Mindfield Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Just to be clear, I would only sell the cart itself, probably for about $200.00. It would be up to you to obtain the MMC and way to write to it. Some of you may already have flash card reader/writer devices or MMCs for use with cameras, etc. Chad Okay, forgive me for being stupid, but my digital camera takes 3.5" floppy disks. Is an MMC the "memory stick" I've seen that some cameras have? I take it you can buy the memory stick and the reader for it seperately without having to own one of the cameras. MMCs (and their close cousin SDCs) are widely available at most electronic stores, camera shops, etc. They're small cards slightly taller than a postage stamp and about as thick a dime -- smaller and lighter than compact flash cards and Sony's memory sticks. They're commonly used in modern cameras, PDAs and other electronic devices that require storage. PC/Mac card readers are also widely available, including multiformat readers that do MMC/SDC/CF/MS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 What about the use of SDcards? They're essentially the same thing, but can come in larger configurations (up to the recently developed 1GB card). With every Atari 2600 and 7800 game, hack, demo, alternate version, and what have you not even filling a 32MB MMC card, I'm trying to imagine the utility of wanting something bigger than 128MB. As for SD, last I heard (and unlike MMC) you had to pay license fees and/or royalties and sign an NDA to implement something using it (since the whole point of SD over MMC from a design perspective is hardware enforceable copy protection and Sandisk doesn't want its licensees to be able to help the digital rights restoration movement.) I can't imagine that being a good thing for such a limited run homebrew product even if it'll let us store the entire 2600/7800 collections 16 times over instead of only 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Another problem with SD is that, unlike MMC, the specs are not publicly avialable (at least not that I'm aware of). You have to join the association to get them. I know its a superset of the MMC protocol, but I have no other details. I decided that a MMC is plenty large enough for this purpose and there was simply no need to go through any hassles possibly involved with SD. Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Okay, I've got a question. could this be used on a 2600, if you're just playing 2600 games? Or does it HAVE to be on a 7800 whether you're playing 7800 games or 2600 games? Either way, it sounds cool, and I'll try to scrounge up some money. It will only work in a 7800. Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Actually that's why I put the serial connection on there, to make it still function as a development platform. If the serial connection works ok I hope to be able to set it up so that it can enter a development mode where one downloads games over serial rather than through the MMC. Not entirely certain on any details or if this will happen. I really like the idea of a fully functional serial port because then you could write games that used the POKEY for both sound and other forms of interfacing. If standard libraries were written for POKEY serial hardware handlers then they could be like an extension to the BIOS and provide a more Atari 400/800 like backbone to the 7800. Yes it will be able to do Starpath RAM. But it does not have an audio connection so it would have to load Starpath games like the emulators do. Probably a replacement BIOS would have to be written for each multiload game that copies the correct code to the correct areas for each game. This frees me from having to license the product though as no part of the Starpath BIOS would be included. How much RAM does this have on board? I know some 7800 games use extra RAM. It wouldn't write back to the MMC for RAM, right? That would wear out the MMC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Atari_Warlord Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Holy Cow! I completely missed this thread until the cross post. Count me in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 MMCs (and their close cousin SDCs) are widely available at most electronic stores, camera shops, etc. They're small cards slightly taller than a postage stamp and about as thick a dime -- smaller and lighter than compact flash cards and Sony's memory sticks. They're commonly used in modern cameras, PDAs and other electronic devices that require storage. PC/Mac card readers are also widely available, including multiformat readers that do MMC/SDC/CF/MS. Cool. So let's say Schell's project runs about $200. Will I be able to get a card catcher/reader and a standard size MMC for under $50? Do they come with USB standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 You can get the reader/writers dirt cheap, here is an example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...&category=18872 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+rdemming Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Hi Chad, I love to have this "toy". So sign me up. 512Kb SRAM for running games. Why do you need 512Kb of SRAM? The largest 7800 game is 144Kb so a 256Kb flash chip is more than enough. I doubt if there ever will be an homebrew game that requires more than 256Kb 256Kb Flash Ram for holding OS. Flash RAM can be updated from files on the MMC. 256Kb for the OS? Do you really need that much for the OS. The complete OS for the Atari ST (including GEM windowing system) was only 192Kb. Or are you planning to write a complete Windows based OS for the 7800 I don't mind that much memory but I doubt you will ever need that much. But if using smaller memory sizes has little effect on the cost price then why not. Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Just to be clear, I would only sell the cart itself, probably for about $200.00. It would be up to you to obtain the MMC and way to write to it. Some of you may already have flash card reader/writer devices or MMCs for use with cameras, etc. Ahh, I misread that, although I did assume I'd have to go out and buy an MMC and MMC reader myself. It's too bad it doesn't have a CompactFlash slot, as I have a ton of CF cards and devices that use them already. Thanks for the clarification.. