Emulated "Real Machines" Your Opinions

[TPA5]

I was listening to the Retro Computing Roundtable podcast, and they posed an interesting question I thought might be fun to chat about here.

 

The question was, if there came a time where you could get a system, whether it be a Commodore, Atari, TI, etc, where it looked 100% original, but was a "new" machine with basically an emulator inside, would you enjoy it as much as a true original system? So the machine would be absolutely authentic outside, and inside would just be a small computer that emulates the machine completely indistinguishably from the original. For the sake of discussion, we are assuming that is emulates everything perfectly, so this is not a discussion about the feasibility of said machine, simply a question of could you enjoy a machine like that as much as a true original?

 

 

Personally, I could not. It's why I work to collect. I think emulation does have a place, and I think the massive efforts to dump cartridges, floppies, and more is important. However for myself personally, part of the draw for me in terms of classic computers and classic gaming is the history behind it. That your using a machine 15, 25, even 30 years old or more fascinates me to no end. The real soul of those machines is the thousands of keystrokes they've stood up to, the thousands of hours of use, the programming, the gaming, the spreadsheets, the family budgets. To me, classic computing is about living history with these machines. Using an emulated version, even one that's indistinguishable, would take that away from me. That's why I'm working at building retro DOS and Win9x machines, and why I refuse to just "use emulators" to play 2600 games, or use DOS Box for my favorite PC games. I understand the importance and merit of emulation of those systems, especially since in the years to come they'll become more and more scarce. Still, for me I try my very best to acquire the original machines, carts, cassettes, and diskettes.

 

So how about you fine folks? Could you live with a "perfectly emulated" system, right down to the case and keyboards with a little computer inside running the guts, or do you prefer running on true hardware?

[Hatta]

If you can't tell the difference in an ABX test, then of course you'd enjoy it the same.

[Omega-TI]

I was listening to the Retro Computing Roundtable podcast, and they posed an interesting question I thought might be fun to chat about here.

 

The question was, if there came a time where you could get a system, whether it be a Commodore, Atari, TI, etc, where it looked 100% original, but was a "new" machine with basically an emulator inside, would you enjoy it as much as a true original system?

 

 

The nice thing about "Retro Computing" is that is can be so many things to so many different people. Some like to collect, others are into the hardware, still others are into programming the old stuff, and yes others just like to play games.

 

My answer is no. My PERSONAL experience is that no emulator is 100% perfect on everything. Some work with some programs but not others, some cannot use printers correctly or the RS-232, still others have timing or hang up issues. Some emulators are better than others and some are just a 'Mess'.

 

For me, I'm not into the headaches of trying to get something to work or be 'just as good', so I figure, "Why not go for the real thing?" On the real thing I can run ALL the software, the way it was intended to run, without all issues or headaches that get in the way of my enjoyment.

 

I'm not a 100% purist either, I LOVE to see what things I can get "The Old Box" to do that it was not capable of before. I've done a VGA upgrade, hooked it up to my PC as a file server and other things like that, but it's still "REAL IRON".

[TPA5]

If you can't tell the difference in an ABX test, then of course you'd enjoy it the same.

 

But if you knew that it was being emulated, would you enjoy it the same? The question is would you enjoy it the same, personally. Not would others enjoy it the same

 

 

 

The nice thing about "Retro Computing" is that is can be so many things to so many different people. Some like to collect, others are into the hardware, still others are into programming the old stuff, and yes others just like to play games.

 

My answer is no. My PERSONAL experience is that no emulator is 100% perfect on everything. Some work with some programs but not others, some cannot use printers correctly or the RS-232, still others have timing or hang up issues. Some emulators are better than others and some are just a 'Mess'.

 

For me, I'm not into the headaches of trying to get something to work or be 'just as good', so I figure, "Why not go for the real thing?" On the real thing I can run ALL the software, the way it was intended to run, without all issues or headaches that get in the way of my enjoyment.

 

I'm not a 100% purist either, I LOVE to see what things I can get "The Old Box" to do that it was not capable of before. I've done a VGA upgrade, hooked it up to my PC as a file server and other things like that, but it's still "REAL IRON".

 

You make a good point when you point out that you make "The Old Box" (I like that phrase!) do things it couldn't do previously. Your changing the original intent of the machine, but as you said your still using "Real Iron" (That's two phrases I'm going to use from now on!)

Edited January 13, 2014 by TPA5

[Mr SQL]

Great topic! I think it Depends.

 

I've seen a CoCo3 implemented in a FPGA and packaged in a CoCo3 box that indeed had the same feel as a CoCo3, but I think the CoCo3 lost out by poorly emulating the SAM and the VDG with the GIME chip (no more colourful higher res semigraphics text modes) which made the CoCo3 feel like emulation even though it looked like a real CoCo.

 

By contrast the C128 felt like a real c64. The DTV is something similar to the FPGA CoCo3 where most of the c64 is recreated but the SID is noticeably off; it feels close enough people mod the form factor back. What I don't understand is a modern PC being put into the c64 form factor; doesn't that just make one wish the PC was a c64?

