see it as wise or conducive to the 7800 scene.

 

Originally from Trebor

>> My position is more along the lines of: Should games be created that maximize the full potential of the 7800 in the same manner other systems of its time had done for them, or should we stick to the limiting it to fit into a similar mold that was part of the system's ultimate demise? I think maximize full potential should be the key. Additionally though, I support any development and new things for the 7800. This includes reproduction of a game I already have boxed in near mint quality.

 

Like I said, the reality is (or WAS, get to that in a minute) that it's either going to be an XM or a recycled 7800 common cart. If that's the choice, and it can be a painful one, then I would put THIS particular game as a regular 7800 cart if at all possible. Again, I explained my thinking on this above... I'm a believer that someone's work should get as much coverage as possible.

 

>> In my humble opinion it is easier to just cut to the chase and say, "I really only want to see "this" game if all hardware is contained within the individual cart to allow at the very least some sound (Even if inferior) and of course video". It's more to the point and upfront then claims that the 7800 is trying to be something it isn't or that it is not a 7800 game if it requires the XM.

 

I see a lot of the XM's buzz in various threads about making it a 'newer, bigger, stronger' system... like a super-system. That's not new to the classic scene either, of course, but it DOES create problems within the already-small fan base. I would RATHER see an NES approach (or, Commando approach if you prefer) to extending RAM if possible... but, for the most part, we're limited in that option to existing carts. (Again, more on that below.)

 

>> Somewhere, and again, I believe was already seen this to some extent with Froggie and Beef Drop, there is a happy medium.

 

Like I said, throw the POKEY option on the cart along with the HSC code. Take advantage of the features if they're present... but don't make the game strictly /require/ the XM just to be played.

 

>> We can all agree (Or at least hope) that any sort of game development on the 7800 is great to see.

 

Absolutely!

 

>> Oh and Jaynz - $100 donation really with no other purchase included? Hope that isn't perceived as paying for Bob's time on the game. I think that covers about 1/100th of total hours spent at best

 

As a game developer... even in my prime I don't think I was /that/ fast. No, this is just incentive and a way to support Bob's efforts. (I really don't see how someone could take offense to the challenge...)

 

Originally from CPUWIZ

>> I can totally see someone pull this off with my new 256K + 16K RAM board.

 

And this may be a very practical solution to the whole problem. If Bob can't squeeze the field down and have it look right, then this new homebrew-friendly card sounds like a very good alternate option. No XM required and solves the most painful of the 7800s limitations.. that 4K ram limit. (Seriously, Atari, 4K? In 1983?!)

Edited December 12, 2013 by Jaynz

[Trebor]

I can totally see someone pull this off with my new 256K + 16K RAM board.

WOO-HOO! Sweet.

[Trebor]

Who's trashing on the XM? I'm just more concerned that there's going to be a 'movement' once the XM comes out that the scene here will be 'all XM, all the time', which will royally screw over people who DON'T have the XM, and won't be able to get it due to price and limited numbers. So reserve the XM titles to 'super' versions of games, or exceptionally large games for the 7800 experience. Smaller straight arcade ports? I just don't see it as wise or conducive to the 7800 scene.

"Price", really? To assist in affording an XM the advice is to set aside $1 a day - One dollar a day. Within 6 to 7 months the funds for an XM along with a game that utilizes it is achieved.

 

If $2 a day can be set aside, then the time frame is 3 to 4 months/12 to 16 weeks. For a 25-30 year game console - a few weeks/months and the cost of an XM with a game is obtained without any sort of financial burden.

 

"Limited numbers" doesn't exist as Curt has made it clear that once the initial orders are shipped there will be more than enough to cover new demand and orders. Which after that point if more is required they will be made.

 

If that isn't believed and the impression is Curt is lying, that is a different story and not for this thread. Its own thread would probably not fare well either; especially with limited information and truly the full story or the person's background/character is not known making such a claim.

 

...this new homebrew-friendly card sounds like a very good alternate option.

Agreed.

[Jaynz]

"Price", really? To assist in affording an XM the advice is to set aside $1 a day - One dollar a day. Within 6 to 7 months the funds for an XM along with a game that utilizes it is achieved.