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Why do you need 512Kb of SRAM? The largest 7800 game is 144Kb so a 256Kb flash chip is more than enough. I doubt if there ever will be an homebrew game that requires more than 256Kb SRAM is most readily available in 1Mb and 4Mb densities, which translates to either 128kB or 512kB. Using one 512kB chip is much easier to fit on the board and costs about the same as buying two 128kB chips. (At least in small quanitites.) 256Kb Flash Ram for holding OS. Flash RAM can be updated from files on the MMC. Actually the 256kB just happens to be the amount of ROM in the main boot chip that includes a whole lot of stuff all rolled into one. They make a smaller slightly cheaper version with only 128kB, but it was unavailable at the time I ordered parts. Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 How much RAM does this have on board? I know some 7800 games use extra RAM. It wouldn't write back to the MMC for RAM, right? That would wear out the MMC. 512kB SRAM. Games do not run from the MMC. Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahsMyBro Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Well, I passed on the CC because of finances, and while this thing looks absoultely awesome I don't think I'd be able to buy one of these either. So, count me in your list of very entusiastic, interested admirers, but unfortunately don't count on me when you're estimating potential sales. But, hell, if you have a contest with one of these as a prize, I'll likely be all over it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 But, hell, if you have a contest with one of these as a prize, I'll likely be all over it! Well, I don't really do contests. But if I do end up making more of these I have a certain unusual trade offer in mind that could allow someone to score one of these very cheaply... (And before anyone goes there, no it doesn't involve physical contact or anything along those lines. ) Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Hey, i'd certainly like to buy one. That's a good price for something that can use a flash card alternative to other conventional means of D/L games to it. As long as you'll take a check or Money Order, as my credit card only allows a $200 limit. Sign me up, for sure. Oh, and if someone wants to sell their cuttle cart to buy one of these, I'd be willing to buy one, I was to late when they ran innitially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 How much RAM does this have on board? I know some 7800 games use extra RAM. It wouldn't write back to the MMC for RAM, right? That would wear out the MMC. 512kB SRAM. Games do not run from the MMC. Chad Does that mean that the full cart address range visible to the 7800 is always writable all the time regardless of whether the banking scheme you are emulating was intended to be read-only? That could be really useful, especially if some of the 7800 banking schemes allow you to swap in and out smaller chunks leaving the "ROM" code intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I don't mind that much memory but I doubt you will ever need that much. Just look at what Andrew Davie is doing in 32KB for the 2600. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 512KB game for the 2600 with Andrew's graphics mode animations in it. More memory opens up some interesting possibilities. I'm all for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Just look at what Andrew Davie is doing in 32KB for the 2600. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 512KB game for the 2600 with Andrew's graphics mode animations in it. More memory opens up some interesting possibilities. I'm all for that. The thing to keep in mind though is that Andrew himself says he's driven himself nuts and pushed himself to the wall getting moving full color graphics to work on 2600; and even when he succeeded the result is (albiet impressive) very flickery at best. Anybody without Andrew's mind-bogglingly thorough knowledge of 2600 programming is not going to be able to achieve these results no matter how much memory a cart holds, and certainly won't be able to make the results look better than he did. I think 512K would open up the possibilities for a bank switched game with multiple screens of display (something like Dark Chambers or Secret Quest) but I wouldn't expect more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Kaboomer Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Add me to your "buy" list! Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I would def be interested as well - I was thinking about teh Divinci but with 7800 support in addition to 2600 this appears to be the better design for now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindfield Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Cool. So let's say Schell's project runs about $200. Will I be able to get a card catcher/reader and a standard size MMC for under $50? Do they come with USB standard? Of course. Multicard readers are available in my area (Canada) for $50. I'd imagine you can get cheap USB SD/MMC readers for $20-$30 USD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasty Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Hey Chad! Amazing project.. Ok, I was bored and I decided the 7800 needed some love. So I put together what I think is a pretty nifty reconfigurable multicart for the 7800. Wish I could be able to come out with something similar when I'm bored I don't know if it will become a product or not. If it does, I'll definitely get one! Greets, Rasty.- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Max Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 I am soooooooooooooo there!!!!!!!! Count me in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 If this prduct does come out I would be interested in it (now I have to get my 7800 back up and running (need a 7800 P.S) ) Dan Iacovelli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted March 11, 2003 Author Share Posted March 11, 2003 Just a quick update: Still no menu, no serial, no pokey. Can read and load files from FAT, both for loading games and configuring FPGA. Initial successful testing with the following cartridge formats: 2600: 2K,4K,Commavid,F8,F6,F6SC,FA,FE,3F,E0,E7,Megaboy 7800: 16K,32K,48K,128K,144K,128K+16KSRAM,Activision,Absolute Small problem with F6 - Road Runner doesn't seem to want to run. Other tested F6 and F6SC games run fine. Odd as bankswitching is same as on Cuttle Cart (where it runs). Possibly a startup state problem. I'll track it down eventually. Anyone outthere with an actual Road Runner cart have any problems using it on a 7800? Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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