 

[Omega-TI]

 

You make a good point when you point out that you make "The Old Box" (I like that phrase!) do things it couldn't do previously. Your changing the original intent of the machine, but as you said your still using "Real Iron" (That's two phrases I'm going to use from now on!)

 

I agree some may look upon it that way. With so many people in the world, I'm sure there will be differing opinions.

To me (a few upgrades) just multiplies my enjoyment factor. I guess I would use the example of the PC. If I bought a PC with a crappy video card, and I swapped it out for a real nice video card, the PC will still be a PC.

[Omega-TI]

Great topic! I think it Depends.

 

I've seen a CoCo3 implemented in a FPGA and packaged in a CoCo3 box that indeed had the same feel as a CoCo3, but I think the CoCo3 lost out by poorly emulating the SAM and the VDG with the GIME chip (no more colourful higher res semigraphics text modes) which made the CoCo3 feel like emulation even though it looked like a real CoCo.

 

By contrast the C128 felt like a real c64. The DTV is something similar to the FPGA CoCo3 where most of the c64 is recreated but the SID is noticeably off; it feels close enough people mod the form factor back. What I don't understand is a modern PC being put into the c64 form factor; doesn't that just make one wish the PC was a c64?

 

 

On the TI-99/4A we are able to use a 9918 VDP replacement/upgrade called the F18A. It behaves EXACTLY like the original chip in normal mode, except the video output is in VGA and that can be used on any modern monitor or TV. I can tell you the enhanced video really makes a guy enjoy the hobby all that much more! Now if you want to access the 'extra' features of the chip you'll have to turn them on with a software key.

[Goochman]

I think it would be awesome to have an Atari 800 in original box/packaging to open with an HDMI connector for my TV, 4 joystick ports, modern small power supply connector, and built in SD reader that worked like a 1050 drive. Id have no problem playing that and enjoying it just the same since I wouldnt have to lug out a ton of stuff to play and it would operate exactly like my original.

[roland p]

Maybe this thread interest you: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/218645-when-is-an-atari-no-longer-an-atari/

[Seob]

The real soul of those machines is the thousands of keystrokes they've stood up to, the thousands of hours of use, the programming, the gaming, the spreadsheets, the family budgets.

 

Sounds like you wouldn't buy new old stock either. Just kidding.

If it acks 100 percent the same, with the same hardware bugs as the original, why not. Just face it, those machines we love will not have an ethernal live. Eventually u have to go the emulated road. Let's hope they will get 100 percent working emulated machines, before there are no original machines left.

But i'm pretty sure, most original hardware can outlive members of the forum when taken care of.

[TPA5]

Sounds like you wouldn't buy new old stock either. Just kidding.

If it acks 100 percent the same, with the same hardware bugs as the original, why not. Just face it, those machines we love will not have an ethernal live. Eventually u have to go the emulated road. Let's hope they will get 100 percent working emulated machines, before there are no original machines left.

But i'm pretty sure, most original hardware can outlive members of the forum when taken care of.

Actually I don't buy new old stock haha. I did that once with a Sega Genesis, and it sucked because I couldn't bring myself to open it and 'ruin' it, but I am a user-collector, I use what I collect. So I ended up trading it to my friend. It's true I'm sure one day the emulated road will be the only one! I do truly hope the generations of tomorrow have the opportunity to have preserved original hardware.

[Dripfree]

This is one of the those questions that can and has be applied to many different subjects. If you can't tell the difference is it just as good as the real thing? It's like sex bots in sci fi flicks. Or heck even fake boobs! Well I guess my mind is in the gutter. Anyway I think the truth for me would be ignorance is bliss. Once I knew it wasn't the real thing it just wouldn't be as fun. It also reminds me of a couple songs that I believe apply to this subject. So Ill let Radiohead And Third Eye Blind sum it up.

 

Third Eye Blind - Non Dairy Creamer

http://youtu.be/Fk2VIESdwyk

 

Radiohead - Fake Plastic Trees

http://youtu.be/pKd06s1LNik

Edited January 14, 2014 by Dripfree

[gamecat80]

The question was, if there came a time where you could get a system, whether it be a Commodore, Atari, TI, etc, where it looked 100% original, but was a "new" machine with basically an emulator inside, would you enjoy it as much as a true original system? So the machine would be absolutely authentic outside, and inside would just be a small computer that emulates the machine completely indistinguishably from the original. For the sake of discussion, we are assuming that is emulates everything perfectly, so this is not a discussion about the feasibility of said machine, simply a question of could you enjoy a machine like that as much as a true original?

 

 

Yes, absolutely. If the emulation of the original hardware is perfect (sound, graphics, behavior, etc) and even the outside looked like the original system, I would be quite happy with it even knowing it wasn't the "real thing". Actually I would promote this because, lets face it -- many of these old classic systems are 30+ years old. Many of them have already crapped out, and it's only a matter of time before the rest eventually crap out. Not a question of IF but WHEN that happens.

And if the new technology looks and sounds exactly like the original (perfect emulation) AND even does away with some of the issues of the originals (bad power supply, bad RF, overheating, etc), that would make it even better, imo.