 

That's assuming that I'm prioritizing the XM in my 7800 collection, of course, and not other games, or even other consoles. Sure, you can say "That's your own damn fault" at that point, but as I said, the XM is a very specific fandom niche - and isn't likely to be any more of a mainstay for Atari fans any more than the equivalent 'super system is for the Colecovision fans. It's cool, but it's a niche within a niche so I'm VERY wary of turning the entire 7800 homebrew scene over to it, which is what's being openly discussed.

 

"Limited numbers" doesn't exist as Curt has made it clear that once the initial orders are shipped there will be more than enough to cover new demand and orders. Which after that point if more is required they will be made.

 

Curt isn't a factory, though. There's only going to be so many that he can put out, and there's only going to be so many people that will want a $200 XM (half way to a PS4 by itself, keep in mind) in the first place. (This is, of course, ignoring just how divisive the entire XM saga has become over the years.) That's really why I think if you're just looking to go up from 4K, that there should be other, more viable, solutions to look at.

 

Fortunately, it looks like we have one.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Jaynz

[Trebor]

The XM does not cost $200 that kind of 'discussion' is along the line of stating the XM has "limited availability".

Nonetheless, the positions and perspectives here appear clear and again all and any developments for the 7800 is indeed welcomed.

Looking to see the best yet to come in utilizing the 7800 to its fullest potential, and thanking all supporters and contributors, developers and programmers in keeping the 7800 alive and well.

[8th lutz]

Curt isn't a factory, though. There's only going to be so many that he can put out, and there's only going to be so many people that will want a $200 XM (half way to a PS4 by itself, keep in mind) in the first place. (This is, of course, ignoring just how divisive the entire XM saga has become over the years.) That's really why I think if you're just looking to go up from 4K, that there should be other, more viable, solutions to look at.

 

Fortunately, it looks like we have one.

The XM doesn't cost $200.00.

 

Proof: http://www.syzygycompany.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51

 

Curt also has plans making more XM units once the pre-order units are shipped.

Edited December 12, 2013 by 8th lutz

[dwane413]

The XM doesn't cost $200.00.

You're right, but maybe Jaynz got $200 from the average of Trebor's numbers:

If $2 a day can be set aside, then the time frame is 3 to 4 months/12 to 16 weeks.

$2 x 12 x 7 = 168

$2 x 16 x 7 = 224

Average = (168 + 224) / 2 = $196

 

Knowing very little about the XM, I thought it was more than $149.99 based on Trebor's post. His other figure of $1 a day for 6 to 7 months is over $180.

 

I like Qix. The last version I played was for DOS, but I can't remember what I first played it on.

[Trebor]

You're right, but maybe Jaynz got $200 from the average of Trebor's numbers:

 

$2 x 12 x 7 = 168

$2 x 16 x 7 = 224

Average = (168 + 224) / 2 = $196

 

Knowing very little about the XM, I thought it was more than $149.99 based on Trebor's post. His other figure of $1 a day for 6 to 7 months is over $180.

 

"To assist in affording an XM the advice is to set aside $1 a day - One dollar a day. Within 6 to 7 months the funds for an XM along with a game that utilizes it is achieved.

 

If $2 a day can be set aside, then the time frame is 3 to 4 months/12 to 16 weeks. For a 25-30 year game console - a few weeks/months and the cost of an XM with a game is obtained without any sort of financial burden".

 

The estimate figures were to signify purchasing an XM and a game that utilizes its features. To purchase just an XM would be less and of course quicker to achieve.

 

250 units accounted for so far ("In this niche of a niche market")...watch out for a possible negative spin on that.

 

I like Qix. The last version I played was for DOS, but I can't remember what I first played it on.

C64 maybe...That is the system I first played it on.

[dwane413]

The math was to signify purchasing an XM and a game that utilizes its features.

Yes, I missed that. I apologize. I'm a 2600 fan and know very little about the XM. I started reading this thread because I like Qix.

 

Sorry that I missed that money for the game was included in your figures.

 

Hope you have a nice day.

[Trebor]

Sorry that I missed that money for the game was included in your figures.

No need to apologize. I should have made it clearer.

There's a lot of info in these threads...lol.

 

Does this look familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyEzhntx9dY

[ZylonBane]

I'm a 2600 fan and know very little about the XM. I started reading this thread because I like Qix.

 

Then play the 2600 version!

 

[Jaynz]

I don't know why you guys felt the need to shit on me.. but, you know what? I'm done with all this. And I'm done with AtariAge, and I will never purchase from here again. I quit.

You guys have CLEARLY decided that you're willing to 'divide the fandom' by some level of 'importance' based on if you support the XM or not - and this hostility and hatred over the damn thing is just ridiculous. I do not want to be an 'Atari Fan' if it means you have to be an absolute prick about if you've bought the right piece of fan-made equipment or not. This is junior-high level maturity, and my nostalgia for Atari is only for the gaming experience, not reliving 7th grade.

[Jess Ragan]

I hope you're not paying too much attention to ZylonBane. (Nobody else does.)

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, by the way... I'm not really a 7800 fan so it's not a huge concern if Qix comes to that system. I also don't have an opinion about the XM technology, or even know enough about it to form one. What is it, a sound chip or something?

[8th lutz]

I hope you're not paying too much attention to ZylonBane. (Nobody else does.)

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, by the way... I'm not really a 7800 fan so it's not a huge concern if Qix comes to that system. I also don't have an opinion about the XM technology, or even know enough about it to form one. What is it, a sound chip or something?

The Atari 7800 XM is an add-on. The technology it has is vast improvement over the 7800.

 

The XM has 128k of ram, 2 additional sound chips, ability to record high scores, and 2 expansion ports.

The 2 sound chips the XM has is a pokey sound chip and a YM2151 sound chip.

 

The YM2151 sound chip is a an eight-channel, four-operator sound chip. It was yamaha's first single-chip fm synthesis.

 

The YM2151 sound chip has similarities to other several other Yamaha single-chip FM synthesizers including the YM2612, a sound chip that is built in the Sega Genesis. The YM2151 sound was used in a lot of arcade games from the 1980's by Sega, Data East, Konami, Capcom and Atari Games corp. The first arcade game the YM2151 was used was Marble Madness.

 

The expansion port of the XM is for keyboards or storage devices. The expansion port of the XM actually is something that GCC had planned for the Atari 7800 back in 1984, but was something that Jack Tramiel didn't buy from GCC. GCC matter fact had computer programs ready for the computer side of the Atari 7800 including a word processor program and a keyboard already built.

Edited December 12, 2013 by 8th lutz

[Jess Ragan]

Oh, an add-on. I'm not super fond of those... they always remind me of the 32X. When you introduce all that new technology, can you even consider it the same system? I thought the point was to love the consoles as they are, warts and all, rather than turning them into something they're not. If you're going to add 128K of RAM and extra sound channels, you might as well just forget the whole thing and buy a Turbografx-16 instead.

[ZylonBane]

See Jess, this is what happens when you flerp-de-derp into a thread without even knowing what's being discussed-- you end up agreeing with me.

[dwane413]

Does this look familiar?

It's been so long that I don't remember for sure, but that's probably it. I've played a lot of C64 games.

[mimo]

can someone lock this thread. it's gone horribly wrong.

this is the 7800 forum not the bloody jaguar _

[Rybags]

As has been stated, RAM is the holdback factor.

 

~4 or 8K for a 4-colour bitmap screen depending on 100v or 200v resolution.

 

The standard flood-fill algorithms are also somewhat memory hungry, apparently though there is a right-hand fill method which is similar to a maze solving method which uses virtually no workspace but is somewhat slow.

 

8K RAM might be enough to do the game considering bitmap, DLists, fill queues, workspace.

[Falconhood]

Qix and Kangaroo are two reasons I LOVED my 5200

[Jaynz]

Okay, I admit it, I lost my top for a bit.

Here's the thing. I'm sick of the XM. This isn't about Curt or even the XM itself, but what's happened to the community because of the XM. Suddenly, the already-small 7800 community has a big rift in it between the 'real 7800 fans who love the XM and will have everything for it in the scene' and the 'poseur 7800 fans who maybe will get some leftovers if they're lucky'. It's not about what the 7800 can do, or the games, or the technology, but your 'fandom status', and I despise that.

As I said, the XM isn't really that suitable for Qix, because Qix isn't that complex or graphically/musically-intensive of a game. For my saying no more than that, I was personally attacked twice. I certainly didn't deserve it, and it does not endear me to want to be a part of the 7800XM community. If anything, it makes me kinda want Curt to never get around to finishing it so we can go on just liking the 7800 without the drama! So some of you, before you eagerly draw the battle-lines over the damn thing, start typing again, please STOP for a minute and think about what you're actually doing to the 7800 scene. It's not helpful.